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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    There's a notice in the irish Examiner today to the effect that Galway Co Co, on request from the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and on behalf of an Inter-Departmental Group, is facilitating an independent consultation process in respect of five (5) options set out in a report from an Expert Technical Group set up by the Minister in june 2017 on what could be done in respect of the infant remains found at the Mother and Baby Home in Tuam.

    The actual notice is longer worded and is titled CONSULTATION ON THE OPTIONS AND APPROPRIATE COURSES OF ACTION AVAILABLE TO GOVERNEMNT AT THE SITE OF THE FORMER MOTHER & BABY HOME, TUAM, CO GALWAY.

    Precis of NOTICE in the paper [which I'd advise readers of this post to actually check/read the Examiner notice itself in case I've left out an important point].

    Submissions are invited from the public, via Email, [in respect of the five (5) options] to TuamConsultation@galwaycoco.ie or by post to Tuam Consultation, C/O Galway County Council, Áras an Chontae, Prospect Hill, Galway H91 H6KX by 4PM on Friday, 16th march 2018.

    If you would like a paper copy of the report from the E.T.G. AND the template for submissions is available on WWW.galway.ie/TuamConsultation or by phoning +353 (0)91 509561.

    There will be independently facilitated consultations events to be held in Tuam and Dublin between the 1st and 9th of March 2018. Contact the phone No +353 (0)91 509561 or the Email address TuamConsultation@galwaycoco.ie by Friday 2nd March 2018 to register or attend a consultation event.

    Edit: BTW, the date of 16 March 2018 for submissions is correct, even though it's after the 2nd - 9th March 2018 events.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/07/25/tuam-medical-certs-death-certs-and-dr-thomas-bodkin-costello/

    456677.jpg
    A ceremony for the lost children of Tuam on Monday night;
    Lawyer Kevin Higgins represents some families of former residents of mother and baby homes.

    He also represents 73-year-old Peter Mulryan, chairperson of the Tuam Home Survivors’ Network, whose infant sister Marian Bridget Mulryan is believed to be among the 796 children recorded as having died at the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam, Co Galway between 1925 and 1961.

    Mr Higgins has also previously said that the Attorney General has the power to order a coroner to hold inquests into the deaths of any remains exhumed at the Tuam site.

    Over the past four years researching the Tuam mother and baby home, Mr Higgins has looked at the role of the home’s Chief Medical Officer, from when it opened in 1925 until 1950, Dr Thomas Bodkin Costello, whom Mr Higgins describes as a “local worthy, doctor, enthusiastic antiquarian and by popular acclaim, all-round ‘good egg'”.

    Dr Costello was a physician to institutions such as the Royal Irish Constabulary, the Post Office and later the Civic Guard (An Garda Siochana) of the Irish Free State. He was elected President of the Old Tuam Society, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the National Museum of Ireland has items from his personal collection. He was married to Senator Eileen Costello.

    He was also friends with the first president of the Irish Free State and founder of the Gaelic League Douglas Hyde, and poet WB Yeats.

    Mr Higgins found, of the 796 death certificates related to Tuam, which say starvation or marasmus is the certified cause of death in 14 cases, only two inquests are recorded – one in 1925 and another in 1928.

    He also found there were only three post-mortem examinations – one in 1926, another in 1927 and a third in 1952, with the latter taking place after Dr Costello’s retirement.

    Mr Higgins also found there is no evidence of Dr Costello having attended a single birth or death of a child at the home.

    In a a heavily-researched piece outlining some of his research, Mr Higgins writes:

    Dr Costello belonged to comfortable and deeply conservative Catholic middle class, which redirected Irish Nationalism in the years after 1916.

    By the time the Irish Free State came into being, the revolutionaries, poets and dreamers were largely dead or quite literally outlawed and supressed with a ferocity that matched anything British imperialism had inflicted on the Irish populace.

    What is chilling however, is Dr Costello’s statement during his time as medical attendant to the Tuam Home in giving his professional opinion, that there was nothing unusual in half of all children dying before the age of five.

    From the very beginning the members of the “Local Board” which funded the Tuam Home were every bit as exercised as the Poor Law Guardians of the Workhouse had been about the cost of keeping children barely alive.

    The Connacht Tribune report of October 13th 1928 captures the outrage of Board members at the cost of maintaining children in the Home and their almost apoplectic spasm at the cost to the State at keeping them alive until the age of fifteen when ‘boarded out’.

    Luckily Dr Costello was available to provide reassurance that the children of the Home would not be such a burden on the public purse. The published report records him telling the members that it was the international norm that half of all children worldwide died before the age of five.

