Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

downinbigsmoke

robindch wrote: »

Donal O'Keeffe, who's researching the mother and baby home nationwide, attended a talk in Tuam last Saturday evening by one Brian Nugent who's written which, in essence, denies that anything very notable took place at the Tuam home.

Unfortunately for Mr Nugent, Catherine Corless was also present at the talk and both Ms Corless and Mr O'Keeffe took significant issue with Nugent's evidence, reasoning and conclusions:



What seems to be the full talk is available for anybody who has two hours to spare.

I wasn't there but I watched the (controversial bits) of the video. I'm not sure if I believe Mr Nugent. At the same time I don't think Ms Corless and Mr O'Keeffe aquitted themselves very well. Certainly the tale related in the linked avondhupress article is not a fair description of what happened.

There were a number of factually false statements made by the (counter-?)protesters that go uncorrected in the article.

There also seemed to be a fair few racist old folk in the audience but I guess that's the price of giving a talk in Connaught!

PostWoke

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The majority of kids still do first communion and for almost all of them the preparation takes place in their school.

And how is that the parents' will?

That example is 100% an issue with church and state (and education), it's got nothing to do with parents wishes.

Unless you're talking about being a ****ty parent and excluding your child from a payday?

You honestly think 100% of parents who have a child do their communion exercise some kind of faith?

Give over, I doubt it's even 10%. Communions and Confirmations are mutual agreement of sorts; church still gets to feel relevant, kids get a Nintendo Switch. That's it.

robindch

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

[...] I watched the (controversial bits) of the video [...]

For the benefit of other forum members, any chance you could say where these bits are?

Most forum members are interested in this topic, but I'm not sure that very many are at a sufficiently loose end that they could spare two hours poking through the entrails of Mr Nugent's thinking on the topic.

ShamNNspace

Listened to it all. Someone coughing all through the talk kind of off-putting however Nugent set out his stall fairly well. I'm from here so I remember the building going on in the late 70s early 80s there are still people alive who worked on that job. Gcc hold a lot of the answers to what happened here it's actually astounding that their records haven't been forensically examined at this stage

Hotblack Desiato

PostWoke wrote: »

And how is that the parents' will?

Even in a catholic school, it's 100% the parents' decision whether their kids do communion and confirmation, or not.

Unless you're talking about being a ****ty parent and excluding your child from a payday?

Ah right, so it's go with the flow and be labelled weak, stand up for what you believe in and be labelled a "****ty parent" ?

Are you saying I'm a "****ty parent" ?

You honestly think 100% of parents who have a child do their communion exercise some kind of faith?

The post I replied to (and the thread's OP which you replied to) didn't say anything about faith. I think you need to read posts much more closely tbh.

Mark Hamill

Odhinn wrote: »

And in english this means.............?

I think.. I think he is quoting Kung Fu panda:

downinbigsmoke

robindch wrote: »

For the benefit of other forum members, any chance you could say where these bits are?

Most forum members are interested in this topic, but I'm not sure that very many are at a sufficiently loose end that they could spare two hours poking through the entrails of Mr Nugent's thinking on the topic.

The shouting tends to start whenever there's just a white screen with someone's name. Catherine Corless starts speaking at 1hr7min in. That's when all hell breaks loose.

Hotblack Desiato

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I think.. I think he is quoting Kung Fu panda:

A_Lost_Man

aloyisious wrote: »

If you don't keep the past in mind, you end up repeating it. There are reasons to keep the dead in memory and that includes shining a light for your steps in the future. Graves serve a purpose.

Graves serve no purpose. They contain only useless dust of the dead under golden tomb. Actually they occupy the space of living. They serve a purpose only for religious. Religious use to bury the dead with honor thinking that they will rise again on the day of judgement and waste million of dollar / euros on the dead to keep them alive. The money they are wasting on the dead with same money they can buy food for the poor. Actually graves, shrine are the reason organised religions are still breathing. Just think out of well and if Europe or ireland is rich doesnot mean other human living in africa are not dying with hunger.

There are grave yards for rich and grave yard for poor. In rich graveyard poor cannt be buried because they are poor. I like the hindu / viking way of burning bodies and send their ashes to rivers. We are the ashen one and dust of star.

