Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

volchitsa

I don't know, but I wonder if there are anything like 1000 babies there really - I suspect some at least of the death certificates may have been fakes to cover baby trafficking activities.

Whether the identification of the remains that are there will be enough evidence to spark an investigation into possible baby trafficking is another question I suppose. After all, there is quite strong evidence for that already, yet nothing concrete has been done.

It's quite possible that pouring yet more public money into "being seen to do something" is felt to be a sufficient response from the government. The worst is that they are so often proven right, as the public loses interest and, goldfish-like, moves on.

pilly

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not sure exactly what Zappone expects these experts to tell her.

Even if it was possible, do we really want to excavate 1000 babies remains, DNA test them, DNA test people descended from women who were at the home, identify the nearest relatives and then have the babies reburied?

It seems a bit of a pointless circus to me.

We've known the basics of what happened for years now: hundreds of babies and children died at the home from neglect, and the nuns buried them onsite in unmarked disused sewers rather than in a marked graveyard. What will further investigation of the remains add to that?

I don't know, I kind of had this view of it initially and then I listened to a man who lived there and he has no idea if his sister died or was sent abroad and I think it would bring peace of mind to him at least to know that she did die and to give her a proper burial.

Waitsian

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Even if it was possible, do we really want to excavate 1000 babies remains, DNA test them, DNA test people descended from women who were at the home, identify the nearest relatives and then have the babies reburied?

Yes, we do. We absolutely do, with an emphatic yes. With prosecutions if, and where, necessary.

Zubeneschamali

mod9maple wrote: »

Yes, we do. We absolutely do, with an emphatic yes. With prosecutions if, and where, necessary.

Who are you going to prosecute?

Bristolscale7

mod9maple wrote: »

Yes, we do. We absolutely do, with an emphatic yes. With prosecutions if, and where, necessary.

Yeah, you'd be surprised how much information modern forensic scientists can provide.

recedite

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Yeah, you'd be surprised how much information modern forensic scientists can provide.

We already have the death certs with causes of death such as "marasmus" (undernourishment) and "congenital idiot" listed by the nuns.
Its was always well known that the kids were a bit stunted for their age and prone to picking up infections given their crowded living conditions.
Whats a forensic scientist going to add to that? And how do you prosecute somebody who is already dead?

Bristolscale7

recedite wrote: »

We already have the death certs with causes of death such as "marasmus" (undernourishment) and "congenital idiot" listed by the nuns.

missing /s ?

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few bashed-in childrens' skulls in those septic tanks. That's the point of bringing in the scientists.

As for prosecution, that may not be possible. But it's important to judge for history as John Acton pointed out a long time ago:

But the weight of opinion is against me when I exhort you never to debase the moral currency or to lower the standard of rectitude, but to try others by the final maxim that governs your own lives, and to suffer no man and no cause to escape the undying penalty which history has the power to inflict on wrong. The plea in extenuation of guilt and mitigation of punishment is perpetual. At every step we are met by arguments which go to excuse, to palliate, to confound right and wrong, and reduce the just man to the level of the reprobate. The men who plot to baffle and resist us are, first of all, those who made history what it has become.

recedite

Even if they find a bashed in skull, nobody will know whether it was damaged just before, or just after death.

IMO this is now more about Zappone wanting to be seen as somebody who is doing something, for her own personal political gain. And sod the expense, sure isn't the taxpayer paying for it all.

If we had more successful trials and fewer expensive inquiries in this country, we'd all be a lot better off.

If the dead can teach us anything, its how to live now. But I don't see that lesson being learned. I still see state services being outsourced to religious institutions.

Zubeneschamali

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

But it's important to judge for history

But we already know the facts. No-one paying attention was remotely surprised by any of this.

Those "homes" were hell-holes. This isn't news.

And it is far, far too late to prosecute the nuns, priests and officials who perpetrated all of this on the nation.

BlinkingLights

Regardless of how this is dressed up, the "homes" were pretty much like prisons for those who had broken an ultra conservative moral code.

They were designed as a punishment and a coercive tool to keep control over women's sexuality. It was just like a pearls and twin set 1950s version of the Taliban that has somehow retained a modicum of respectability, despite all of the horrors inflicted.

