Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

dfx- · 23-08-2018 08:24AM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Cashless buses are nothing new and have existed long before the advent of smartcards, contactless cards and mobile phone payment. Many cities have had cashless buses since the abandonment of conductors. In Rome for example you buy a ticket in a shop before you board which is valid on all buses and trams for 90 mins or one metro or suburban rail journey and it's been like that for years.

I personally DB should have gone cashless twenty years ago with Travel 90 tickets only before the advent of Leap cards.

There is no need to go fully cashless, regardless of what they've done in Rome or anywhere else and how new or old it is.

You can have as many options as you like to pay as you have in other cities including cash and contactless...at the same time.:eek::eek:

punisher5112 · 23-08-2018 08:40AM

dfx- wrote: »

There is no need to go fully cashless, regardless of what they've done in Rome or anywhere else and how new or old it is.

You can have as many options as you like to pay as you have in other cities including cash and contactless...at the same time.:eek::eek:

It's changing times as a whole we are slowly moving away from cash.

Yes it can be awkward and people will just need to get use to the idea.

We need things as simple as possible as buses especially are held up all the time with what has being discussed before many times.

A simple fare system and easy way to pay by card will speed things up.

I come across tourists daily that have no issue what so ever getting a leap card just the same as the systems are in their home country.

Qrt · 23-08-2018 10:00AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Set up an auto-topup of your leap card and you'll never have to go near a shop again.

Unfortunately, you'd have to "collect" it from the shop...

Hurrache · 23-08-2018 10:07AM

punisher5112 wrote: »

It's changing times as a whole we are slowly moving away from cash.

Yes it can be awkward and people will just need to get use to the idea.

We need things as simple as possible as buses especially are held up all the time with what has being discussed before many times.

A simple fare system and easy way to pay by card will speed things up.

I come across tourists daily that have no issue what so ever getting a leap card just the same as the systems are in their home country.

I live my life pretty much completely cashless. Only time I take money out is if I'm going out for a night, and even at that I often go without cash and ask for cash back in the first bar I get to.

It's an argument and point I've made over and over, moving away from accepting cash and a paper refund system should not be done until the other solutions are put in place.

dfx- wrote: »

There is no need to go fully cashless, regardless of what they've done in Rome or anywhere else and how new or old it is.

You can have as many options as you like to pay as you have in other cities including cash and contactless...at the same time.:eek::eek:

Outside of Rome, bus services in Italy provide such facilities.

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2018 10:09AM

Qrt wrote: »

Unfortunately, you'd have to "collect" it from the shop...

Do you? Not according to dublin bus. Touching either validator on a bus is sufficient. https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News-Archive/Introducing-Leap-Card-Auto-Top-Up/

punisher5112 · 23-08-2018 10:12AM

Qrt wrote: »

Unfortunately, you'd have to "collect" it from the shop...

Not true at all.

wench · 23-08-2018 10:23AM

Qrt wrote: »

Unfortunately, you'd have to "collect" it from the shop...

That is only for an online topup, not the auto topup.

Qrt · 23-08-2018 10:38AM

wench wrote: »

That is only for an online topup, not the auto topup.

...what? That makes no sense at all? Auto topic is just an automated online topup, no? How do the DB validators know there's sufficient credit?

wench · 23-08-2018 10:40AM

Qrt wrote: »

...what? That makes no sense at all? Auto topic is just an automated online topup, no? How do the DB validators know there's sufficient credit?

When you tag on and your balance drops below €10, it adds €30 and updates your card.

That is then automatically debited from your account a few days later.

The issue with online topup is that at some point your card has to have the updated balance applied.

Podge_irl · 23-08-2018 10:46AM

Qrt wrote: »

...what? That makes no sense at all? Auto topic is just an automated online topup, no? How do the DB validators know there's sufficient credit?

The card is marked as having auto-topup enabled (you will indeed need to go to a proper validator the first time you activate it). Because of this the Dublin Bus reader essentially knows that it can allow your card to work even if the credit runs out as it knows it will soon be topped up automatically.

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2018 10:48AM

wench wrote: »

When you tag on and your balance drops below €10, it adds €30 and updates your card.

That is then automatically debited from your account a few days later.

The issue with online topup is that at some point your card has to have the updated balance applied.

can the leap app not do that?

wench · 23-08-2018 10:55AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can the leap app not do that?

Yes if you have NFC that can communicate with the chip on the card.

The original online topup via the website updates your account, but the card still needs to be told at a terminal.

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2018 10:57AM

wench wrote: »

Yes if you have NFC that can communicate with the chip on the card.

The original online topup via the website updates your account, but the card still needs to be told at a terminal.

yes but can the leap app not tell the card that it has been topped up? what is stopping that?

Podge_irl · 23-08-2018 10:58AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yes but can the leap app not tell the card that it has been topped up? what is stopping that?

Nothing, it just needs to have NFC.

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2018 10:59AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Nothing, it just needs to have NFC.

right so, if you have the leap app and a phone with NFC do you need to go to a load location after an online topup or can you collect the topup using your phone and the leap app?

Qrt · 23-08-2018 11:03AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

right so, if you have the leap app and a phone with NFC do you need to go to a load location after an online topup or can you collect the topup using your phone and the leap app?

You can use the app.

punisher5112 · 23-08-2018 11:05AM

If you have nfc you top up on your phone, you wouldn't need to do online say on a laptop in that case.

Everything is on the card the machines just read what's on it.

If one has auto top up enabled the system is able to know this so card can be used no issue.