    It may have been the case that Dr Costello was a little out of touch or simply complacent that the death rate among the Tuam children was during some periods, merely four or five times that of the national average. Whatever his reasoning, Dr Costello clearly did not have extravagant expectations for the children under his care.

    Dr Thomas Bodkin Costello whatever his personal virtues and talents exhibited an appalling degree of indifference in respect of the death toll in the Home, though in fairness to him there is no evidence that there was even a ripple at the level of any office in local or national government at the evidence that children were certified as dying from starvation, or that it led to any intervention.

    However, what emerges from even a cursory examination of the 796 Death Certificates for the children of the Home is very worrying. Where the specific causes of death are clustered and attributed to something such as measles they must be regarded as credible. Being highly contagious and at a time when treatment was poor, this is not unduly surprising.

    Many of the apologist explanations for the death toll in Tuam point out that babies and infants were accommodated in poor and crowded conditions not uncommon at the time, where illnesses such a whooping cough virus could have been expected to run amok.

    The “Home” did not provide for quarantine or isolation but let ‘nature’ take its course. Deaths from whooping cough are recorded at intervals in some small clusters, The incubation period of whooping cough is generally seven to ten days and we can agree that Dr Costello may have then correctly identified it, despite the fact that it occurs without fever or inflammation. There are secondary and third phases, to this historic killer, the last being one of recovery if the patient survives.

    What jars is the certification of death on the same day of two young girls both described as four-and-a-half-years old (in an institution where over 79% of children did not survive to one year), almost certainly unvaccinated and having allegedly lingered with whooping cough for eight weeks.

    Had they survived, the recuperation period could certainly have taken that time, but they did not and having reached the third stage, they would not have died from it. It may be some consolation to think that both are enjoying retirement in some sunny American state as a result of the child-trafficking business conducted by the Bon Secours, or not.

    From the 5 of April 1926 to 30 April 1926 measles is recorded as taking the lives of eighteen children, some undoubtedly because they were unnecessarily exposed to the sickness that killed them. The dreadful practice of allowing children with communicable sicknesses to remain in unsegregated wards continued for decades and undoubtedly caused many further deaths. There is no evidence however to suggest that measles could not have taken such a toll.

    What is a little surprising is the length of time Dr Costello appears to state that a child suffered from measles before succumbing to it. It is difficult to accept that a young infant could have fought measles for ten weeks before dying. It simply flies in the face of general medical knowledge.

    While it raises another issue, the period which frequently elapsed between the date on which a child was said to have died and the date of registration of their deaths by the local Civil Registrar was well beyond the norm.

    This among other factors raises an inference that the signing of Medical Certificates certifying cause of death was often done some considerable time after the fact of death, on information later supplied to Dr Costello, rather than on foot of his attendance and treatment of a child prior to, or at the time of death.

    Prior to the examination of the half-yearly Registers, the ‘Local Board’ received no immediate notification of death, even after the enactment of the Registration of Maternity Homes Act 1934, which required it to be done within twenty-four hours.

    In any such intervening period of course, the Bon Secours Order was paid a capitation fee for that child, who was deemed to be alive and in the Home. Fraud was the norm rather than the exception. This is transparently the case. Registration and the issue of a Death Certificate are often much later than the date of death. No audit, cross-referencing this documentation with the capitation fees paid to the Bon Secours was ever carried out by the State.

    In writing his Medical Certificates certifying cause of death. Dr Costello could dazzle with his Latin terms: cause of death for instance varicella, which to the layman means chickenpox. Again a highly contagious disease in crowded and poor conditions.

    Dr Costello however, in certifying it as the cause of one child’s death, seems to suggest that it lasted up to five months, before finally taking its life. It did not.

    A child is certified as dying from sub-cutaneous abscesses almost half a century after it was practice to successfully drain such abscesses by means of one of the earlier versions of the Penrose-drain.

    One slightly surprising aspect of the Tuam records is the lack of a single reference to polio or poliomyelitis as Dr Costello would undoubtedly have called it. The deplorable and unhygienic conditions endured by children in Tuam might have been a breeding ground for this awful disease. But perhaps it did not register on Dr Costello’s radar.

    The first polio vaccine was not introduced to Ireland until 1957 delivered orally to children on a sugar lump. Whether any children of the Tuam home ever received it prior to its closure in 1961 in uncertain, but not a single death is recorded over thirty-six years.

    The number of Death Certificates however, in which meningitis is given as either as the cause or contributory factor in a death, suggests that he may not have recognised instances of polio; meningitis frequently being caused by the onset of polio.

