Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Odhinn

The Cabinet has been told that it should be possible to develop a voluntary scheme to allow for the collection of biological samples from survivors and others connected to Tuam's mother-and-baby home and in advance of a law being enacted to underpin the process.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0911/1075242-tuam-report/

robindch

Seems a guy named Donal O'Keefe is looking deaths at all mother and baby homes in Ireland up to 1994. He does not paint a pretty picture in this short twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/Donal_OKeeffe/status/1184970417032876033

Odhinn

Should probably come with a blood pressure warning -

Land without God wrote:

The film examines the legacy of Institutional abuse by the Irish Church and State over the last century. The story follows the writer, Gerard Mannix Flynn, together with generations of his family who for the first time, speak openly together about their childhood traumatic experience of being removed from the family home and being incarcerated in children’s homes and industrial institutions run by religious catholic orders.


Here the children worked the land from dawn until dusk, ill-clothed, half-starved day in day out. The regime was merciless.

https://www.landwithoutgod.com/?fbclid=IwAR2ITMQwING4lprf4-dJovx8SAYeDtxcsS29vaw7ZyWNAg6alLKoDkQV1as

A_Lost_Man

Immature / Abnormal people should be banned from marriages. The traditional way of marriage through churches should be banned. Only qualified people should allow for marriages. This is how we can get rid of this problem. T

smacl

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Immature / Abnormal people should be banned from marriages. The traditional way of marriage through churches should be banned. Only qualified people should allow for marriages. This is how we can get rid of this problem. T

Get rid of what problem?

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Immature / Abnormal people should be banned from marriages. The traditional way of marriage through churches should be banned. Only qualified people should allow for marriages. This is how we can get rid of this problem. T

What problem exactly?

Also, using your logic if people in this forum saw you as immature. Does that mean we can get you banned from getting married?

Odhinn

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Immature / Abnormal people should be banned from marriages. The traditional way of marriage through churches should be banned. Only qualified people should allow for marriages. This is how we can get rid of this problem. T

.....what problem? Nuns neglecting infants resulting in deaths far in excess of the average death rate at the time?

aloyisious

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Immature / Abnormal people should be banned from marriages. The traditional way of marriage through churches should be banned. Only qualified people should allow for marriages. This is how we can get rid of this problem. T

Marriages are an optional extra where it comes to the baby-production issue, not the other way round.

A_Lost_Man

Marking graves of unknown babies will not bring them back. Instead of doing this keep those babies alive who are going to die because of negligence.

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Marking graves of unknown babies will not bring them back. Instead of doing this keep those babies alive who are going to die because of negligence.

aww so what you want people to do is forget the past and and move on.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: (Honestly, there isn't enough roll eye's in the world for this)

Nothing to see here folks, move along. Ignore the rape, abuse and dumping of bodies by the catholic church.

Don't want to remind people of the church's dirty work and the blood on its hands, no sir!

tdf7187

Odhinn wrote: »

.....what problem? Nuns neglecting infants resulting in deaths far in excess of the average death rate at the time?

"Nuns neglecting infants".

Would you have wanted to be a nun at that time? A clientelist statelet masquerading as a normal grown up country.

A_Lost_Man

Cabaal wrote: »

aww so what you want people to do is forget the past and and move on.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: (Honestly, there isn't enough roll eye's in the world for this)

Nothing to see here folks, move along. Ignore the rape, abuse and dumping of bodies by the catholic church.

Don't want to remind people of the church's dirty work and the blood on its hands, no sir!

you want people to remember past and forget future and want to create a distraction for people from their real goal, saving humanity. Those unmarked babies who brought them in the world at first place if they were not needed. Churches are not dirty, people are who are misusing their authorities. Any institution could be corrupt if their management is corrupt.

A_Lost_Man

aloyisious wrote: »

Marriages are an optional extra where it comes to the baby-production issue, not the other way round.

In some countries marriages are only legal way to sex. There is no other way some people dont want babies and there is also ban on abortion. Due to this they produce babies unwillingly. There first choice is only sex and for this they need a priest and this fck ceremony. I think priest churches should not be banned in marriage ceremonies. Law and order can make this situation good.

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

you want people to remember past and forget future and want to create a distraction for people from their real goal, saving humanity.

Oh do enlighten us all, from what?

Those unmarked babies who brought them in the world at first place if they were not needed.

err, what?
Want to try typing that again so it makes sense

Churches are not dirty, people are who are misusing their authorities. Any institution could be corrupt if their management is corrupt.

So you agree the entire Catholic church is corrupt then?
Ok so.

