Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

devnull

Dublin Bus has confirmed that from 9th September they will no longer issue change receipts on their services:
https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Removal-of-the-refund-facility-on-board-bus-services/

We wish to advise customers that from 9 September, you will no longer be issued a ‘refund due’ receipt when you overpay for your journey with cash on board our buses. Instead, you will be issued with an ‘extra payment’ receipt that is non-redeemable.

What can I do now?

• Use a Leap Card – Leap Card is at least 20% cheaper than paying in cash and it’s more efficient
• Have the exact fare for your journey
• Redeem previously issued ‘refund due’ receipts from our Head Office, O’Connell Street

If you still overpay for your journey after 9 September, the extra change will go towards continuing to improve our services, and funding the Community Spirit Awards, an initiative that has helped almost 1,800 voluntary groups to date through unclaimed passenger change.

The removal of the ‘refund due’ facility is also consistent with the National Transport Authority’s welcome intention to move to cashless operations on all buses under the BusConnects programme. The National Transport Authority is responsible for all aspects of the regulation of fares and ticketing.

It's strongly expected that the same policy will apply on Go-Ahead.

dashcamdanny

punisher5112 wrote: »

Dublin man, they are planning on hybrid so no plug in needed but that may well be down the line much further into the future.


Shortly anyone looking for their change tickets on Dublin bus it will be no more.

Move to leap as cashless is been brought in after that.

No more change tickets!

I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

Qrt

dashcamdanny wrote: »

No more change tickets!

I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

Does anyone have a source for this?

Stephen15

dashcamdanny wrote: »

No more change tickets!

I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

I guess it's because the NTA want to icentivise people to get a Leap card before completely abandoning cash. I presume they are getting rid of the change tickets because people would be confused where to go to get change from Go-Ahead tickets as they wouldn't be able to get it from the DB offices.

Cashless would be even better but that would create even more anger and confusion than getting rid of change tickets if was done now.

BonnieSituation

Stephen15 wrote: »

I guess it's because the NTA want to icentivise people to get a Leap card before completely abandoning cash. I presume they are getting rid of the change tickets because people would be confused where to go to get change from Go-Ahead tickets as they wouldn't be able to get it from the DB offices.

Cashless would be even better but that would create even more anger and confusion than getting rid of change tickets if was done now.

Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

All farebox revenue is NTA.

markpb

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

All farebox revenue is NTA.

That's not true under the current Direct Award contracts.

Dravokivich

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

All farebox revenue is NTA.

Only for go ahead. But even then. If/when that's the case with Dublin bus. Why would they take it on? They'd be answering for the failures of a service they don't provide. Dell and Apple make laptops with Intel processors, but you won't complain to Apple about a dell driver issue.

KD345

Qrt wrote: »

Does anyone have a source for this?

There are posters on buses notifying passengers of this. I think it starts September 9th.

liger

dashcamdanny wrote: »

No more change tickets!

I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

Drivers won't get it in the neck because nobody will be expecting change tickets as there can't be an overpayment with Leap.

Cashless isn't scheduled for at least 2 more years. And just look at the paper social welfare passes, they were due to be cancelled and no longer accepted on public transportation due to the new PSC but they still haven't done it yet. And my guess would be 90% of the paper passes left are dodgy.

punisher5112

Here is a photo of notice.

No more change.....

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

punisher5112

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

It will be because they won't want to have those extra costs such as a head office which the public can arrive at.

Costs will be lower.

LuckyLloyd

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

Something something servicing the public good something something DB runs the company for itself something unions. :rolleyes:

Stephen15

Does anyone know if the change tickets have an expiry date as I still have about €3 worth of them at home which I have been meaning to claim for years but keep forgetting however some of them date back as far as 2006. If I can find them and haven't thrown them out.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the change tickets have an expiry date as I still have about €3 worth of them at home which I have been meaning to claim for years but keep forgetting however some of them date back as far as 2006. If I can find them and havent thrown them out.

No expiry but they may well bring it in when they no longer offer them.

GM228

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

All farebox revenue is NTA.

All direct award contracts are net costs contracts meaning the operator (IE, DB and BE) keeps all fare revenue.

All competitively tendered contracts are gross cost contracts meaning GA (and the BE Waterford contract) will see all fares revenue return to the NTA.

The LUAS contract is also a competitively tendered gross cost contract (though not a PSO contract) which sees all fares revenue return to TII.

vectorvictor

Strongly support this , it removes the messing and is about educating people to go cashless. Can only be a positive thing especially when some (albeit undisclosed percentage) goes to community spirit , they do some really good work with this

GM228

Roll on the "but I'm entitled to my change" brigade.

