Russia fires on Ukranian vessels

nullzero · 25-11-2018 9:36pm

gandalf wrote: »

Ah the apologists are online at last

I'm not a Russian apologist, but painting them as bogeymen is lazy and circumvents logic.

glen123 · 25-11-2018 9:38pm

If Poroshenko declares the state of emergency, will elections go ahead in March? He has no chance of winning as Timoshenko is way ahead.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:38pm

nullzero wrote: »

The rogue state Russia who singlehandedly destroyed the ISIL/ISIS califate and the threat it posed to the world while the rest of the world stood by and did nothing (other than supply ISIS with American made weapons).

Trump is a cretin but had Hillary been elected there'd already be a hot war between the USA and Russia.
This will happen eventually, you can't pass up an opportunity for a good war can you? Money to be made from the suffering of millions.

Bernie was the man.

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:39pm

nullzero wrote: »

I'm not a Russian apologist, but painting them as bogeymen is lazy and circumvents logic.

In the case of the Ukraine and Crimea they are the aggressor and as you label them the "bogeyman". This isn't about Syria and this isn't about US Russian Relations.

Do you think Russia's actions in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine were warranted?

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:39pm

glen123 wrote: »

If Poroshenko declares the state of emergency, will elections go ahead in March? He has no chance of winning as Timoshenko is way ahead.

Interesting point.

P_1 · 25-11-2018 9:41pm

gandalf wrote: »

Yes it would but given their behaviour something needs to give and I'd prefer that sort of response to a military one wouldn't you?

Without a shadow of a doubt. Alas I fear theres no way of de escalating this.

Ukraine are likely going to declare war on Russia, at best we will have Russian tanks on the Dnieper if that happens. I sincerely hope no EU countries back them up military because that will only lead to escalation

namloc1980 · 25-11-2018 9:41pm

gandalf wrote: »

Well given their recent form it hard to see beyond them being the aggressor here. But I did add the caveat of "proven".

Reports that the Ukrainian naval vessels that tried to go through the Kerch Strait did so without informing their Russian counterparts, as the custom is they should. If that's true then Ukraine have brought this on themselves.

4068ac1elhodqr · 25-11-2018 9:41pm

Raheem Euro wrote: »

I take it then notwithstanding the verbal diarrhea you have no comment to make on whether nuclear winter was 1970s myth.

I take it then notwithstanding you have no actual proof of the aftermath of <22,000 big hot sticks going off in a short period of time.

No one knows for sure the results of such a dynamic end-times sceanrio taking place, other than it sure won't be fun-times.

Would it take a day, week or month to recover? Likely it would take a season (3mths at least) to get back to some sort of normality of netflix 'n chill.

Perhaps that's where the 'winter' refernece comes from. A super-volcano may deliver similar results, only difference wouldn't be the inconvience of isotopes.

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 9:42pm

glen123 wrote: »

If Poroshenko declares the state of emergency, will elections go ahead in March? He has no chance of winning as Timoshenko is way ahead.

Seems like he doesnt want these elections to go ahead. Would Timoshenko be more pro Russian?

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:43pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Reports that the Ukrainian naval vessels that tried to go through the Kerch Strait did so without informing their Russian counterparts, as the custom is they should. If that's true then Ukraine have brought this on themselves.

And you would have to wonder why.

I had thought there was an agreed treaty about both nations using the the sea of Azov?

namloc1980 · 25-11-2018 9:43pm

P_1 wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt. Alas I fear theres no way of de escalating this.

Ukraine are likely going to declare war on Russia, at best we will have Russian tanks on the Dnieper if that happens. I sincerely hope no EU countries back them up military because that will only lead to escalation

Where's this coming from?

Raheem Euro · 25-11-2018 9:44pm

Belen Lazy Smallness wrote: »

I take it then notwithstanding you have no actual proof of the aftermath of <22,000 big hot sticks going off in a short period of time.

No one knows for sure the results of such a dynamic end-times sceanrio taking place, other than it sure won't be fun-times.

Would it take a day, week or month to recover? Likely it would take a season (3mths at least) to get back to some sort of normality of netflix 'n chill.

Perhaps that's where the 'winter' refernece comes from. A super-volcano may deliver similar results, only difference wouldn't be the inconvience of isotopes.

Sorry I haven't got my Sh1te to English Dictionary with me. A simple yes or no would suffice.

P_1 · 25-11-2018 9:45pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Where's this coming from?

https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1066802834421747718?s=19

badtoro · 25-11-2018 9:45pm

Line up the various military assets of both nations, I can't see Ukraine poking the Bear in the eye tbh.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:46pm

Belen Lazy Smallness wrote: »

I take it then notwithstanding you have no actual proof of the aftermath of <22,000 big hot sticks going off in a short period of time.

No one knows for sure the results of such a dynamic end-times sceanrio taking place, other than it sure won't be fun-times.

Would it take a day, week or month to recover? Likely it would take a season (3mths at least) to get back to some sort of normality of netflix 'n chill.