    The outbreaks of polio in Ireland which are recorded during the period in which the Home operated, did cause significant loss of life (and indeed severe incapacity in later life for those who survived). It is a little surprising that an environment such as Tuam should have escaped.

    What is indisputable is that the unfortunate children in the Tuam Home received medical care at a standard well below that received by the general population and even further below that received by those who had the means to purchase decent care. What is also clear is that the causes of death on the alleged Medical Certificates are themselves suspect.

    A much favoured explanation of the cause of death by Dr Costello as the Certificates show was debility. It is stated to be the main or contributory cause in the deaths of 193 of the 796 or some 25% of the children registered as dying in the Home.

    The figure of 193 is provided by the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee Report of July 16 2014, published in the wake of public concern over revelations about Tuam.

    In systematically going through the deaths registered from such a cause it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that this was little more than a label of convenience used to explain the deaths of so many children.

    If we add to the numbers of those certified to have perished from ‘debility’ to those whose deaths are attributed to their being ‘congenital idiots’ and those certified as dying from starvation we arrive at a total of 221 deaths out of recorded 796 deaths.

    There will be resentment in some quarters at this unflattering examination of a doctor who was such a significant figure in Tuam and somewhat iconic figure in Irish cultural circles and polite society. It might be said that such an appraisal is made with hindsight, unfairly and without regard to the realities of the time. Not true
    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    recedite wrote: »
    That would only be possible to determine if a sibling had died and been among the bones successfully recovered and tested. If the bones of the sibling were not recovered at the site, that person would remain in doubt about their sibling as before. Some people might think that if they came forward and were tested, it might only be opening old wounds and creating false hope. I think very few would come forward, though I could be wrong.

    First step is to see who wants to come forward and have their DNA put into the database.[/b] It might be possible to do a cost benefit analysis from there;[/b] Calculated along the lines of the number of relatives volunteering their DNA samples divided by the estimated cost of digging up the area (including the back gardens of the houses and paying compo to the householders) plus the cost of the DNA testing, divided by the estimated chances of finding a match (say 1% or a factor of 0.01)
    Is that simple enough for you?



    recedite wrote: »

    [/b] It might be possible to do a cost benefit analysis from there;
    [/b]


    No need, the church has plenty of money, just start billing them from when you send in the first ground radar guy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    What, like the bill for the redress payments?
    C'mon now, we all know its the taxpayer that always ends up paying.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    What, like the bill for the redress payments?
    C'mon now, we all know its the taxpayer that always ends up paying.

    Sad but true.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    So its probably advisable that in the case/s of future discoveries of abuse secreted-away by the religious, that the state shall insist on signed legal documents being signed by the representatives of the religious to ensure payment is made and not evaded by the religious to those who suffered while in their care. If that's done and the religious concerned do not make payment as agreed, send in the sheriff as a court agent to take possession of goods to the sum/s agreed in lieu of monetary payments due to those who suffered while in the care of their abusers. I'd include land-property as seizable goods in those cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    To do that the state would have to hold a mortgage over the lands, and we've seen how quick, easy and cheap it is to repossess property in Ireland...!

    Not too much of a secondhand market for old relgious paintings and statues, vestments, chalices...

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1023/1006153-tuam-mother-and-baby-home/
    Site of Tuam Mother and Baby Home to be excavated


    The Government has approved the forensic excavation of the site of the former Mother and Baby Home in Tuam, Co Galway.

    Significant quantities of human remains were discovered at the site last year.

    The Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation began test excavations at the site of the children's burial ground at the Dublin Road housing estate in Tuam in October 2016.

    The commission was established following allegations about the deaths of 800 babies in Tuam over a number of decades and the manner in which they were buried.

    The commission said significant quantities of human remains were discovered in at least 17 of 20 underground chambers that were examined last year.

    The mother and baby home operated from 1925 to 1961.

    The decision today will see a number of actions undertaken including:

    - A phased approach to the excavation and recovery of juvenile human remains as far as is possible

    - The use of systemic on-site ground truthing and test excavations to effectively locate burials

    - Forensic analysis of any recovered remains and where possible individualisation and identification

    - Arrangements for respectful reburial and memorialisation and the appropriate conservation of the site


    Announcing the decision, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Katherine Zappone said she understood that this was a hugely important decision for all connected to the site in Tuam, especially those who believe they may have a relative buried there and those now living close to the site.

    "I am committed to ensuring that all the children interred at this site can have a dignified and respectful burial."

    The minister said the Bons Secours Sisters congregation, which operated the facility, has offered to pay €2.5m towards the estimated €6m-€13m cost of the excavation.