Graves are old fashion / science of disposing the dead. Because they our ancestors dont know how to deal with the dead and its smell . So they devise a plan to insult the dead by burying it under six feet mud and claim that the dead is in the heaven. Infact body of dead is being eaten by insect. Actually graves doesnot show an honor to dead body infact it is an insult. A person who lived with you, eaten with you love by you on his death you send him six feet under-mud. Is this you keep the dead living in your memory. Better use science and new way for disposal of dead.

A_Lost_Man

Odhinn wrote: »

The majority of the church covered for the molesters amongst them. Hence the "whole church" being viewed as corrupt.

Again there are good people and bad people in an organization. If organization is run by corrupt people will ultimately become corrupt. It the fault of people not the organization. There are people in churches who love to help the poor. I like that way irrespective of their faith. We should appreciate their good work. Many atheist due to their hate of religion forget good things of church and point out weakness.

smacl

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

aloyisious wrote: »

If you don't keep the past in mind, you end up repeating it. There are reasons to keep the dead in memory and that includes shining a light for your steps in the future. Graves serve a purpose.

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Graves serve no purpose.

I think you'll find Aloyisious' post was clearly a reference remembering the dead, and the atrocious way they met their deaths in this case, through taught history. While Viking and Hindu burial rites are no doubt an interesting topic, they are a total red herring with respect to this discussion. Septic tanks on the other hand....

smacl

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Again there are good people and bad people in an organization. If organization is run by corrupt people will ultimately become corrupt. It the fault of people not the organization. There are people in churches who love to help the poor. I like that way irrespective of their faith. We should appreciate their good work. Many atheist due to their hate of religion forget good things of church and point out weakness.

That there are also good people in the church is not in dispute, there are good and bad people in every large organisation. However, if an organisation knowingly protects and covers up serious criminal activity on the part of some of its members then that organisation is clearly both corrupt and complicit in the crime.

Odhinn

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

Again there are good people and bad people in an organization. If organization is run by corrupt people will ultimately become corrupt. It the fault of people not the organization. There are people in churches who love to help the poor. I like that way irrespective of their faith. We should appreciate their good work. Many atheist due to their hate of religion forget good things of church and point out weakness.

But if its an organisation that put its own internal workings and ethos above that of the state and common morality, its most certainly the organisations fault, which is what happened.

A_Lost_Man

smacl wrote: »

That there are also good people in the church is not in dispute, there are good and bad people in every large organisation. However, if an organisation knowingly protects and covers up serious criminal activity on the part of some of its members then that organisation is clearly both corrupt and complicit in the crime.

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs. What is meaning of serious criminal activities like fckng children . That also happens in private organization, harassing of females and children. They also try to cover up. It is not the fault of church but few bad people. The story of burying 800 children in tank. There are no cofirm sources about that.

Ok let says church is corrupt what is alternative. what will do your next. demolish or ban churches. What will people do when they will not find a place to worship Jesus. Will you provide them another god. Are you going to make whole world atheist.

smacl

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs. What is meaning of serious criminal activities like fckng children . That also happens in private organization, harassing of females and children. They also try to cover up. It is not the fault of church but few bad people. The story of burying 800 children in tank. There are no cofirm sources about that.

It is the fault of the church because they worked strenuously to cover up these crimes including moving abusive priests from one parish to the next so they could repeat their crimes. This is a worldwide phenomenon and an endemic problem with the Catholic and other large churches.

Ok let says church is corrupt what is alternative. what will do your next. demolish or ban churches. What will people do when they will not find a place to worship Jesus. Will you provide them another god. Are you going to make whole world atheist.

What is being done is that the church is being made to make reparations for its crimes. This doesn't involve demolishing churches nor denying anyone their faith. It is about acknowledging their misdeeds, apologising to the victims including financial reparation where appropriate and having those directly involved face criminal charges.

One of the main reasons that people are abandoning the church in droves is the church's refusal to properly and reasonably engage in the above and their resultant loss of trust by the public at large. For example, as a function of the total number of abuse cases that involve the clergy, how many of them have been brought to the attention of the judiciary by the church unprompted?