Perhaps that's where the 'winter' refernece comes from. A super-volcano may deliver similar results, only difference wouldn't be the inconvience of isotopes.

No. The models still agree, AFAIK.
It would span a few growing seasons.
Enough to cause widespread famine.

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 9:46pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Reports that the Ukrainian naval vessels that tried to go through the Kerch Strait did so without informing their Russian counterparts, as the custom is they should. If that's true then Ukraine have brought this on themselves.

So the Russians had every right to disable the vessels. No deaths reported so far so job well done on that note.

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:47pm

P_1 wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt. Alas I fear theres no way of de escalating this.

Ukraine are likely going to declare war on Russia, at best we will have Russian tanks on the Dnieper if that happens. I sincerely hope no EU countries back them up military because that will only lead to escalation

Well the people keeping Putin in power are the Oligarch class in Russia, removing Russia from SWIFT and restricting their ability to travel will put him under far more pressure than any military action. Military action would play into his hands and help improve his popularity.

This is probably happening because his popularity is waning in Russia especially with young people. Nothing like a bit of a war situation to help boost an autocrats poll figures.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:47pm

badtoro wrote: »

Line up the various military assets of both nations, I can't see Ukraine poking the Bear in the eye tbh.

I'd they're hoping for Western support, they're dreaming.

namloc1980 · 25-11-2018 9:47pm

P_1 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1066802834421747718?s=19

What kind of crazy talk is that? Bit of grandstanding I'd say. They'd be crushed in a war with Russia, and nobody is going to come to their aid.

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:48pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Reports that the Ukrainian naval vessels that tried to go through the Kerch Strait did so without informing their Russian counterparts, as the custom is they should. If that's true then Ukraine have brought this on themselves.

Reports from who thou?

4068ac1elhodqr · 25-11-2018 9:50pm

Raheem Euro wrote: »

Sorry I haven't got my Sh1te to English Dictionary with me. A simple yes or no would suffice.

Sorry haven't got a time-machine handy, perhaps you could kindly pull next weeks lotto numbers from your posterior for us all, if you have flux-capacitor already in use.

i.e. No one knows for sure, but the aftermath of a global WW3 would more likely than not be a 'winter' event, both meteorological and psychologically.

Even if you could still grow green leaf vegtables, they may taste 'a bit funny'.

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 9:51pm

gandalf wrote: »

Reports from who thou?

If its not from Sky News or the BBC its not true right?

Gatling · 25-11-2018 9:52pm

nullzero wrote: »

The rogue state Russia who singlehandedly destroyed the ISIL/ISIS califate and the threat it posed to the world while the rest of the world stood by and did nothing

Pure bolloxolgy it's been repeatedly proven russia didn't wipe out isis or anything like it .

But hey

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:52pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Seems like he doesnt want these elections to go ahead. Would Timoshenko be more pro Russian?

I doubt it. She supports joining the EU and NATO.

namloc1980 · 25-11-2018 9:53pm

Video of the ramming incident earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcTSDaCg5xA

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:53pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

If its not from Sky News or the BBC its not true right?

That's not what I asked. I asked who reported what namloc1980 had said.

Gatling · 25-11-2018 9:54pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Seems like the Ukranian navy were sailing there ships through the Kerch strait without any Russian authorisation? Why would they do that?

They have shared and open access to the Aziz sea ,

russia blocked all access first

Why would russia do such a thing?

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:54pm

Some people talk about Ukraine's fascist tendencies.

Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong.

But this incident can easily add fuel to that fire.
As it will also to the narrative of the Russian aggressor.

https://twitter.com/WimLuyckx/status/1066810756950368256?s=19

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 9:55pm

gandalf wrote: »

That's not what I asked. I asked who reported what namloc1980 had said.

RT

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:55pm

Gatling wrote: »

They have shared and open access to the Aziz sea ,

russia blocked all access first

Why would russia do such a thing?

Yes, this is what I want to understand.
There is a bilateral treaty of free access, yeah?

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 9:55pm

Gatling wrote: »

They have shared and open access to the Aziz sea ,

russia blocked all access first

Why would russia do such a thing?

When did they block access?

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:57pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

RT

Ah direct Russian Propaganda so.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 9:57pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

When did they block access?

Today.

They placed a big ship, blocking access.

Gatling · 25-11-2018 9:58pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Yes, this is what I want to understand.
There is a bilateral treaty of free access, yeah?

Yes.

Now remember that russia already had a nonaggression and friendship treaty with Ukraine signed once Ukraine handed all of its nuclear weapons to Russia ,

Followed by the invasion , occupation and annexation of parts of sovereign Ukraine by Russia.

Ukraine are such naughty boys and girls they sent a tug boat to invade russia

gandalf · 25-11-2018 9:58pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Today.

They placed a big ship, blocking access.

Sounds like the usual orchestrated operation to illicit a response and that is then justified for their over the top actions.

