Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Neyite

The third paragraphs describes a 6 year old walking along a road with Parkmore & the Galway racecourse on one side of the road, and the Tuam home on the other.

Considering that both locations are about 30 miles apart, that's some fcuking walk for a 6 year old.

gctest50

Neyite wrote: »

The third paragraphs describes a 6 year old walking along a road with Parkmore & the Galway racecourse on one side of the road, and the Tuam home on the other.

Considering that both locations are about 30 miles apart, that's some fcuking walk for a 6 year old.

nope, The Parkmore Racecourse

To her right runs the Parkmore racecourse, where hard-earned shillings are won or lost by a nose. And to her left, the mother and baby home,

https://mobile.twitter.com/oldtuamsociety/status/499502462995537920

aloyisious

Edit: Ta HotBlack Desiato... You are correct, wrong thread.

pauldla

A very moving read. Thanks Rob.

P

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

The Examiner has a very large article covering the debate with a load [16] of signed letters giving views from both sides.... People interested can find the article on the Irish Examiner official site under the title Debate On The 8th: Your Views On Ireland's Most Divisive Topic.

Presumably meant to be posted in the other thread, but here's the link anyway : http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/debate-on-the-8th-your-views-on-irelands-most-devisive-topic-461861.html

Hotblack Desiato

Interesting letter.

DNA testing of Tuam remains

Sir, – As someone who has witnessed first-hand spectacular technical advances in the fields of ancient DNA and genomics during the last two decades, I am perplexed by the hesitancy in applying modern forensic genomics to genetic identification of the skeletal material found at the Tuam mother and baby home (“Katherine Zappone warns over DNA testing of Tuam remains”, News, December 29th).

First demonstrated by researchers at UCD and TCD, it is now well established that the best source of human DNA from archaeological material is the dense petrous portion of the temporal bone located in the skull. This relatively small skeletal element can be easily accessed and genetic profiling using high-throughput DNA sequencing would not be compromised by co-mingling of skeletal material or cross-contamination of DNA from different individuals. In addition, at less than a century, the age of these skeletons is unlikely to be a problem for these methods; scientists routinely generate whole-genome sequence information from people that lived thousands of years ago.

Integration of high-throughput DNA sequencing data with single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) “chip” data from putative living relatives would provide thousands-if not tens of thousands-of genomic markers that could be used for highly accurate and rapid genetic matching to the children interred at the Tuam site. – Yours, etc,

DAVID MacHUGH, PhD

Professor in Genomics,

University College Dublin,

Belfield, Dublin 4.

recedite

I get that this guy is a professor of genomics and knows what he is talking about. Also I presume that he would be looking forward to this in the same way that a barrister eagerly awaits a multi million euro tribunal.

The problem is what do you do with the results? Match them to who?
Dig up the skull of Handsome Paddy O'Grady who died 40 years ago and finally prove that he was the father of six of them? Whats the point?

The nuns kept lists of the names of mothers and babies, and also listed causes of death, including malnutrition and "idiocy". Can DNA testing prove/disprove cause of death?

smacl

recedite wrote: »

I get that this guy is a professor of genomics and knows what he is talking about. Also I presume that he would be looking forward to this in the same way that a barrister eagerly awaits a multi million euro tribunal.

Knowing the chap in question, I'd reckon the interest is more nerdy academic than financial. I gather the reason for the letter was Zappone's inept and apparently incorrect assessment that the technology wasn't up to the task. I notice he posted a link to a related article by a TCD professor on FB today.

recedite

Two years ago, Prof Bradley and colleagues at TCD and Queen’s University Belfast, published research after sequencing the first genomes from ancient Irish people. One of them was a 5,200-year-old farming woman.

That seems like a more interesting/appropriate use of the technology. Or if you had unearthed a mass grave and had no idea who/when/why.

keane2097

If only we could test more than one set of remains at a time

smacl

recedite wrote: »

That seems like a more interesting/appropriate use of the technology. Or if you had unearthed a mass grave and had no idea who/when/why.

I suppose the question is whether as a society we want to determine how many sets of identifiable remains are present and do we want to give each one some form of unique identity post-mortem that can be made available going forward. While I don't see any big value in this myself, I could imagine that those with closer ties to Tuam might feel differently.