    Ms Zappone said that such a task has never been undertaken or contemplated previously and promised that every effort would be made to ensure that all juvenile remains would be recovered from the site.

    She acknowledged the legal and technical challenges related to the decision but said: "This comprehensive and scientific approach provides us with the best opportunity to address the many deeply personal questions to which former residents and their families need answers".

    The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes is continuing its work and the facts which it establishes will further assist the work on the site in Tuam, the minister said.

    The head of the Government's expert advisory group, forensic archaeologist Niamh McCullagh, said that, on current evidence discovered by the commission, there were more than 20 remains to be recovered and perhaps over 100.

    The Tuam Babies family group has welcomed the decision by the Government to allow the excavation.

    In a statement, the group said: "This is an exceptionally important decision and will pave the way for all the other mother and baby homes, and the lost children of Ireland.

    "We want all of the children found, if they are not in the grave, where are they? All of the children must be found and we would like to see a full excavation of the entire site as we believe there are many graves in the area, not just at the site we have all come to know.

    "The lost children of Ireland deserve truth and recognition and dignity in their shameful deaths, which was no fault of their own."

    A report by the Special Rapporteur on Child Protection into human rights issues at the former site of the mother and baby home in Tuam was also published today.

    It looked at human rights issues related to the rights of an individual to a respectful and appropriate burial; the entitlement of families to know the fate of their relatives; any obligation on the State to fully investigate the deaths of those concerned; and also to examine the law between 1926 and 1960 and how this might impact on this issues.

    It is over five years since local historian Catherine Corless discovered official records showing that 798 infants and children had died at the site of the Mother and Baby Home in Tuam.

    The home was run by the Bon Secours Sisters from 1925 to 1961.

    Ms Corless believed that most of them were buried on this site which is partly covered by local authority housing and a playground.

    A significant quantity of human remains were found in septic tanks.

    The so-called Tuam Babies scandal attracted headlines around the world and led to calls for the excavation of the site and exhumation of the remains.

    A silent vigil was held in Tuam in August to coincide with the visit of Pope Francis to Ireland to highlight the campaign.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005



    So that means we will have to pay €4.5m to €11.5m :(. That is a case figure and will probably be multiples of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    So that means we will have to pay €4.5m to €11.5m :(. That is a case figure and will probably be multiples of that.
    Not just that but the approach decided by government is avoiding an inquest into the deaths - like what would normally be done when bodies are found that don't have burial records and certified death certs etc. Families of those dumped there have been asking the local coroner to do his job and lock down the site so that he can perform a proper investigation followed by an inquest or for the Attorney General to step in an appoint another coroner to the site. It looks like the government have gladly accepted the Bon Secours hush money to avoid such an investigation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda



    It would be beneficial imo if this investigation is overseen by an impartial third party such as UN Office on Genocide.

    Of note their definition of genocide includes the killing / deaths of groups of people outside war and in 'peaceful situations'

    http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.html

    Considering the extent of cover-up and the unexplained and high death rates associated with these institutions and the manner of burial of these infants and children - UN supervision would allow for this matter to be properly investigated and prevent the issue being swept under the carpet again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    axer wrote: »
    Not just that but the approach decided by government is avoiding an inquest into the deaths - like what would normally be done when bodies are found that don't have burial records and certified death certs etc. Families of those dumped there have been asking the local coroner to do his job and lock down the site so that he can perform a proper investigation followed by an inquest or for the Attorney General to step in an appoint another coroner to the site. It looks like the government have gladly accepted the Bon Secours hush money to avoid such an investigation.

    The RTE news report is referring to it as an "forensic excavation" ....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    A silent vigil was held in Tuam in August to coincide with the visit of Pope Francis to Ireland to highlight the campaign.
    I didn't hear anything about that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    So that means we will have to pay €4.5m to €11.5m :(. That is a case figure and will probably be multiples of that.
    Oh yeah, this will be a bottomless money pit.

    The Bon Secours Sisters have capped their contribution at €2.5 Million though. That's how much redemption costs. It's like Redress II.
    Great time to be a forensic archaeologist though. I hope some of them are Irish; at least they'll be paying some of the money back in tax then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    recedite wrote: »
    I didn't hear anything about that.
    FirstShadyBaleenwhale-size_restricted.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,543 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    axer wrote: »
    Not just that but the approach decided by government is avoiding an inquest into the deaths - like what would normally be done when bodies are found that don't have burial records and certified death certs etc. Families of those dumped there have been asking the local coroner to do his job and lock down the site so that he can perform a proper investigation followed by an inquest or for the Attorney General to step in an appoint another coroner to the site. It looks like the government have gladly accepted the Bon Secours hush money to avoid such an investigation.

