Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

PlaneSpeeking · 05-09-2018 3:10pm

end of the road wrote: »

that's not what she said. she said that an employer has a right to dictate what you do and don't wear within reason.

And you clearly think a 1" high plain cross that can barely be seen should be banned, yet a Muslim colleague can wear the full KKK away kit and that is "within reason".

Odhinn · 05-09-2018 3:14pm

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Actually Odhinn,

No, Iran pre-1979 was a fairly common holiday destination, way more than Turkey is nowadays, then along came ayatollah khomeini and ousted the Shah.

The shah paid 20% of iranian oil revenue to the western powers that put him on his throne, he ran a police state that was strong on torture - akin to pinochets regime. They overthrew a democractic regime in the process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

jmayo · 05-09-2018 3:15pm

Dannyriver wrote: »

Google the Lebanese civil war ...

Ah yes yet another conflict involving islam and it's primary strains.

Odhinn wrote: »

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

+1

Google Iran in the early 70s and before.

Better than the rancid ****hole it became.

Utter nonsense.

I seriously wonder what parallel universe some of you jokers live in.

The likes of Iran (and even Afghanistan) offered more freedoms and opportunities for women and minorities in the 1960s and 1970s than they have had in the decades since.
And why pray tell us is that ?

Only someone either an eejit or wilfully ignoring the facts of the influence of a certain religion would claim otherwise.

IBrows89 wrote: »

Fair enough, I can understand that.

But hate breeds more hate and it's an endless cycle.

The thing is if someone is wearing the likes of a burka, they are probably a fairly strict believer.
Now you as a non believer can love them all you want, it won't change their opinion of you and their view of you being lesser to them because afterall you are a kafir at the end of the day.

Odhinn · 05-09-2018 3:17pm

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes yet another conflict involving islam and it's primary strains.

I seriously wonder what parallel universe some of you jokers live in.

The likes of Iran (and even Afghanistan) offered more freedoms and opportunities for women and minorities in the 1960s and 1970s than they have had in the decades since.
And why pray tell us is that ?

Being able to show off your hairdo while being dragged off by the SAVAK for 'freedom tickling'?

Dannyriver · 05-09-2018 3:18pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And you clearly think a 1" high plain cross that can barely be seen should be banned, yet a Muslim colleague can wear the full KKK away kit and that is "within reason".

While I think it's a funny analogy I'm not so sure you meant it as a joke and I think that kind of lack of understanding is the root of the problem.

Taytoland · 05-09-2018 3:19pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

So you think people shouldn't mock Nazism or Communism with a drawing? Are some ideologies more equal than others? Mock away is what I say.

Life of Brian is one of my favourites - watched in the night before my Confirmation Mass.

Some "faiths" are just pathetically touchy, if we were the same my auntie would have blew up John Cleese.

Pathetic is an understatement. All ideas have to be open to criticism and mockery. Islam can be no different.

end of the road · 05-09-2018 3:21pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

The people wearing the burka have abhorrent views on the gay community - hence the fact I view them with loathing and mistrust.

no doubt some are but all of them? how would you know that exactly?

end of the road · 05-09-2018 3:26pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And you clearly think a 1" high plain cross that can barely be seen should be banned, yet a Muslim colleague can wear the full KKK away kit and that is "within reason".

nope, i think employers shouldn't be able to bann religious symbols from the work place.

05-09-2018 3:29pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And you clearly think a 1" high plain cross that can barely be seen should be banned, yet a Muslim colleague can wear the full KKK away kit and that is "within reason".

I don't think anyone on here, not eotr nor me either, stated that we think a cross should be banned.
We said, again, your employer makes the rules. Don't like them? Leave.
& when did your apology change from a muslim parent to a Muslim colleague?

jmayo · 05-09-2018 3:32pm

Odhinn wrote: »

The shah paid 20% of iranian oil revenue to the western powers that put him on his throne, he ran a police state that was strong on torture - akin to pinochets regime. They overthrew a democractic regime in the process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

But did the regime have laws to make the following punishable by death ?

For instance acts such as “insulting the prophet,” apostasy, same-sex relations, adultery, and certain non-violent drug-related offenses are seen as crimes punishable by death.

Did the Shah's regime have the following rules ?
A married woman may not obtain a passport or travel outside the country without the written permission of her husband.
Or a married woman can be prevented by her husband from having certain occupations.