Neyite

smacl wrote: »

I suppose the question is whether as a society we want to determine how many sets of identifiable remains are present and do we want to give each one some form of unique identity post-mortem that can be made available going forward. While I don't see any big value in this myself, I could imagine that those with closer ties to Tuam might feel differently.

I would see value in this. Those remains were baptised people. According to their faith, they deserve a consecrated burial. Morally and ethically, to identify them and re-inter them in a grave with a stone is the decent thing to do.

Or, if nothing else, have dna taken, have the grave cross-referenced so that at a later stage if a relative or descendant came forward as a match they could name that person's remains and put a headstone marker on it. There could be siblings or nephews/nieces who would like to do that but can't at the moment for fear of upsetting an elderly relative for example.

I know it's a lot of work, and not all remains will be identified but the Order/ Society/ gave these kids nothing in their brief little lives and failed them terribly. Now if the time to do right by them. They lived and died as worthless beings in the eyes of many, it's up to us to show that we've changed as a society and that we no longer see them as worthless.

Putting them all back into another mass grave with a list of names is basically saying we haven't changed at all.

And ideally bill the Order for for all the DNA work and each and every interment.

smacl

Neyite wrote: »

Those remains were baptised people. According to their faith, they deserve a consecrated burial. Morally and ethically, to identify them and re-inter them in a grave with a stone is the decent thing to do.

Not sure that their faith did them so many favours, that religion was ever a choice for them, or that consecrated burials is necessarily the appropriate course of action now. While we as a society clearly failed these children, there's little we can do to excuse that fact at this point. I would suggest that the value of a DNA record is for those that might have been related to them.

Neyite

smacl wrote: »

Not sure that their faith did them so many favours, that religion was ever a choice for them, or that consecrated burials is necessarily the appropriate course of action now. While we as a society clearly failed these children, there's little we can do to excuse that fact at this point. I would suggest that the value of a DNA record is for those that might have been related to them.

I fully agree that their faith did them no favours however my point was that as baptised Catholics they should have been given a Catholic burial in consecrated ground by the nuns at the time. Their next of kin might very well be Catholic and want a Catholic interment. Or failing that, the family once identified could take charge of the remains and organise a burial more suited to the faith they prefer, paid for by the nuns.

recedite

I'd assume that those who were baptised were buried according to relevant RCC rites. Not much point doing it twice.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

I would suggest that the value of a DNA record is for those that might have been related to them.

How many suspected relatives have come forward for DNA testing?

Neyite

recedite wrote: »

I'd assume that those who were baptised were buried according to relevant RCC rites. Not much point doing it twice.

The tank was not consecrated grounds. The RCC consider consecrated grounds to be a very big deal.

smacl

Neyite wrote: »

I fully agree that their faith did them no favours however my point was that as baptised Catholics they should have been given a Catholic burial in consecrated ground by the nuns at the time. Their next of kin might very well be Catholic and want a Catholic interment. Or failing that, the family once identified could take charge of the remains and organise a burial more suited to the faith they prefer, paid for by the nuns.

I agree that the internment should be the choice of their next of kin where that link is established. Beyond that, given their treatment by the Catholic church I can't think of any good reason why they should be buried with respect to traditions of that church. I don't think it pays any respect to the dead per se, merely to other unrelated Catholics.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

I'd assume that those who were baptised were buried according to relevant RCC rites. Not much point doing it twice.

Not much point doing it once either, if it had not already been done.

How many suspected relatives have come forward for DNA testing?

No idea, but I suppose creating the record does provide the opportunity for those who would like to come forward to do so.

aloyisious

recedite wrote: »

How many suspected relatives have come forward for DNA testing?

Would you actually mean bereaved relatives?

Hotblack Desiato

FFS recedite, there are former inmates of these homes who to this day don't know what happened to their siblings, did they die (as they were told) and put in the tank, or buried somewhere else? Or they didn't die and were sold off to America and possibly be alive there or elsewhere? Don't you think the state and the nuns owe them a duty to find out if possible?

How can anyone come forward for DNA testing when no testing has taken place?

Your snarky tone is not doing anyone any favours.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

FFS recedite, there are former inmates of these homes who to this day don't know what happened to their siblings, did they die (as they were told) and put in the tank, or buried somewhere else? Or they didn't die and were sold off to America and possibly be alive there or elsewhere?

The area covered by the DNA testing will need to be extended then, to include America.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How can anyone come forward for DNA testing when no testing has taken place?