    On the issue of committments between the Govt and the order of nuns, Min Zappone stated in one reply to the interviewer during the RTE interview that the Govt/she had made no agreement/entered no commitment with the nuns in respect to accepting any contribution from the nuns as part of any form of deal, and rightly so given the need for the dead to be given equal treatment after death.

    Mention had been made during the interview of around €2 million offered by the nuns towards the costs of the recovery and respectful interment of the skeletal remains found at the site. Hopefully the issue of a coroners court could be held when both forensic and interment proceeding of the remains were complete with the forensic report going to the coroner to assist him/her in work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    I’m going to get some stick for saying this but I’m not sure exhuming the bodies now is the right thing to do.

    It must be considered that some of the women that gave birth to babies buried there in the 1950s and 60s may still be alive. Those women have had much turmoil to deal with and I think there’s something to be said for allowing them to live out the remainder of their lives without having to deal with more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭justshane


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I’m going to get some stick for saying this but I’m not sure exhuming the bodies now is the right thing to do.

    It must be considered that some of the women that gave birth to babies buried there in the 1950s and 60s may still be alive. Those women have had much turmoil to deal with and I think there’s something to be said for allowing them to live out the remainder of their lives without having to deal with more.

    I can see your point and I think there's no right answer. Some of the mothered will want it and some won't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    aloyisious wrote: »
    On the issue of committments between the Govt and the order of nuns, Min Zappone stated in one reply to the interviewer during the RTE interview that the Govt/she had made no agreement/entered no commitment with the nuns in respect to accepting any contribution from the nuns as part of any form of deal, and rightly so given the need for the dead to be given equal treatment after death.

    Mention had been made during the interview of around €2 million offered by the nuns towards the costs of the recovery and respectful interment of the skeletal remains found at the site. Hopefully the issue of a coroners court could be held when both forensic and interment proceeding of the remains were complete with the forensic report going to the coroner to assist him/her in work.
    It doesn't work like that way since the excavation would have to come under the office of the coroner not the department of children and youth affairs. The babies will not be given the same rights as other people but then again they didn't get them when alive either. The last baby put into the sewage tank would be only around 59 years old now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So that means we will have to pay €4.5m to €11.5m :(. That is a case figure and will probably be multiples of that.

    The nuns should be made pay the full cost. They can well afford it. They have a private healthcare empire worth billions built on the suffering of these children and their mothers.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Under His Eye


    Do we know why legislation is needed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Do we know why legislation is needed?
    Because the government don't have the legal authority to deal with the site, the coroner does. Looks like the nuns paid €2.5m to avoid a legal determination of death.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I’m going to get some stick for saying this but I’m not sure exhuming the bodies now is the right thing to do.

    It must be considered that some of the women that gave birth to babies buried there in the 1950s and 60s may still be alive. Those women have had much turmoil to deal with and I think there’s something to be said for allowing them to live out the remainder of their lives without having to deal with more.

    I don't get that argument at all.

    Firstly, have any of these hypothetical women actually come forward to say they don't the investigation to go ahead because they don't want more turmoil? How may have come forward to say they do want the investigation to go ahead regardless?

    Secondly, if it was just a case of improper burial, then this argument might have merit. But given what has been reported about the conditions in the Home, this is bordering on a manslaughter (if not outright murder) investigation. Those children were wronged on so many levels and they deserve justice despite how painful it might be for their parents to hear of those wrongs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 Pinkfoot1


    The money would be better spent on children who are alive. For example consider those with mental health problems, autism, homeless etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,627 ✭✭✭eire4


    Pinkfoot1 wrote: »
    The money would be better spent on children who are alive. For example consider those with mental health problems, autism, homeless etc.

    It is not an either or situation. We can do both.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,920 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Make the nuns pay, problem solved.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,627 ✭✭✭eire4


    Make the nuns pay, problem solved.

    Very well said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Needles73


    eire4 wrote: »
    It is not an either or situation. We can do both.

    You do know the country still borrows money every year. Plus we are over 200billion in debt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,983 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Needles73 wrote: »
    You do know the country still borrows money every year. Plus we are over 200billion in debt.




    ..then we (the state) do the sensible thing and finally and thoroughly get the church to fork up their share. No more "deals", no more avoiding of the question of forced labour and physical punishment.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,627 ✭✭✭eire4


    Needles73 wrote: »
    You do know the country still borrows money every year. Plus we are over 200billion in debt.

    Well aware of that so lets make the religious actually pay then and still no reason the government cannot pay a portion if needed.


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