Iranian law denies freedom of religion to Baha’is and discriminates against them. At least 92 Baha’is were held in Iran’s prisons as of November 2017.

AFAIK it is only in the last decade that stoning for adulterous women was only phased out with a moratorium being placed on it in 2002.

Then again here is link to amnesty which I am sure all the luvvies will find very hard to argue against.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/iran-woman-sentenced-be-buried-chest-and-stoned-death

Some human rights organisations say that between 4,000-6,000 gay men and lesbians have been executed in Iran since 1979.
Not sure if that is correct but gay people are given tips on what not to do when in Iran.

The Shah was no great shakes but dear god the iran created by khomeini was barbaric in some respects.

Odhinn · 05-09-2018 3:35pm

jmayo wrote: »

But did the regime (.................) created by khomeini was barbaric in some respects.

As bad as the current lot are, its at least run by iranians for iranians, not a tinpot shia version of saudi.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-09-2018 3:52pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't think anyone on here, not eotr nor me either, stated that we think a cross should be banned.
We said, again, your employer makes the rules. Don't like them? Leave.
& when did your apology change from a muslim parent to a Muslim colleague?

Believe me, we have both.

Whilst I grudgingly accept we can do f**k all about parents, colleagues are not supported.

We have had female workers, gay male workers etc - all ignored by visitors.
They tend to call over the nearest straight looking bloke and complain "I won't talk to this person, get me a gentleman". Right in front of you. No one says anything against them.

All for the money they bring in. Just out of line.

Either we're treated the same, or something is badly wrong here.

dennispenn · 05-09-2018 3:55pm

end of the road wrote: »

no doubt some are but all of them? how would you know that exactly?

You could ask them?
Which channel 4 did.
The results aren't good for gay people.

But they didn't have to poll them to find out what they really think.
Perhaps I'm being unfair,if they did the polling in an Islamic majority country,perhaps the results would be different. ðŸ˜

05-09-2018 3:57pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Believe me, we have both.

Whilst I grudgingly accept we can do f**k all about parents, colleagues are not supported.

We have had female workers, gay male workers etc - all ignored by visitors.
They tend to call over the nearest straight looking bloke and complain "I won't talk to this person, get me a gentleman". Right in front of you. No one says anything against them.

All for the money they bring in. Just out of line.

Either we're treated the same, or something is badly wrong here.

But you are comparing different things.
Your employer has to treat the employees the same way.
Your customers or whatever can do or say whatever they want.
There are rude obnoxious people in all walks of life, & yes I have encountered many.
But what do you think should happen? Do you think your employer should start making rules for people they do not employ?

05-09-2018 3:59pm

dennispenn wrote: »

You could ask them?
Which channel 4 did.
The results aren't good for gay people.

But they didn't have to poll them to find out what they really think.
Perhaps I'm being unfair,if they did the polling in an Islamic majority country,perhaps the results would be different. ðŸ˜

Chanel 4 asked 1000 people, out of 2.6 million Muslims in Britain.
Do you have any idea where these muslims are from or how they were picked? I don't.

dennispenn · 05-09-2018 4:10pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Chanel 4 asked 1000 people, out of 2.6 million Muslims in Britain.
Do you have any idea where these muslims are from or how they were picked? I don't.

Unlike many other surveys of Muslim opinion, which have predominantly been done by phone or online, ICM used face-to-face, in-home research to question a representative sample of 1,000 Muslims across Great Britain. ICM also used a “control sample” to compare what British Muslims thought with the rest of the British population.

At the top-line level, the survey suggests that a mainstream British Muslim majority have similar values and attitudes to the wider British public on issues such as support for British institutions and a feeling of belonging to Britain.

But looking deeper into the results, a chasm develops between those Muslims surveyed and the wider population on attitudes to liberal values on issues such as gender equality, homosexuality and issues relating to freedom of expression. And it also reveals significant differences on attitudes to violence and terrorism.

The survey’s findings include:

34% would inform the police if they thought somebody they knew was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria

Q: If you thought that someone who is close to you was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria, would you report it to the police?

52% do not believe that homosexuality should be legal in Britain

Q: To what extent you agree or disagree with each one: homosexuality should be legal in Britain?

Net agree 18% (strongly agree 8%, tend to agree 10%)

Net disagree: 52% (strongly disagree: 38%, tend to disagree: 14%)

47% do not believe that it is acceptable for a school teacher to be homosexual

Q: To what extent do you agree or disagree that it is acceptable for a homosexual person to be a teacher in a school?