My take on it is that society has already failed the children involved and we're past the point where there is any remedy for this failure. The next duty of care would be towards surviving relatives. The first step would be to publicly advertise to see if there are any bereaved relatives keen to go through this process and then proceed or not on that basis. Outside of bereaved relatives, is there any value in gathering and documenting the DNA?

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

The area covered by the DNA testing will need to be extended then, to include America.

And there you go again.

It's really not hard to understand. If somebody comes forward who was an inmate of the home and who believes they had siblings there it should be possible to determine if the sibling is among the remains recovered or not.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's really not hard to understand. If somebody comes forward who was an inmate of the home and who believes they had siblings there it should be possible to determine if the sibling is among the remains recovered or not.

That would only be possible to determine if a sibling had died and been among the bones successfully recovered and tested. If the bones of the sibling were not recovered at the site, that person would remain in doubt about their sibling as before. Some people might think that if they came forward and were tested, it might only be opening old wounds and creating false hope. I think very few would come forward, though I could be wrong.

First step is to see who wants to come forward and have their DNA put into the database. It might be possible to do a cost benefit analysis from there; Calculated along the lines of the number of relatives volunteering their DNA samples divided by the estimated cost of digging up the area (including the back gardens of the houses and paying compo to the householders) plus the cost of the DNA testing, divided by the estimated chances of finding a match (say 1% or a factor of 0.01)
Is that simple enough for you?

aloyisious

recedite wrote: »

The area covered by the DNA testing will need to be extended then, to include America.

Sensible investigations start with a small pool, only widening when the pool is found empty of clues, not going ocean-wide from day 1. Start with caution with what you know and don't go wild. If you do get a match here between living and dead and get a burial, then you have done the family a good, reduced the load and proven your worth. The wounds have already been opened wide with little chance of further damage.

Odhinn

recedite wrote: »

That would only be possible to determine if a sibling had died and been among the bones successfully recovered and tested. If the bones of the sibling were not recovered at the site, that person would remain in doubt about their sibling as before. Some people might think that if they came forward and were tested, it might only be opening old wounds and creating false hope. I think very few would come forward, though I could be wrong.

...as opposed to the traditional irish approach of burying things and hoping they go away.

Hotblack Desiato

...then selling a site with 'development potential' for big bucks, take the money and run away from all responsibility.

Anyway.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-survivors-we-want-that-site-fully-excavated-1.3345910

Tuam survivors: ‘We want that site fully excavated’

Mother-and-baby home group renews call for DNA testing and postmortems


Survivors of the Tuam mother-and-baby home, where the remains of hundreds of babies were found last year, have renewed calls for a complete excavation of the site and DNA testing on all the bodies.
...
In a statement on Friday, the Tuam Home Survivors Network said its members had given careful consideration to the expert technical group’s report.

It said it was the view of the members that the only appropriate action was “a complete excavation of the Tuam site to ensure the recovery of all human remains contained there”.

The appropriate actions also included relocation “to an appropriate and secure location of all human remains recoverable at the site”.

The group said the recovery and relocation must be undertaken “with all the expertise and resources necessary to preserve as far as possible, the individual identity of each set of remains”.

They also sought postmortems in respect of each set of human remains and the taking and cataloguing of DNA from all remains “to create the most complete database possible”.

The members said all those who had “reasonable grounds” to believe that members of their family may be buried at the site should be invited to provide their DNA for testing, and that this invitation should be “published widely including the UK and North America”.

Chairman of the Tuam Survivors Network Peter Mulryan also called for the immediate convening of an inquest by the coroner for north Galway, or the appointment by the Attorney General of another coroner, to open such an inquest.

Mr Mulryan said it was “the unambiguous position of the members” of the network that “the bare requirements of law, statutory, constitutional and human rights, nationally and internationally recognised, cannot be met in any other way”.

Cabaal

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-survivors-we-want-that-site-fully-excavated-1.3345910

I'd be extremely surprised if this happens, too many vested interests want the past to remain in the past until all the living victims are dead.

eire4

Cabaal wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-survivors-we-want-that-site-fully-excavated-1.3345910

I'd be extremely surprised if this happens, too many vested interests want the past to remain in the past until all the living victims are dead.

Sadly and disgracefully your more then likely correct but no question this should happen.