Anyone who got pregnant, outside of marriage, in a land where contraception was illegal, was punished by either being shunned and potentially run out of the country - off to England or the US to hide in shame, or it was hushed up and they were incarcerated in a punishment institution.

That was the sad reality of it.

Ireland was full of this kind of thing in the past. The industrial schools also treated those unfortunate enough to have been placed in one, like absolute dirt and there is really no excuse, no hiding from it or anything else. It is a dark and depressing blot on Irish history and something that the state and wider society allowed to happen and even actively approved of.

Perhaps the 1916 centenary would have been better marked by drawing a line under all of that grim past and becoming a genuine republic. One that is genuinely wiling to stand up for its own people and not just be beholden to these religious institutions. We are slowly getting there, but there are still so many hang ups and holdovers - prayers in the Daily, the primary and secondary education system and its discrimination against people based on religion.

At least this hospital decision is one major step forward. But there are so many other issues to be put right.

robindch

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

And it is far, far too late to prosecute the nuns, priests and officials who perpetrated all of this on the nation.

Equally, it's never too late for their religious colleagues to admit fully what went on, for the orders to open their archives fully to the state, for the institutional church to order the relevant congregations to co-operate fully with local and international law enforcement agencies, for the institutional church and the congregations to condemn unambiguously what happened, for the two to condemn unambiguously the people who facilitated it, for them to condemn the air of authority and the practice of arrogance which their forebears wore, to retract and condemn the doctrines which caused people to believe that it was right to suppress sex, to imprison women and rubbish the rights of women, to imprison babies and rubbish the rights of babies. And so on and so on.

It's never too late, but I'll bet an ice-cream for all of Dun Laoghaire that few if any of these will happen in our lifetimes.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

Equally, it's never too late for their religious colleagues to admit fully what went on, for the orders to open their archives fully to the state, for the institutional church to order the relevant congregations to co-operate fully with local and international law enforcement agencies, for the institutional church and the congregations to condemn unambiguously what happened, for the two to condemn unambiguously the people who facilitated it, for them to condemn the air of authority and the practice of arrogance which their forebears wore, to retract and condemn the doctrines which caused people to believe that it was right to suppress sex, to imprison women and rubbish the rights of women, to imprison babies and rubbish the rights of babies. And so on and so on.

All of this should happen. Also the facts about what went on in these institutions, which are already well known, should be taught as part of the curriculum in all secondary schools.

But thats not what Zappone is proposing. She is proposing a painstaking dig of the entire area, and forensic DNA analysis of all the bones recovered.
Presumably followed by a ceremonial reburial of the bones somewhere else, years later, attended by similar church and state VIPs to those who originally founded the institutions in the first place.

aloyisious

The discussion yesterday on RTE about this included the chance that there could be fusing-together of bodies and parts, and that stillborn babies would not be registered as dead, as that registration is for babies born alive, who died afterwards.. There may literally be a total mish-mash of bodies there. It was also mentioned that the dig-plan might extend to all the other mother and baby homes graveyards and burial sites.

volchitsa

recedite wrote: »

All of this should happen. Also the facts about what went on in these institutions, which are already well known, should be taught as part of the curriculum in all secondary schools.

But thats not what Zappone is proposing. She is proposing a painstaking dig of the entire area, and forensic DNA analysis of all the bones recovered.
Presumably followed by a ceremonial reburial of the bones somewhere else, years later, attended by similar church and state VIPs to those who originally founded the institutions in the first place.

How exactly do you suggest that Zappone should go about doing what you suggest without solid evidence though?

If for instance schools were asked to put this sort of information on their curriculum, what level of evidence would Catholic schools (90-odd percent, right?) require of their Minister before agreeing to tell their pupils this as fact?

robindch

volchitsa wrote: »

If for instance schools were asked to put this sort of information on their curriculum, what level of evidence would Catholic schools (90-odd percent, right?) require of their Minister before agreeing to tell their pupils this as fact?