Net disagree: 47% (strongly disagree: 35%, tend to disagree: 12%)

ICM Unlimited interviewed a random sample of 1,081 adults aged 18+ who self-identified themselves as belonging to the Muslim faith. Interviews were carried out face-to-face, in-home, in geographical areas in which minimum Muslims incidence was confirmed by Census to be a minimum of 20%. Interviews took place between 25th April and 31st May 2015 and the data has been weighted to representative of all Muslims by age, gender, work status and region.

A nationally representative control sample of 1,008 adults aged 18+ was also conducted, by telephone, between 5th-7th June 2015. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults.

For a copy of the full survey, please visit: www.icmunlimited.com

05-09-2018 4:23pm

Thanks for that, I will read the whole thing later.
It seems though that more 'upper class'
Muslims think differently to the 'lower classes'?

Cordell · 05-09-2018 4:33pm

52% do not believe that homosexuality should be legal in Britain
47% do not believe that it is acceptable for a school teacher to be homosexual

This is strange - some of those that think that homosexuality should be illegal also think that is acceptable that a school teacher to be homosexual. In a face to face survey, if I were to be the surveyor, I would go back and clarify when faced with such a strange reply.

Dannyriver · 05-09-2018 4:57pm

dennispenn wrote: »

Unlike many other surveys of Muslim opinion, which have predominantly been done by phone or online, ICM used face-to-face, in-home research to question a representative sample of 1,000 Muslims across Great Britain. ICM also used a “control sample” to compare what British Muslims thought with the rest of the British population.

At the top-line level, the survey suggests that a mainstream British Muslim majority have similar values and attitudes to the wider British public on issues such as support for British institutions and a feeling of belonging to Britain.

But looking deeper into the results, a chasm develops between those Muslims surveyed and the wider population on attitudes to liberal values on issues such as gender equality, homosexuality and issues relating to freedom of expression. And it also reveals significant differences on attitudes to violence and terrorism.

The survey’s findings include:

34% would inform the police if they thought somebody they knew was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria

Q: If you thought that someone who is close to you was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria, would you report it to the police?

52% do not believe that homosexuality should be legal in Britain

Q: To what extent you agree or disagree with each one: homosexuality should be legal in Britain?

Net agree 18% (strongly agree 8%, tend to agree 10%)

Net disagree: 52% (strongly disagree: 38%, tend to disagree: 14%)

47% do not believe that it is acceptable for a school teacher to be homosexual

Q: To what extent do you agree or disagree that it is acceptable for a homosexual person to be a teacher in a school?

Net disagree: 47% (strongly disagree: 35%, tend to disagree: 12%)

ICM Unlimited interviewed a random sample of 1,081 adults aged 18+ who self-identified themselves as belonging to the Muslim faith. Interviews were carried out face-to-face, in-home, in geographical areas in which minimum Muslims incidence was confirmed by Census to be a minimum of 20%. Interviews took place between 25th April and 31st May 2015 and the data has been weighted to representative of all Muslims by age, gender, work status and region.

A nationally representative control sample of 1,008 adults aged 18+ was also conducted, by telephone, between 5th-7th June 2015. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults.

For a copy of the full survey, please visit: www.icmunlimited.com

read this one as well while your at it

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/british-muslims-ipsos-mori-liberal-imams-islam-a8334196.html

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/review-survey-research-muslims-britain-0

dennispenn · 05-09-2018 5:51pm

Dannyriver wrote: »

read this one as well while your at it

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/british-muslims-ipsos-mori-liberal-imams-islam-a8334196.html

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/review-survey-research-muslims-britain-0

I did. Why did you post these links?

First link is to an opinion piece in the independent where Zack hassan, whoever he is, tells us that young Muslims are becoming more liberal. This is only his opinion of course. He cites maajid nawaz as a reformist. I assume he is talking about reforming Islam? Do you know who maajid nawaz is?

He's a man who "actively recruited Pakistani army officer's" to overthrow a government in Egypt
He was thrown in jail there for his jihadi ways.
He's free now though to commentate and share his view's on Islam to the British public, talking about reform is an absolute joke! But a cunning wordsmith like nawaz can easily fool the kufar. It is only the people who pay close attention to the ex jihadi can see right through him. He's a narcissistic racist!

jmayo · 05-09-2018 6:45pm

Odhinn wrote: »

As bad as the current lot are, its at least run by iranians for iranians, not a tinpot shia version of saudi.