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs.

The church is very much an exception due to the sheer amount of systematic , worldwide, organized cover ups of sexual abuse and rape of children, along with the selling of babies for profit and the mistreatment of women.

Oh they also have repeatedly made it difficult for investigations to occur, have have refused to release records to a UN investigation and still owe many hundreds of millions in compensation to abuse victims.

Name one organization who has covered up the same crimes on this level?

A_Lost_Man

Cabaal wrote: »

The church is very much an exception due to the sheer amount of systematic , worldwide, organized cover ups of sexual abuse and rape of children, along with the selling of babies for profit and the mistreatment of women.

Oh they also have repeatedly made it difficult for investigations to occur, have have refused to release records to a UN investigation and still owe many hundreds of millions in compensation to abuse victims.

Name one organization who has covered up the same crimes on this level?

UN Always try to cover up its peacekeeper SEX ABUSE in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cases of sexual abuse committed by UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia in the 90s and You are asking same UN to investigate crimes by Church an irony

The high horse brigade

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

UN Always try to cover up its peacekeeper SEX ABUSE in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cases of sexual abuse committed by UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia in the 90s and You are asking same UN to investigate crimes by Church an irony

Whataboutery

Cabaal

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

UN Always try to cover up its peacekeeper SEX ABUSE in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cases of sexual abuse committed by UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia in the 90s and You are asking same UN to investigate crimes by Church an irony

Cover-up? Hmm, not really, the abuses were known but the issues were more inaction then anything. These are issues certainly and need to be addressed but hardly a cover-up like the church.
The UN isn't like a world government, countrys can and do choose not ignore UN recommendations on an issue.....the Vatican for example has refused to co-operate with UN investigations. Actions against military personnel can vary country to country depending on their own rules.

Your example is flawed, in the case of the catholic church the abuses were very well known and the church had specific rules to cover it up, silence the victims and they enabled the abusers to abuse more,.

Are you proposing the UN has such rules?
Got anything to back up your claims?

aloyisious

A_Lost_Man wrote: »

That's every organisation do to save its reputation when it finds something wrongs. What is meaning of serious criminal activities like fckng children . That also happens in private organization, harassing of females and children. They also try to cover up. It is not the fault of church but few bad people. The story of burying 800 children in tank. There are no cofirm sources about that.

Ok let says church is corrupt what is alternative. what will do your next. demolish or ban churches. What will people do when they will not find a place to worship Jesus. Will you provide them another god. Are you going to make whole world atheist.

Re the sources, are you saying there were no child or baby skeleton remains at all in the tank? Are you saying that the church said there were no child or baby skeleton remains found in the tank? You said you don't agree with burials so the burials there, following your train of thought, would be a corrupt act by the nuns.

Re the future of the corrupt church and worship of Christ, the answer is there in the bible for you, go into the church [temple-place] as Jesus did and throw out the corrupt people. Do that and you'll have no need to worry about having a place to pray. Its the people inside you need to worry about, not the building or banning.

robindch

European Commission to investigate mother and baby homes

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40062500.html

Irish Examiner wrote:

The European Commission is to investigate allegations about the Irish State’s treatment of women in mother and baby homes. It is also to investigate allegations about the way the State has treated survivors of those homes.

Earlier this year, the Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors in Ireland petitioned the commission for an investigation. It called for an investigation into “breaches of human rights” that occurred in the homes and for an examination of “the wider official system” that “facilitated” forced adoptions of children from those homes.

On Thursday, the commission told the coalition their petition for an investigation has been “declared admissible”. The European Commission has now been asked to conduct a preliminary investigation of the issues raised. It has also been referred to the European Parliament Coordinator on Children's Rights.

Paul Jude Redmond, of the Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors in Ireland, said: "We are delighted the European Parliament has decided to recognise our appalling treatment at the hands of successive Irish Governments." Clodagh Malone, a survivor of St Patrick's Mother and Baby Home, said: "We may think we're finished with Ireland's past but the past is not finished with us.”

Up to 7,000 babies and children are believed to have died in mother and baby homes. Their bodies have lain for decades in what were mostly unmarked graves on abandoned wasteland adjoining graveyards. Among the various homes in Ireland at one point were those run by the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary who arrived in Ireland in 1922.