Db validators are updated at least once a day.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2018 11:57AM

DivingDuck wrote: »

But I was talking about a walk in excess of twenty minutes in addition to my existing "not very far" walk of ten minutes. That's a half hour walk, purely because of the inability of the DB card system to accept payment via contactless. I could walk most of the way to town in that time, busses be damned. There's no lack of amenities in my area, just a lack of places to top up the Leap cards.

So there's no lack of amenities in your area just it's a twenty minute walk to the nearest shop.

IMO, 60% is very low for them to be pushing so hard to kill cash payments. When they provide a facility for 90%+ of customers to pay cashless on boarding, then it would be reasonable for them to attempt to kill off cash payments. Before that is simply trading on the fact that they have a monopoly and can do whatever they fancy. We wouldn't accept that from most retailers or service providers, so why should we accept it from Dublin Bus?

It's nothing to do with a monopoly it will be the exact same on Go-Ahead buses.

I never mentioned it being anywhere else. What I said was that it isn't here, and yet they are introducing measures (removing the refund option) which penalise cash users— this on top of the existing tariff penalty.

If they didn't penalise cash users there would be no incentive for people to use leap and most people would still use cash. No one claimed the change and it's not a legal requirement like some people think.

punisher5112 · 23-08-2018 12:02PM

I'm actually disappointed I will still have to arse about typing in ones over payment of 5 cent every time they do it.

Look get a leap card you get cheaper fares and even many free trip especially kids and students as their fare cap is much lower.

It brings me back to the original travel90 as it would be much cheaper then cash for most especially using xpresso services and yet they would continue to moan and give out every day.

Bray Head · 23-08-2018 12:29PM

This shouldn't have been done until there was an introduction of a time-based fare system with the need to tag on but not tag off, across the whole bus system. Implemented with Leap and ideally other cashless systems.

You could then have a cash fare for occasional users- maybe €3 or something like that for adults and €2 for children. This should be round - so that people aren't slowing down the system fiddling around for change. And punitive, to encourage people to use cashless payments.

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2018 12:37PM

Bray Head wrote: »

This shouldn't have been done until there was an introduction of a time-based fare system with the need to tag on but not tag off, across the whole bus system. Implemented with Leap and ideally other cashless systems.

what is a time based fare system?

Stephen15 · 23-08-2018 12:49PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what is a time based fare system?

A system where you can make unlimkted journies in a set period of time usually 90 mins

Dravokivich · 23-08-2018 01:12PM

Qrt wrote: »

Unfortunately, you'd have to "collect" it from the shop...

The only thing you collect for auto top up is to enable the service on your leap card. After that any time your credit goes under 10 Euro it'll pull a top up from the validator you were using. Doesn't matter which service either.

howiya · 23-08-2018 01:33PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Set up an auto-topup of your leap card and you'll never have to go near a shop again.

Just had a read about auto-topup there. Can't see many switching to it.

Minimum top up of €30

And if the top up fails due to insufficient funds in your bank account on a random day, your leap card which will possibly have up to €9.99 of travel credit plus your €5 deposit will be blocked by the NTA and be unusable.

People (including the NTA) have often compared it to having credit on your phone. Maybe they could develop a bill pay option

Stephen15 · 23-08-2018 01:35PM

howiya wrote: »

People (including the NTA) have often compared it to having credit on your phone. Maybe they could develop a bill pay option

Basically monthly/annual/taxsaver tickets

GM228 · 23-08-2018 01:39PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Other than the route planning anything else bus connects comments on is not really in their remit. They just added stuff about fares and technology as consultants. I don't believe they were really in a position to discuss them. That falls under other projects being led and planned by NTA.

Bus Connects isn't a they, it's no more than a project title, it is still the NTA.

Unless your talking about Jarrett Walker & Associates themselves any comments by "Bus Connects" is assumed to be by the NTA themselves and fares and technology is just another aspect of the overall project.

One would assume that any associates to the project whilst mainly dealing with route planning etc would be well versed (and also advise the NTA) in the overall scope of the project and associated technology/fares improvements.

howiya · 23-08-2018 01:42PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Basically monthly/annual/taxsaver tickets

Not available to all and not similar to a bill pay option at all...

After a month of phone calls the operator tots them up and bills you.

After a month of tolls on your tag, the operator tots them up and bills you.

A bill pay option for public transport would be a month of journeys, operator tots them up on your leap card and says that will €43 please and then subsequently dips into your bank account for the same.

Not paying €134 (€68 with saving) for journeys you don't make.

wench · 23-08-2018 01:47PM

howiya wrote: »

And if the top up fails due to insufficient funds in your bank account on a random day, your leap card which will possibly have up to €9.99 of travel credit plus your €5 deposit will be blocked by the NTA and be unusable.

They email you beforehand, telling you exactly what day it will come out.

howiya · 23-08-2018 01:51PM

wench wrote: »

They email you beforehand, telling you exactly what day it will come out.

Well and good but the day you hit the €9.99 on your leap card is random. You may not have the means or an opportunity to top up your bank account prior to the day it will be debited.

howiya · 23-08-2018 01:54PM

wench wrote: »

They email you beforehand, telling you exactly what day it will come out.

From the FAQ;

Will you notify me that you are about to debit my bank account?
We will display your current balance on the Validator screen as you Touch-On and Touch-Off. If you have received an Auto Top-Up, your updated balance will display. We will also endeavour to issue an email notification in advance of deducting the funds from your bank account

Sounds like the email doesn't happen for everyone.

Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

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