That must be comforting to the poor woman buried up to her neck in sand about to be stoned to death.

Or perhaps to the gay guy about to fooked off a building.

Or perhaps to those about to be strung up on a crane.

I can just imagine they are thinking

"at least it's my own fellow citizens that are doing this to me, it would be much worse if it was those evil Americans behind it."

Jaysus h on a bicycle you guys really do search for any type of excusitory shyte when it comes to your preferred religion.

Wibbs · 05-09-2018 6:52pm

Dannyriver wrote: »

read this one as well while your at it

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/british-muslims-ipsos-mori-liberal-imams-islam-a8334196.html

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/review-survey-research-muslims-britain-0

Basically the same results, but read from the other angle.

Me. Previously. wrote: »

A survey was commissioned by Channel 4 into attitudes among British Muslims. Now there were some encouraging positives. Things like a feeling of being "British" and a strong feeling of belonging in their local area(I'd be more interested to see the survey account for how many were living in areas that were predominantly folks with similar backgrounds) were higher than background. There also was a very low level of support for acts of terror. However, over half thought homosexuality shouldn't be legal and nearly half thought Gay people shouldn't be teachers. Nearly a quarter believed Sharia law should be introduced in some areas. Over a third thought wives should always obey their husbands. One in six wanted to live separately to the background culture.

[emphasis mine]

Note - and contrary to those who may think me a nazi - I looked at both sides, both positive and negative. The more extreme anti Islam will only concentrate on the negatives and ignore the rest, the more extreme "right on" will only concentrate on the positives and ignore the rest. And this is precisely what we're seeing here. Not a shock.

Saw that earlier when Odhinn posted that ME countries were doing their part and he got thanked for it, even though his figures were plucked from the air and not based on reality. One's position going in leads to blinkers to anything outside of it. On both sides.

jmayo · 05-09-2018 6:54pm

dennispenn wrote: »

I did. Why did you post these links?

First link is to an opinion piece in the independent where Zack hassan, whoever he is, tells us that young Muslims are becoming more liberal. This is only his opinion of course. He cites maajid nawaz as a reformist. I assume he is talking about reforming Islam? Do you know who maajid nawaz is?

He's a man who "actively recruited Pakistani army officer's" to overthrow a government in Egypt
He was thrown in jail there for his jihadi ways.
He's free now though to commentate and share his view's on Islam to the British public, talking about reform is an absolute joke! But a cunning wordsmith like nawaz can easily fool the kufar. It is only the people who pay close attention to the ex jihadi can see right through him. He's a narcissistic racist!

He is one of the few muslims and ex radical at that who has openly, with big risk to his own safety, criticised muslims and islam.

You do know he has supported Tommy Robinson and they actually get on well?
He was one of the few, even among non muslims, who backed Robinson's assertion that muslim men were far more likely to be involved in child grooming gangs in Britain.

But now all the anti Robinson brigade will use your quote above about Maajid Nawaz being a "narcissistic racist" and that is why he gets on so well with Robinson. :rolleyes:

Wibbs · 05-09-2018 7:07pm

jmayo wrote: »

I can just imagine they are thinking

"at least it's my own fellow citizens that are doing this to me, it would be much worse if it was those evil Americans."

Well the new "Left" hate America and Israel as a general rule, so any stick to beat them with. They also have this orientalist love going on, as well as cultural relativism as a given(save for western culture which is usually seen as bankrupt).

There is no argument that the Shah was a complete tyrant who with the help of the Yanks(and others) raped the country of resources. He was also a moron. No really. His aides have backed that up. It was high ranking lackeys that ran things. The Iranian cities "modernised", but the rural areas stayed true to the old ways to a much larger extent. The revolution was a near foregone conclusion and that the Ayatollahs would come back to fill the power void. They were welcomed back. For good reasons. Then as revolutions tend to do they lost the run of themselves and people, particularly the educated started to ask WTF. It did indeed became a "tinpot shia version of saudi". Shows how much of a grasp of history some have.

Persians tend to be a practical people mind you, so there's a much larger element of "ah sure it'll be grand like" at the grassroots level compared crapholes like Saudi Arabia. Of all the ME nations I'd be willing to bet that Iran would head to more liberal than any of them and it would be stemming from a more deep cultural basis too. If they were geographically in the mix I'd welcome Iran into the EU far more quickly than somewhere like Turkey. However, so long as the US paints Iran the boogyman in the region, and paint them they do, because they're running out of them*, that'll be in the back burner.