Hard to say. For example, I never learned, until years after I'd left school, that Hitler only acquired political power in Germany after he gained the support of a catholic party lead by a catholic priest. At school, this interesting detail was glossed over and instead, we learned about the glorious sacrifice of people like Maximillian Kolbe instead.

One suspects that the RCC's guidance of the curriculum is lead less by evidence and more by expedience.

recedite

By curriculum, I was thinking more of this.

The curriculum for Ireland's primary and post-primary schools is determined by the Minister for Education and Skills who is advised by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment (NCCA).The curriculum sets out, not only what is to be taught, but how learning in the particular subject area is to be assessed.

I suppose as part of the history syllabus. In terms of "religion" as a subject, there seems to be a lot of freedom for different schools to teach whatever they like.

Absolam

I would have that the role of the Religious Orders in the birth of the State and it's transformation into what it is now would have been a significant part of Irish history, and sit quite naturally in the modern history curriculum.

I do recall when I was in school ( a long long time ago) there were certain subjects deliberately omitted from the history curriculum though; our Irish history stopped at glorious 1916 and resumed in 1937... the 'unpleasantness' between rebellion and republic was deemed too divisive, with too many still living family members involved on either side, to be allowed in the classroom. So maybe a similar attitude holds sway at the moment? Or maybe it is covered in the curriculum already.

volchitsa

recedite wrote: »

By curriculum, I was thinking more of this.

I suppose as part of the history syllabus. In terms of "religion" as a subject, there seems to be a lot of freedom for different schools to teach whatever they like.

Yeah but even in history, you have to have some degree of cooperation from the schools - look at Robindch's point about Hitler's rise to power being aided by a Catholic group. And there's a lot of selective editing about the Civil War and about Northern Ireland IME. So for something like this that hasn't been the history books anywhere yet, there's no way they'd just say, Yeah sure let's teach the kids about all the abuses we were responsible for. You can't imagine the Catholic schools would do that can you? Except in a way that got their defence in first of course.

robindch

Things not getting any simpler up in Tuam owing to the small size of the bodies, the number of them and the manner in which they were buried.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hard-to-identify-babies-at-tuam-site-due-to-mixing-of-remains-1.3147125

Expert Report wrote:

The probability that the commingling/inter-mixing of human remains has occurred is a significant complication to individual identification. This is more acute in the case of juvenile human remains due to their fragile nature, compounded by the potentially significant quantities involved.

The Department's two reports released yesterday are here:

https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/mother_and_baby_homes/20170707MonthlyUpdateonIssuesRelatingtoMotherandBabyHomesJuly2017.pdf
https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/mother_and_baby_homes/20170707OptionsIdentifiedinStage1bytheExpertGroup.pdf

recedite

The first report is merely political fluff from the ministers office, but second document gives a reasonable overview of the practical difficulties involved.
In effect, the whole memorial garden, along with other people's back gardens and a playground would be dug up and destroyed, if they go all out on this excavation.
What the report cannot do, is to place a value on leaving the memorial garden intact.

Everybody has their own opinion on the idea of digging up human bones for study/amusement versus respect for the dead. Its part of a broader issue in regard to archaeology and excavations of human burials.
My own opinion is that the dead should be left in their graves unless there is something reasonably important to learn, or unless the burial site is needed and is being dug up anyway, for some new building or road.

IMO whatever there is to learn about this whole affair is probably already known, or can be learned from the archives. I would be more interested in making sure that its remembered, and not forgotten again whenever the media loses interest.

Samaris

While yes, the other issue is that these weren't graves. It was a dumping pit for the dead and -potentially- part of a cover-up for decades-spanning crimes.

For the sake of understanding what actually happened - and where possible identifying remains for the sake of the families involved - I think this should go ahead, and the children interred in identifiable graves as they should have been all those years ago.

recedite

Samaris wrote: »

the other issue is that these weren't graves.

What's your definition of a grave though? A place where people are buried, or something else?
Fallen warriors on an ancient battlefield, or the mass burial in lime pits outside city walls during an ancient epidemic. Are these graves?

...and the children interred in identifiable graves as they should have been all those years ago.