As well as Castlepollard in Co Westmeath, the congregation ran two other mother and baby homes, one of which — the Bessborough Centre in Cork — was open from 1922 until 1996. Sean Ross Abbey, another home in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, was where Philomena Lee's son was forcibly given up for adoption — something that became the subject of 2013’s Oscar-nominated film starring Judi Dench.

A common cause of baby deaths was marasmus — a severe form of malnutrition, commonly found in babies born in famine-hit countries. An estimated 4,800 children were born in Sean Ross Abbey and at least 700 of them are believed to have died between 1930 and 1950. No figures are available for those who died subsequently but researchers estimate around a total 1,200 died by the time the facility closed in 1969. Some 3,763 babies were born in Castlepollard over its 35 years from 1935 to 1971. Of these, 2,500 were allegedly adopted out and an estimated 200-300 died.

eire4

robindch wrote: »

European Commission to investigate mother and baby homes

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40062500.html

An utter disgrace that it takes the EU to make this happen. The Irish government once again an utter disgrace when it comes to the victims of abuse by the church.
Absolutely unconscionable how badly they have and are been treated by our government who clearly just want to keep dragging this out in the hopes as many of the victims as possible die and they have as little as possible to deal with. Utterly disgusting.

Cabaal

eire4 wrote: »

An utter disgrace that it takes the EU to make this happen. The Irish government once again an utter disgrace when it comes to the victims of abuse by the church.
Absolutely unconscionable how badly they have and are been treated by our government who clearly just want to keep dragging this out in the hopes as many of the victims as possible die and they have as little as possible to deal with. Utterly disgusting.

This is typical for Ireland though,

So many things in Ireland would not have changed only for the EU forced the positive change, environmental laws are a prime example of this refusal to change

eire4

Cabaal wrote: »

This is typical for Ireland though,

So many things in Ireland would not have changed only for the EU forced the positive change, environmental laws are a prime example of this refusal to change

Sadly your absolutely spot on, very good example too with environmental laws.

ozmo

eire4 wrote: »

Sadly your absolutely spot on, very good example too with environmental laws.

I approve of all the EU laws and protections they have given us

- except maybe that stupid EU Browser Cookie law - I'm so sick of clicking I do/don't accept on every page I visit.

Hotblack Desiato

Install NoScript and disable the cookielaw script

eire4

ozmo wrote: »

I approve of all the EU laws and protections they have given us

- except maybe that stupid EU Browser Cookie law - I'm so sick of clicking I do/don't accept on every page I visit.

So funny and true and the same time with those cookie things. Totally agree with you on the EU protections for sure. Nothing is perfect but overall no doubt in my mind we are better for them.

Gael23

The point I made quite some time ago.

Some of the women that gave birth to babies here in the 1940s and 50s May still be alive. These are now at an advanced age and many had difficult lives so let them live what’s left of their life without digging this up

Bannasidhe

Gael23 wrote: »

The point I made quite some time ago.

Some of the women that gave birth to babies here in the 1940s and 50s May still be alive. These are now at an advanced age and many had difficult lives so let them live what’s left of their life without digging this up

And what about the women who do support 'digging this up' ( an unfortunately tasteless choice of words)?
Should they forever be condemned to have the horror inflicted upon them by Church and State brushed under the carpet?
It is up to individual women to decide whether to participate or not- and that is as it should be.
But no-one has the right to impose silence on others, especially not on those who were rendered voiceless for so long.

eire4

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And what about the women who do support 'digging this up' ( an unfortunately tasteless choice of words)?
Should they forever be condemned to have the horror inflicted upon by Church and State them brushed under the carpet?
It is up to individual women to decide whether to participate or not- and that is as it should be.
But no-one has the right to impose silence on others, especially not on those who were rendered voiceless for so long.

Could not agree more. If there are some who were victims of this church abuse who do not want to revisit that trauma at this late stage of their lives that is fine. But there must be justice and recompense for the victims who do want it. In addition beyond that all the horrors of and what was done must be brought to light and the church held to account so that this can never happen again.