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 10:01pm

gandalf wrote: »

Ah direct Russian Propaganda so.

So you class the BBC as a British/Western propaganda news outlet? Seems hard to get the truth these days from our media.

glen123 · 25-11-2018 10:02pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Seems like he doesnt want these elections to go ahead. Would Timoshenko be more pro Russian?

She previously agreed a record high gas price for Ukraine with Putin when she was a PM:) .

She is not any bettter than Poroshenko (all money making exercise for both of them) but she is likely to make a deal with Putin to stop all this (with Russia keeping Crimea officially... obviously)

Gatling · 25-11-2018 10:02pm

gandalf wrote: »

Sounds like the usual orchestrated operation to illicit a response and that is then justified for their over the top actions.

Going by the ramming video , russian ship deliberately rammed the slow moving tug boat,

But I get the feelings we will get an alternative view on here

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 10:04pm

So, Russias blockade is illegal under international law?

The Ru account is that the vessels entered Russian waters. Is that because they don't recognise the international ruling?

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 10:05pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Today.

They placed a big ship, blocking access.

They didnt fire on the Ukranian navy ships for nothing. Most reports coming out are saying the vessels were going through the Kerch Strait without Russian clearance. No country would tolerate that, let alone two that have been at each others throats for the best part of the last decade.

What would happen to Iranian navy vessels if they entered Israeli waters without permission?

SafeSurfer · 25-11-2018 10:06pm

P_1 wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt. Alas I fear theres no way of de escalating this.

Ukraine are likely going to declare war on Russia, at best we will have Russian tanks on the Dnieper if that happens. I sincerely hope no EU countries back them up military because that will only lead to escalation

The new Russian T 14s could get a baptism of fire.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 10:06pm

pri wrote: »

I'd like to sift through all the rumours shíte and ask two questions:

Has martial law been declared in Ukraine?

What's happening in Donetsk? There were some earlier reports of a situation developing there.

Reports of martial law, on twitter. Nothing I've seen on the wires yet.

The Donetsk escalation seems to be fake; Russian disinfo.

gandalf · 25-11-2018 10:06pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

So you class the BBC as a British/Western propaganda news outlet? Seems hard to get the truth these days from our media.

Not to the same extent as RT. Given what we have seen from them RT should be viewed as the disinformation arm of the Russian State.

But I do agree one should never take one source as their only source of news. I always look at multiple sources for stories.

However you also look at news using the lens of the past behaviour of regimes as well. Based on that premise this is another aggressive action by a proven Rogue state that is undermining the Ukrainian state.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 10:07pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

They didnt fire on the Ukranian navy ships for nothing. Most reports coming out are saying the vessels were going through the Kerch Strait without Russian clearance. No country would tolerate that, let alone two that have been at each others throats for the best part of the last decade.

What would happen to Iranian navy vessels if they entered Israeli waters without permission?

This is why I'm seeking clarification on the treaty, was it not supposed to be a shared area?

Gatling · 25-11-2018 10:08pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

So, Russias blockade is illegal under international law?

The Ru account is that the vessels entered Russian waters. Is that because they don't recognise the international ruling?

Highly likely,

It's going to be a massive misinformation campaign for the next few days,

Russians don't like the idea of democratic Ukraine along side democratic Europe

Gringo180 · 25-11-2018 10:09pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

This is why I'm seeking clarification on the treaty, was it not supposed to be a shared area?

Obviously not once Crimea was back in the hands of the Russian federation.

Tigerbaby · 25-11-2018 10:13pm

Gatling wrote: »

Highly likely,

It's going to be a massive misinformation campaign for the next few days,

Russians don't like the idea of democratic Ukraine along side democratic Europe

and is Russia not democratic?

or have I missed something?

God Bless Putin.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 10:13pm

Gatling wrote: »

Highly likely,

It's going to be a massive misinformation campaign for the next few days,

Russians don't like the idea of democratic Ukraine along side democratic Europe

Agreed too Gatling.

Although I might question the 'democratic' nature of all sides on this one!

thomil · 25-11-2018 10:15pm

pri wrote: »

Could this genuinely result in an all-out military confrontation between Russia and Ukraine?

If it does, and if Russia goes all in, Ukraine stands a snowball's chance in hell. The army itself is in a relatively good condition, but the navy is a joke, even the Irish Navy could beat them, and the air force is pale shadow of its former self, with only 38 fighter aircraft and 25 ground attack aircraft at their disposal. That means that Russia will have no trouble establishing air superiority in case of all out war. Any rash action on Kiev's part would be tantamount to suicide.

igCorcaigh · 25-11-2018 10:17pm

pri wrote: »

Could this genuinely result in an all-out military confrontation between Russia and Ukraine?

I'm no expert. Seems unlikely, unless Russia targets Ukrainian territory proper. Then, all gloves are off.

But remember, Ukraine has been known to overplay the threat for many years now. The west has still not bought in.

Russia fires on Ukranian vessels

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