We'll wait for the experts to make a determination on this, but I think they have already hinted that reliable identification is not going to be possible, using current DNA technology and the current (non existent) database of the parent's/relatives DNA.

aloyisious

The snag with not doing a complete excavation now of the site and any outlying areas originally within the home grounds, and a decent reburial afterwards, is that any roadworks or house extension work/s might turn up human bones/skeletons of unusual burial status and keep the story unfinished for years to come. It would hence be the better way to proceed with the work now.

recedite

aloyisious wrote: »

any roadworks or house extension work/s might turn up human bones/skeletons of unusual burial status .

That will happen over the years anyway.
It happens in other places too. There is an old cemetery near me that has some houses near it, and some skeletons were dug up when an extension was being built a few years ago.
The reason is that when the houses are being built, it is in the interests of the landowners and the developers to be "unsure" about the exact boundaries of the burial area. If they are old graves, it will be hard to tell the outlying parts of the burial ground from the surrounding green fields, especially as the pauper type graves (which are more likely to be in the outlying areas) may have been unmarked, or only marked with biodegradable wooden crosses.
So it seems that in Tuam, the back gardens of the houses, and possibly the houses themselves, are in an old burial area. I don't see that as a big deal though, its not a unique situation in Ireland. Or probably in any country with a long history of human habitation.

The pertinent question is whether anything useful can be learned from digging them all up now.

Samaris

recedite wrote: »

What's your definition of a grave though? A place where people are buried, or something else?
Fallen warriors on an ancient battlefield, or the mass burial in lime pits outside city walls during an ancient epidemic. Are these graves?

We'll wait for the experts to make a determination on this, but I think they have already hinted that reliable identification is not going to be possible, using current DNA technology and the current (non existent) database of the parent's/relatives DNA.

Ah, I meant "interred in graves that are recognisably graves" rather than individual identification of each child as yeah, I entirely agree that it won't be possible for many - although it may be for some of those people involved in the whole thing now. If people who were there and gave birth there are willing to give DNA samples, it -may- be possible to match them to one of the little bodies, although then again, it might not.

By grave in how I talked about it at first, sometimes it is not possible to give people individual graves - battlefields, plague, quite. But that wasn't the case with these children, they were left in a disused septic tank, hidden away over the course of years. A grave should be a marker that this person existed, even if they cannot be fully identified. That was not the purpose of leaving them there (and telling no-one); it seems it was a hell of a lot more to hide the death rate and because graves for pauper bastards was too much effort and money. That, I feel, is wrong and should be corrected now insofar as is humanly possible.

hinault

mod9maple wrote: »

Yes, we do. We absolutely do, with an emphatic yes. With prosecutions if, and where, necessary.

I'd welcome a full accounting too.

But not for the reasons you prefer.:p

robindch

An investigation by the BBC and Scottish newspaper, the Sunday Post, looks into deaths at care home for children in Lanarkshire. Their inquiries lead to an unmarked, overgrown area in a nearby cemetery where some now believe that the bodies of perhaps 400 children are buried.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41200949

Anybody know if the Daughters of Charity (who are active in a few places in Ireland) are related to the Sisters of Charity (linked to the National Maternity Hospital)?

Samaris

robindch wrote: »

An investigation by the BBC and Scottish newspaper, the Sunday Post, looks into deaths at care home for children in Lanarkshire. Their inquiries lead to an unmarked, overgrown area in a nearby cemetery where some now believe that the bodies of perhaps 400 children are buried.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41200949

Anybody know if the Daughters of Charity (who are active in a few places in Ireland) are related to the Sisters of Charity (linked to the National Maternity Hospital)?

Assuming this is accurate, there's a description of the difference/links here. I'm assuming they're all the St. VdeP ones;

https://dcarchives.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/faq-sisters-of-charity-and-daughters-of-charity/

recedite

It seems quite like the difference between the Peoples Liberation Front of Judea and the Judean People's Liberation Front.

But at least I have learned a new word after reading that; "charism".
Its kind of like having a special pokemon power.

robindch

The New York times looks in again on the Tuam scandal, focussing on the unhappy experiences of Catherine Corless:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/world/europe/tuam-ireland-babies-children.html