Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

Robert ninja

I never liked their card system because of the tracking and selling of your movement. They really don't want me using cash anymore...

ohnonotgmail

howiya wrote: »

From the FAQ;

Will you notify me that you are about to debit my bank account?
We will display your current balance on the Validator screen as you Touch-On and Touch-Off. If you have received an Auto Top-Up, your updated balance will display. We will also endeavour to issue an email notification in advance of deducting the funds from your bank account

Sounds like the email doesn't happen for everyone.

If you have a phone with NFC you can do a top up any time you want with that. they do give you a lot of ways to top up.

wench

howiya wrote: »

From the FAQ;

Will you notify me that you are about to debit my bank account?
We will display your current balance on the Validator screen as you Touch-On and Touch-Off. If you have received an Auto Top-Up, your updated balance will display. We will also endeavour to issue an email notification in advance of deducting the funds from your bank account

Sounds like the email doesn't happen for everyone.

Delivery of email can never be guaranteed, so that is covering themselves in case it goes awry.

I've been signed up since they started offering it, and have always been notified.

wench

howiya wrote: »

A bill pay option for public transport would be a month of journeys, operator tots them up on your leap card and says that will €43 please and then subsequently dips into your bank account for the same.

howiya wrote: »

Well and good but the day you hit the €9.99 on your leap card is random. You may not have the means or an opportunity to top up your bank account prior to the day it will be debited.

How would your bill pay option be any different, you still may not have the money, but now you've already used the service...

markpb

EdgeCase wrote: »

For casual users, an ability to pay using EMV - Visa, MasterCard, ApplePay, Google Pay etc would make a lot of sense. I'd assume they'd only do it if it wasn't going to cost them money though.

It will cost money, a lot of money! Anyone thinking this is a simple job is mistaken. Anyone thinking it could be done for millions is still mistaken. Rolling out Contactless EMV to London took several years and the involvement of Visa, Mastercard and most major UK banks. Even now that they've done it, it's not an off the shelf product that we can simply pick up and use in Dublin.

Ubbquittious

Feck the cashless society.

howiya

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If you have a phone with NFC you can do a top up any time you want with that. they do give you a lot of ways to top up.

Yes we are aware of that. I don't have such a phone.

I have a leap card and when it needs topping up the nearest shop is further along the bus route so its not an ordeal.

Many people however don't. Where I last lived I had to take a detour to a Luas stop to top up the card for a bus journey. Artane Castle, that was considered a big enough journey generator/focal point to publish a Bus Connects isochrone from and it doesn't have somewhere you can top up your leap card. Maybe the 3 shop will let you borrow an NFC phone.

The thread is about the change facility and I've no problem with it being removed. People are trying to sell the leap card as an alternative to cash but that's not what the thread is about. Because DB and GA are going to continue to accept cash.

It's simple. If somebody is attached to getting their change back, they still can. Buy a leap card every time they get a bus, contact NTA for the refund and bobs your uncle. Maybe expensive transactions like that will focus the minds of the operators on alternative methods of payment.

howiya

wench wrote: »

How would your bill pay option be any different, you still may not have the money, but now you've already used the service...

Billing dates are known

howiya

Robert ninja wrote: »

I never liked their card system because of the tracking and selling of your movement. They really don't want me using cash anymore...

You can still use cash. Just don't expect to get change.

Dravokivich

Robert ninja wrote: »

I never liked their card system because of the tracking and selling of your movement. They really don't want me using cash anymore...

Huh?

n!ghtmancometh

howiya wrote: »

Yes we are aware of that. I don't have such a phone.

I have a leap card and when it needs topping up the nearest shop is further along the bus route so its not an ordeal.

Many people however don't. Where I last lived I had to take a detour to a Luas stop to top up the card for a bus journey. Artane Castle, that was considered a big enough journey generator/focal point to publish a Bus Connects isochrone from and it doesn't have somewhere you can top up your leap card. Maybe the 3 shop will let you borrow an NFC phone.

The thread is about the change facility and I've no problem with it being removed. People are trying to sell the leap card as an alternative to cash but that's not what the thread is about. Because DB and GA are going to continue to accept cash.

It's simple. If somebody is attached to getting their change back, they still can. Buy a leap card every time they get a bus, contact NTA for the refund and bobs your uncle. Maybe expensive transactions like that will focus the minds of the operators on alternative methods of payment.