*and they can't piss off the Saudis. If Saudi had no oil, it would be a holy Islamic tourist trap and little else and the Yanks wouldn't give them an inch if they got bolshie. As ever, money talks. At the moment.

Dannyriver · 05-09-2018 7:28pm

dennispenn wrote: »

I did. Why did you post these links?

First link is to an opinion piece in the independent where Zack hassan, whoever he is, tells us that young Muslims are becoming more liberal. This is only his opinion of course. He cites maajid nawaz as a reformist. I assume he is talking about reforming Islam? Do you know who maajid nawaz is?

He's a man who "actively recruited Pakistani army officer's" to overthrow a government in Egypt
He was thrown in jail there for his jihadi ways.
He's free now though to commentate and share his view's on Islam to the British public, talking about reform is an absolute joke! But a cunning wordsmith like nawaz can easily fool the kufar. It is only the people who pay close attention to the ex jihadi can see right through him. He's a narcissistic racist!

The thing I enjoy about you most is your assumption that the only reason anyone is not up in arms about the imminent invasion of radical Islam and it's master plan to turn western democracy into Sharia law is the fact that we are not informed 'woke' to the threat. Sleep walking stuck in an echo chamber of liberal fake news. Twice now you ve asked me whether I'm aware of people Douglas Murray earlier in the thread and now Majiid Nawaz. Yes I am aware of both and have listened to what both have to say ...as a matter of interest do you not find it interesting that you don t like Majisd Nawaz and neither do Islamic extremists...which if I were to use a venn diagram there would be a rather large union where they intersect where you would be sitting pretty with the ISIS boys.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/review-survey-research-muslims-britain-0

PS you ignored the second independent survey...is that fake news?

Galwayguy35 · 05-09-2018 7:29pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't think anyone on here, not eotr nor me either, stated that we think a cross should be banned.
We said, again, your employer makes the rules. Don't like them? Leave.
& when did your apology change from a muslim parent to a Muslim colleague?

And if the employer told a muslim to remove the burqa would you say they should just leave as well?

After all its just a religious symbol.

Dannyriver · 05-09-2018 7:31pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Basically the same results, but read from the other angle.

[emphasis mine]

Note - and contrary to those who may think me a nazi - I looked at both sides, both positive and negative. The more extreme anti Islam will only concentrate on the negatives and ignore the rest, the more extreme "right on" will only concentrate on the positives and ignore the rest. And this is precisely what we're seeing here. Not a shock.

Saw that earlier when Odhinn posted that ME countries were doing their part and he got thanked for it, even though his figures were plucked from the air and not based on reality. One's position going in leads to blinkers to anything outside of it. On both sides.[/QUOTE]

Agreed that s why all research needs to be robust and rigourous and tested for bias...an objective meta analysis is probably the only way to get a true picture.

Vincent Vega · 05-09-2018 7:39pm

I've been wondering how things like knitted beard hats might be affected by any legislation introduced to ban face covering.

Surely it wouldn't make them illegal too?

Dannyriver · 05-09-2018 7:40pm

jmayo wrote: »

That must be comforting to the poor woman buried up to her neck in sand about to be stoned to death.

Or perhaps to the gay guy about to fooked off a building.

Or perhaps to those about to be strung up on a crane.

I can just imagine they are thinking

"at least it's my own fellow citizens that are doing this to me, it would be much worse if it was those evil Americans behind it."

Jaysus h on a bicycle you guys really do search for any type of excusitory shyte when it comes to your preferred religion.

I ve always found the US to be pretty evil whether it be democrat /republican Obama or Clinton , they ve been a worldwide bully since the second world war, ****ing with nation sovereignty throughout the world , just as imperielist as Russia . Just because a person thinks Trump's a **** doesn't mean they love Hillary. It's that infantile black and white good and evil that s perpetuated by social media which demands simple narratives that has seen the greatest shift in world politics in the past 20 years. And now the genie is out of the bottle the train is unstoppable and the consequences won t be pretty that s for sure.

05-09-2018 7:40pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And if the employer told a muslim to remove the burqa would you say they should just leave as well?

After all its just a religious symbol.

If it was a workplace rule that religious symbols should not be worn, then yes.
One rule for all employees, you cannot discriminate.
I would imagine the issue would be known before someone gets the job though.

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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