A_Lost_Man

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh do enlighten us all, from what?

past is history, future is mystery and today is all that you have is gift, you can waste it on past but better save it for unseen future.

Cabaal wrote: »

err, what?
Want to try typing that again so it makes sense

If babies are not needed only sex is necessary what is need to produce them.

Cabaal wrote: »

So you agree the entire Catholic church is corrupt then?
Ok so.

There may be corruption in church but there are also good people in churches. People take corruption of one man and then say the whole church is corrupt. That is not good.

axer

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Marking graves of unknown babies will not bring them back. Instead of doing this keep those babies alive who are going to die because of negligence.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are a number of issues involved here - not just putting marking the grave:
1. Human trafficking of babies - we know the nuns were involved in human trafficking of babies and we also know birth and death certs were falsified. Is there ~800 baby bodies in the cesspit or just a percentage of that? If only a percentage - where are the rest? Were they trafficked? Are some still alive?
2. Illegal burials - we know the Tuam burial site is an illegal burial place.
3. Covert burials which beg the question what was being hidden? Abuse? Neglect?
4. People have family suspected as having being dumped in the cesspit(s) - would you like to be buried in a sewage tank or your family members?
5. For relatives of the babies who are Catholic, the Tuam cesspit is not consecrated ground. We know for a fact that at least some of those babies suspected of being dumped there were baptised - why are you not furious that this happened? Are baptised babies not entitled to a proper christian burial in consecrated ground?
6. Family members have a legal right under EU law to know the fate of missing relatives.
These are just some of the issues that need to be resolved.

Hotblack Desiato

I wonder would A_Lost_Man say the same about warzones in Bosnia and the like? Leave the mass graves be, nothing to be gained by digging up the past, etc? Or is it different when agents of a church are responsible for mass deaths and illegal burials?

I strongly suspect the reason this is taking so long is that there is no statute of limitations for murder. The possibility of uncovering evidence which will demand murder trials for elderly nuns terrifies the authorities, so spin it out and wait for them to die off. Of course, if somehow brought in for questioning they'll just claim to not to be able to remember anything anyway, justice delayed really is justice denied.

aloyisious

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

past is history, future is mystery and today is all that you have is gift, you can waste it on past but better save it for unseen future.

If you don't keep the past in mind, you end up repeating it. There are reasons to keep the dead in memory and that includes shining a light for your steps in the future. Graves serve a purpose.

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

past is history, future is mystery and today is all that you have is gift, you can waste it on past but better save it for unseen future.

You could apply your outlook on so much of our past, its a very very dangerous outlook.

'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'

The bodies of the babies have already been buried for decades, as have there stories.

Lets not rebury them like you are suggesting so they can be forgotten completely, that would be the biggest injustice we can do to them and their relatives.
The relatives are legally entitled to know what happened to them and why, you'd prefer to deny them their legal right and rebury the past? Are you really that sort of messed up person?

If babies are not needed only sex is necessary what is need to produce them.

Again, not sure what you really mean so I'll assume you mean people just wanted to have sex.

Few issues with that,
- Catholic Church was very much against sex education at the time, many women at the time didn't understand how they would become pregnant.
- Condoms were illegal
- Many women in the homes were pregnant from incest or rape
- Many women were in relationships (but not married) and were happy but the culture created by the church destroyed their lives once they got pregnant.

The shame pushed on people and family's from the catholic church's teachings was immensely strong, many family's folded like a piece of paper under pressure from the local priest.

Reminds me of a story my mother told me about a women down the street, her daughter got pregnant outside of marriage.
Now this women was what many people would call a battle axe, she knew her mind and some were a little afraid of her.

Still, that didn't stop the local priest knocking on her door one day and trying to pressure her into sending the daughter away with the baby.
In not so many words the women told the priest where to go and she helped the daughter raise that child. More power to her!

There may be corruption in church but there are also good people in churches. People take corruption of one man and then say the whole church is corrupt. That is not good.

When its corrupt from the top down its corrupt. End Of. With the pope, cardinals and bishops in the know there's no saving it.

Oh I'm sure there were good people, but sure they have the excuse of just following orders eh?
:rolleyes:

Odhinn

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

past is history, future is mystery and today is all that you have is gift, you can waste it on past but better save it for unseen future.

If babies are not needed only sex is necessary what is need to produce them.



There may be corruption in church but there are also good people in churches. People take corruption of one man and then say the whole church is corrupt. That is not good.

And in english this means.............?

Odhinn

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

If babies are not needed only sex is necessary what is need to produce them.

In plain english,what does that mean?

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

There may be corruption in church but there are also good people in churches. People take corruption of one man and then say the whole church is corrupt. That is not good.