**Sorry to disappoint, but there's no such entitlement.

vectorvictor

GM228 wrote: »

Roll on the "but I'm entitled to my change" brigade.

**Sorry to disappoint, but there's no such entitlement.

Met with the response of "you are fully entitled to walk if you don't have to foresight to get a bus fare right"

punisher5112

I have to let people know that on occasion....


The door is right there if you are not happy ...

Usually of course after I've been given an ear full of abuse.

xper

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus has confirmed that from 9th September they will no longer issue change receipts on their services:
https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Removal-of-the-refund-facility-on-board-bus-services/

We wish to advise customers that from 9 September, you will no longer be issued a ‘refund due’ receipt when you overpay for your journey with cash on board our buses. Instead, you will be issued with an ‘extra payment’ receipt that is non-redeemable. ....

What's the point of the 'extra payment' receipt? Just seems like extra litter. Surely if some sort of acknowledgement is required, the amount tendered could be printed on the actual ticket as well as the price.

Maybe you could claim tax back on the extra payment receipts as a charitable donation?!

GM228 wrote: »

All direct award contracts are net costs contracts meaning the operator (IE, DB and BE) keeps all fare revenue.

All competitively tendered contracts are gross cost contracts meaning GA (and the BE Waterford contract) will see all fares revenue return to the NTA.

The LUAS contract is also a competitively tendered gross cost contract (though not a PSO contract) which sees all fares revenue return to TII.

Hmmm, does "all fare revenue" mean just the 'correct' fare or the fare plus the overpayments? Or does a gross cost contract operator get to keep the overpayments?

devnull

xper wrote: »

What's the point of the 'extra payment' receipt? Just seems like extra litter. Surely if some sort of acknowledgement is required, the amount tendered could be printed on the actual ticket as well as the price.

Maybe you could claim tax back on the extra payment receipts as a charitable donation?!

I would say that they need to have some record of the money that they have which is not used for payment of fares to prevent that someone in the system could pocket the difference between the fare and the money given to the company.

You also have to remember that the ticket machines are based on technology that is 20 years old and that to change the wording on the change tickets to say they are extra payment is relatively simple but to completely change an already creaking ticket system and adding more functionality is probably not feasible.

Hmmm, does "all fare revenue" mean just the 'correct' fare or the fare plus the overpayments? Or does a gross cost contract operator get to keep the overpayments?

The interesting bit in the release from Dublin Bus is the bit that says the extra payments will continue being used to help improve their services, since it's often been said on here and elsewhere that all the money was donated to the community fund, which now appears not to be the case.

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

I would say that they need to have some record of the money that they have which is not used for payment of fares to prevent that someone in the system could pocket the difference between the fare and the money given to the company.

You also have to remember that the ticket machines are based on technology that is 20 years old and that to change the wording on the change tickets to say they are extra payment is relatively simple but to completely change an already creaking ticket system and adding more functionality is probably not feasible.



The interesting bit in the release from Dublin Bus is the bit that says the extra payments will continue being used to help improve their services, since it's often been said on here and elsewhere that all the money was donated to the community fund, which now appears not to be the case.

All the money couldn't be as they must keep a certain amount for those that do collect the money off the ticket.

Many have been seen over the years collecting tickets off buses including letting themselves in to find one on the floor etc.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

All the money couldn't be as they must keep a certain amount for those that do collect the money off the ticket.

Yes - but I always believed that if money hadn't been claimed for some time that it was then given to the community fund - the fact that some is being used to pay to fund operations in Dublin Bus is something I've seen many people say doesn't happen but the post on the Dublin Bus website suggests that actually it does at least from September.

thomasj

I remember this from earlier in the year.

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-receipts-4000902-May2018/

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

Yes - but I always believed that if money hadn't been claimed for some time that it was then given to the community fund - the fact that some is being used to pay to fund operations in Dublin Bus is something I've seen many people say doesn't happen but the post on the Dublin Bus website suggests that actually it has and will continue to do so.

I can't say for definite if a yes or no but they have an open end on when one can claim so a certain amount of millions is kept which I am aware of.

Sure I was handed a ticket a few years ago with close to a tenner on it as they had paid on the airport bus with a large note.

They were going back home so no way of redeeming.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

I can't say for definite if a yes or no but they have an open end on when one can claim so a certain amount of millions is kept which I am aware of.

Sure I was handed a ticket a few years ago with close to a tenner on it as they had paid on the airport bus with a large note. They were going back home so no way of redeeming.

I just had another look at the wording of that article and it says 'the extra change will go towards continuing to improve our services' as well as the community fund which suggests that going forward it will be used to fund operations but doesn't really give a clear picture if they did in the past, but makes me curious a little.