How many more methods of payment do you want? You can still use cash. You can use Leap app via NFC, Leap auto top up, Leap online top up, leap in a shop, leap at a Luas or Irish Rail TVM (since cross city launched this is even more convenient due to more TVM's in central areas of the city like Trinity, Dawson, O'Connell, Parnell etc) the only thing that it missing is contactless. Contactless will require the replacement of every bus ticket machine in the city as well as custom software, new it networks
and associated backend costs etc. It will come in time, but to complain about a lack of current, convenient options for payment in ridiculous. There are a whole boatload of issues with bus services in the city, but this is certainly no where near the top of the list.

howiya

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

How many more methods of payment do you want? You can still use cash. You can use Leap app via NFC, Leap auto top up, Leap online top up, leap in a shop, leap at a Luas or Irish Rail TVM (since cross city launched this is even more convenient due to more TVM's in central areas of the city like Trinity, Dawson, O'Connell, Parnell etc) the only thing that it missing is contactless. Contactless will require the replacement of every bus ticket machine in the city as well as custom software, new it networks
and associated backend costs etc. It will come in time, but to complain about a lack of current, convenient options for payment in ridiculous. There are a whole boatload of issues with bus services in the city, but this is certainly no where near the top of the list.

Putting commas between the different ways you can top up a leap card doesn't make them different payment methods.

There are only two payment methods. Cash or Leap card

ohnonotgmail

howiya wrote: »

Putting commas between the different ways you can top up a leap card doesn't make them different payment methods.

There are only two payment methods. Cash or Leap card

and leap card has numerous ways to add credit to the card.

Robert ninja

Dravokivich wrote: »

Huh?

Tracking what busses you take, where you're going and when. Dunno about anyone else but to me that's private information. All probably kept on an insecure server that's easy to hack along with them no doubt selling the data to anyone who wants it. Just typical modern corporate behaviour but one you can avoid most of the time if you really want to. If they go full cashless that won't be an option.

howiya

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and leap card has numerous ways to add credit to the card.

Ok. Let’s take the Artane Castle example I mentioned earlier. Another poster mentioned TVMs around Trinity and O’Connell Street in response.

If you are in Artane Castle and decide spur of the moment you want to take the 14 to town or beyond. Where do you 1) buy a leap card or 2) top up your leap card if you already have one?

JayRoc

Maybe someone else already said this, but would a flat fare of 2 / 3 euros not eliminate the vast majority of cases where people overpay?

ohnonotgmail

howiya wrote: »

Ok. Let’s take the Artane Castle example I mentioned earlier. Another poster mentioned TVMs around Trinity and O’Connell Street in response.

If you are in Artane Castle and decide spur of the moment you want to take the 14 to town or beyond. Where do you 1) buy a leap card or 2) top up your leap card if you already have one?

Are there no shops in Artane castle? Its a reasonably big shopping center.

howiya

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Are there no shops in Artane castle? Its a reasonably big shopping center.

There’s no leap top up agent

ohnonotgmail

howiya wrote: »

There’s no leap top up agent

the spar near the roundabout is an agent.

Nermal

howiya wrote: »

Ok. Let’s take the Artane Castle example I mentioned earlier. Another poster mentioned TVMs around Trinity and O’Connell Street in response.

If you are in Artane Castle and decide spur of the moment you want to take the 14 to town or beyond. Where do you 1) buy a leap card or 2) top up your leap card if you already have one?

If an occasional direct debit of €30 sends your bank account into the red, perhaps you should hold off on the 'spur of the moment' decisions.

punisher5112

Nothing surprises me at all these days.


Everyone wants a faster service and this is the start of getting it faster.

Dravokivich

Robert ninja wrote: »

Tracking what busses you take, where you're going and when. Dunno about anyone else but to me that's private information. All probably kept on an insecure server that's easy to hack along with them no doubt selling the data to anyone who wants it. Just typical modern corporate behaviour but one you can avoid most of the time if you really want to. If they go full cashless that won't be an option.

They don't know who you are among the 140 million journeys last year.

Robert ninja

Dravokivich wrote: »

They don't know who you are among the 140 million journeys last year.

With AI they most likely do. Corporations are known to have shadow a profile that's traded across different services. If AI can detect a programmer by name just from how many spaces they like between their code then I'm pretty sure they can ID a person based on their physical movement (especially when cross-linked with other data). For example if you used someone else's leap card for your usual journeys for a while then modern AI could easily tell that was you using it temporarily which it can then add to the shadow profile that these two leap card customers are sharing this one leap card and probably know each other. This kind of data is extremely profitable. Facebook and google's entire business model is this and they buy/sell it from other services. There's dozens of private data leaked every day by big companies who have abysmal security where they store this data, hence why I personally just stick to cash whenever possible.