The majority of the church covered for the molesters amongst them. Hence the "whole church" being viewed as corrupt.

Esel

DNFTT

A_Lost_Man

axer wrote: »

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are a number of issues involved here - not just putting marking the grave:
1. Human trafficking of babies - we know the nuns were involved in human trafficking of babies and we also know birth and death certs were falsified. Is there ~800 baby bodies in the cesspit or just a percentage of that? If only a percentage - where are the rest? Were they trafficked? Are some still alive?
2. Illegal burials - we know the Tuam burial site is an illegal burial place.
3. Covert burials which beg the question what was being hidden? Abuse? Neglect?
4. People have family suspected as having being dumped in the cesspit(s) - would you like to be buried in a sewage tank or your family members?
5. For relatives of the babies who are Catholic, the Tuam cesspit is not consecrated ground. We know for a fact that at least some of those babies suspected of being dumped there were baptised - why are you not furious that this happened? Are baptised babies not entitled to a proper christian burial in consecrated ground?
6. Family members have a legal right under EU law to know the fate of missing relatives.
These are just some of the issues that need to be resolved.

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine
2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks
3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.
4 there may be chance these children were sent to clergy on payment to america with the willing of their unmarried mothers because your society at that time under the church does not accept a child from unmarried mother.

pauldla

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine
2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks
3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.
4 there may be chance these children were sent to clergy on payment to america with the willing of their unmarried mothers because your society at that time under the church does not accept a child from unmarried mother.

After reading these comments I too feel lost.

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine

They are not, nothing support your offensive fairytale belief

2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks

More nonsense, based on nothing but your own imagination

3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.

Again, you are looking to re-bury the past, pathetic


Your sort of posts are actually massively offensive,
Its paramount to holocaust denial

Shame on you, you should hang your head in shame

axer

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

1 there are no confirm sources which say 800 bodies were present at site and these bodies could be buried during times of great famine
2 illegal burial. People eat other people when they are hungry . They become just pack of wild dogs when their hunger is not fullfilled. And you are worried about some remains of some dead children during famine i dont care the dead. Even dead in grave or pit. Their bodies will be food of worms in golden tombs and golden coffens or tanks
3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing with the same money they save and built home for today for unmarried mothers and children. Where this investigation lead. What will be the result. Is your goverment going to ban all nuns and church.
4 there may be chance these children were sent to clergy on payment to america with the willing of their unmarried mothers because your society at that time under the church does not accept a child from unmarried mother.

I can see now why you are so clueless being over in the US - you are well behind on the proven information that has come out in the last year or two. You are probably basing your information on someone like John Waters who has been proven to be 100% wrong.

1. You need to read the reports from the Commission of Investigation who performed a test excavation and confirmed without doubt that the bones that are there are not from the famine but point to the period when the mother and baby home was operating at the site.
2. The site is an illegal burial site - bodies were never authorised to be dumped there. You might not care about the law since you are not in Ireland but we do.
3. Your church has never cared for the living. Thankfully we hold our government to a higher accountability than members of the Catholic church have. Again, why are you not furious that baptised babies were buried in ground that was not consecrated?
4. What you are saying here is the church may have been involved in human trafficking. We KNOW the church was involved in human trafficking. Selling babies was illegal when it took place back then and is still illegal. Not only that but the Nuns in Tuam were PAID a lot of money to not only look after the babies but also they were PAID to bury them correctly. Instead they pocketed the money, built a multi billion private healthcare company on the backs of dead and trafficked babies. How does this, as a christian, not infuriated you? Surely Jesus wouldn't approve of this.

robindch

Donal O'Keeffe, who's researching the mother and baby home nationwide, attended a talk in Tuam last Saturday evening by one Brian Nugent who's written a lengthy book which, in essence, denies that anything very notable took place at the Tuam home.

Unfortunately for Mr Nugent, Catherine Corless was also present at the talk and both Ms Corless and Mr O'Keeffe took significant issue with Nugent's evidence, reasoning and conclusions:

https://avondhupress.ie/challenging-those-who-deny-the-tuam-babies/

What seems to be the full talk is available here for anybody who has two hours to spare.

PostWoke

Spring Onion wrote: »

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

'Most'? Uh, maybe a few decades ago...

robindch

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

3 We should care more for the living your Irish goverment under the pressure is wasting dollars to dig old graves for nothing

Hardly worth pointing out that here in Ireland, we don't use US dollars, but a currency called the Euro instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro

Hotblack Desiato

PostWoke wrote: »

'Most'? Uh, maybe a few decades ago...

The majority of kids still do first communion and for almost all of them the preparation takes place in their school.