Edited my post above a little to reflect it.

KD345

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

I can understand this happening. For example, if a passenger on the 75 wants to reclaim their change they go to O’Connell Street, but a passenger on the 175 would need to go to the NTA office as they are the holders of the revenue. It’s too messy and confusing for passengers and I’d say Dublin Bus are happy with this too.

It’s a shame the press release and posters on buses are not coming from the TFI brand and worded neutral to say all operators in Dublin will no longer issue change tickets. If we are to build an easy transition for passengers between operators then things like this need to be seen as one operation. Even phrasing it as Transport For Ireland and Dublin Bus would help. Perhaps we’ll see examples of this once Go Ahead launch.

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

It’s a shame the press release and posters on buses are not coming from the TFI brand and be neutral to say all operators in Dublin will no longer issue change tickets.

If we are to build an easy transition for passengers between operators then things like this need to be seen as one operation. Even phrasing it as Transport For Ireland and Dublin Bus would help. Perhaps we’ll see examples of this once Go Ahead launch.

I would prefer to see all on bus literature coming from the TFI Brand as soon as Go-Ahead start with neither operator using it's own branding system, however I cannot personally see Dublin Bus agreeing to simply allow everything to be branded TFI and without their own branding, bearing in mind how much recently they have stressed it's importance.

A half way house of having notices like this on the TFI brand and others on the DB brand also is not desirable because you'll have situations where each party is trying to make the good things on their brand and the bad things on the other persons, so best you avoid that whole potential issue altogether.

heroics

What about customers that don’t regularly get the bus or are getting a different route. I have no idea how much the fare is.

If you went to Tesco to buy your groceries and they didn’t give change people would stop shopping there. Not much choice with the bus.

Stephen15

heroics wrote: »

What about customers that don’t regularly get the bus or are getting a different route. I have no idea how much the fare is.

If you went to Tesco to buy your groceries and they didn’t give change people would stop shopping there. Not much choice with the bus.

If people are worried about not getting change they should get a Leap card. The buses will all going well be cashless soon enough and hopefully the option of contactless will also become an option.

heroics

Stephen15 wrote: »

If people are worried about not getting change they should get a Leap card. The buses will all going well be cashless soon enough and hopefully the option of contactless will also become an option.

In fairness if I could just use Apple/Android Pay/contactless bank card that would be fine. I only carry the bare minimum in the wallet. I got a leap card last year and have no idea where it is.

Stephen15

heroics wrote: »

In fairness if I could just use Apple/Android Pay/contactless bank card that would be fine. I only carry the bare minimum in the wallet. I got a leap card last year and have no idea where it is.

That's meant to be coming in as part of bus connects. There needs to be new validators which allow contactless and mobile payments.

G_R

heroics wrote: »

What about customers that don’t regularly get the bus or are getting a different route. I have no idea how much the fare is.

If you went to Tesco to buy your groceries and they didn’t give change people would stop shopping there. Not much choice with the bus.

It's so easy and cheap to get a leap card I really don't think that this is a valid argument tbh.

Some people just need a kick up the hole to switch.

rom

How about have bank cards work also like they do for the tube before going down this route?

heroics

G_R wrote: »

It's so easy and cheap to get a leap card I really don't think that this is a valid argument tbh.

Some people just need a kick up the hole to switch.

It’s just an extra thing to carry for the occasional use. Makes perfect sense if using public transport regularly. For example I use bus/dart Luas probably 3 or 4 times a year. For me a leap card is a pita

As above if they accepted contactless I wouldn’t have a problem.

vectorvictor

heroics wrote: »

It’s just an extra thing to carry for the occasional use. Makes perfect sense if using public transport regularly. For example I use bus/dart Luas probably 3 or 4 times a year. For me a leap card is a pita

As above if they accepted contactless I wouldn’t have a problem.

Yet they'll all have their Costa, Valueclub or Tesco Club card on them.

Leap could be made a bit easier I.e. key fob card or NFC mobile but its really not a challenge to have it

heroics

Just as a matter of interest does anyone have the stars on how many bus journeys were paid in cash as opposed to leap? Since leap is so brilliant I presume this is a tiny percentage.

Actually just did. A quick google all I could find was 70% of journeys in Dublin bus in 2017 were leap and there was 139million journeys. That still leaves a sizeable number of passengers that have not moved to leap. (Approx 39million journeys) based on those numbers.

G_R

heroics wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest does anyone have the stars on how many bus journeys were paid in cash as opposed to leap? Since leap is so brilliant I presume this is a tiny percentage.

Actually just did. A quick google all I could find was 70% of journeys in Dublin bus in 2017 were leap and there was 139million journeys. That still leaves a sizeable number of passengers that have not moved to leap. (Approx 39million journeys) based on those numbers.

Is that including free travel passes? If not, I'd image they count for a large majority of that 39m.

Anecdotally, i use the bus 4 times and a very small percentage use cash

heroics

vectorvictor wrote: »

Yet they'll all have their Costa, Valueclub or Tesco Club card on them.

Leap could be made a bit easier I.e. key fob card or NFC mobile but its really not a challenge to have it

I carry bank cards/driving licence/health ins and sons u6 med card that’s it. A lot of times I just carry the mobile and use Apple Pay or cash if i need anything.

heroics

G_R wrote: »

Is that including free travel passes? If not, I'd image they count for a large majority of that 39m.

Anecdotally, i use the bus 4 times and a very small percentage use cash

Not sure tbh was just a quick google maybe someone here has better figures.

vectorvictor

heroics wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest does anyone have the stars on how many bus journeys were paid in cash as opposed to leap? Since leap is so brilliant I presume this is a tiny percentage.

Actually just did. A quick google all I could find was 70% of journeys in Dublin bus in 2017 were leap and there was 139million journeys. That still leaves a sizeable number of passengers that have not moved to leap. (Approx 39million journeys) based on those numbers.

Regarding leap being "brilliant" , and ignoring your belligerence, which isn't necessary to make your point, I would say 70% is good up take from those who "get it" , the remainder will need to be forced (a bit like how baggage charges on airlines suddenly made people able to travel lighter).

This happens in every change management scenario , there are always those who are slow on the uptake or "don't like change" (pardon the pun)

heroics

Tbh I was just giving a different point of view. Most of the posts seemed to only be in favour of this.

MarkY91

Ah sure before I started using the leap card in the past 6 months, the drivers wouldn't give the change receipt without having to ask for it anyways.

Stephen15

If people don't have the wherewithal to use a Leap card and be able to hold on to it then I seriously doubt they'd be bothered keeping change vouchers to collect at DB HQ.

vectorvictor

heroics wrote: »

Tbh I was just giving a different point of view. Most of the posts seemed to only be in favour of this.

Hard not to be , it's pure logic.
As for being unable or willing to carry a leap card, anybody that precious will surely have the limo on speed dial

DivingDuck

vectorvictor wrote: »

Yet they'll all have their Costa, Valueclub or Tesco Club card on them.

Leap could be made a bit easier I.e. key fob card or NFC mobile but its really not a challenge to have it

The vast majority of the time, I have two credit cards and a debit card in my wallet, along with a twenty, and about a fiver in change. That's all.

Not everyone carries around a ton of useless loyalty cards, and certainly not all of the time.

As for Leap: I've had one for years, but never bothered using it because checking the balance required registration, and from home I had no means to add credit to it unless I walked five to ten minutes away from where I would go to get the bus to do so. Now have access to an NFC Android phone, it is considerably less useless to me, but there are undeniably a number of problems with the Leap system as a lot of people (basically all iPhone users) still can't do this.

It's ridiculous they're getting rid of the refund receipts now; they should have delayed this until their electronic system can support, at the very least, the use of contactless debit cards on boarding.

No other business would get away with this malarkey, but Dublin Bus do because of their captive market. It's not fair to their customers.

heroics

Stephen15 wrote: »

If people don't have the wherewithal to use a Leap card and be able to hold on to it then I seriously doubt they'd be bothered keeping change vouchers to collect at DB HQ.

Last time I had them I gave them to charity. If all of the money from now on went to charity and was transparent then that wouldn’t bother me either. I just think it’s premature doing this before introducing contactless payments

heroics

vectorvictor wrote: »

Hard not to be , it's pure logic.
As for being unable or willing to carry a leap card, anybody that precious will surely have the limo on speed dial

Logic would be not to introduce this until contactless was an option

vectorvictor

heroics wrote: »

Logic would be not to introduce this until contactless was an option

Or to avail of the min 20% saving by getting a leap card , or to have the correct change for your journey. Contactless would be great but it's irrelevant in this scenario.

If people want to use the bus get a leap card or bring the right fare. If they can't be bothered doing either then I highly doubt they'd be bothered going to O'Connell Street to get their 20cent back

Stephen15

Perhaps it would be a good idea to print on all cash tickets what the fare would be if it was paid if it was paid using a Leap card.

Paper tickets could have the following wording printed on them.

Adult Single Cash: €3.30

With a Leap card this fare would be: €2.60 saving you: €0.70
For more info on savings see Leapcard.ie