So yeah I don't appreciate Dublin Bus making cash even less convenient than it already is just so they can cut costs and data mine their customers more. You have to pay them to the accurate cent now and tons of business don't even carry 1c coins anymore.

Stephen15

Robert ninja wrote: »

With AI they most likely do. Corporations are known to have shadow a profile that's traded across different services. If AI can detect a programmer by name just from how many spaces they like between their code then I'm pretty sure they can ID a person based on their physical movement (especially when cross-linked with other data). For example if you used someone else's leap card for your usual journeys for a while then modern AI could easily tell that was you using it temporarily which it can then add to the shadow profile that these two leap card customers are sharing this one leap card and probably know each other. This kind of data is extremely profitable. Facebook and google's entire business model is this and they buy/sell it from other services. There's dozens of private data leaked every day by big companies who have abysmal security where they store this data, hence why I personally just stick to cash whenever possible.

So yeah I don't appreciate Dublin Bus making cash even less convenient than it already is just so they can cut costs and data mine their customers more. You have to pay them to the accurate cent now and tons of business don't even carry 1c coins anymore.

And you seriously saying wayfarers have the capability to take all this info. I guess you could say the same about cash as it's processed on the same machine.

punisher5112

Robert ninja wrote: »

With AI they most likely do. Corporations are known to have shadow a profile that's traded across different services. If AI can detect a programmer by name just from how many spaces they like between their code then I'm pretty sure they can ID a person based on their physical movement (especially when cross-linked with other data). For example if you used someone else's leap card for your usual journeys for a while then modern AI could easily tell that was you using it temporarily which it can then add to the shadow profile that these two leap card customers are sharing this one leap card and probably know each other. This kind of data is extremely profitable. Facebook and google's entire business model is this and they buy/sell it from other services. There's dozens of private data leaked every day by big companies who have abysmal security where they store this data, hence why I personally just stick to cash whenever possible.

So yeah I don't appreciate Dublin Bus making cash even less convenient than it already is just so they can cut costs and data mine their customers more. You have to pay them to the accurate cent now and tons of business don't even carry 1c coins anymore.

Isn't it wonderful though if one has a ton of change db does not question it at all.

50 coin rule what rule they say.


I can't wait till I no longer have to have anything to do with cash or card etc.

Roll on technology and a much calmer and quicker bus service for us all.

devnull

Robert ninja wrote: »

So yeah I don't appreciate Dublin Bus making cash even less convenient than it already is just so they can cut costs and data mine their customers more. You have to pay them to the accurate cent now and tons of business don't even carry 1c coins anymore.

Hate to disappoint you but the Dublin Bus ticket machines are based on 20 year old technology and have such a low memory amount that it's not even possible for them to store much data at all, they are barely able to carry out out basic functionality, let alone extensively data mine their customers.

Dravokivich

Robert ninja wrote: »

With AI they most likely do. Corporations are known to have shadow a profile that's traded across different services. If AI can detect a programmer by name just from how many spaces they like between their code then I'm pretty sure they can ID a person based on their physical movement (especially when cross-linked with other data). For example if you used someone else's leap card for your usual journeys for a while then modern AI could easily tell that was you using it temporarily which it can then add to the shadow profile that these two leap card customers are sharing this one leap card and probably know each other. This kind of data is extremely profitable. Facebook and google's entire business model is this and they buy/sell it from other services. There's dozens of private data leaked every day by big companies who have abysmal security where they store this data, hence why I personally just stick to cash whenever possible.

So yeah I don't appreciate Dublin Bus making cash even less convenient than it already is just so they can cut costs and data mine their customers more. You have to pay them to the accurate cent now and tons of business don't even carry 1c coins anymore.

Eh. Shadow profiles? I think you are in the wrong CT forum...

howiya

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the spar near the roundabout is an agent.

I've never seen a spar near the roundabout at Artane Castle. Where is it exactly?

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

I've never seen a spar near the roundabout at Artane Castle. Where is it exactly?

Is the Maxol garage across the road from it not an outlet?

Robert ninja

devnull wrote: »

Hate to disappoint you but the Dublin Bus ticket machines are based on 20 year old technology and have such a low memory amount that it's not even possible for them to store much data at all

There's not much to store and I don't know exactly what process they use but I can't imagine that DB do no not know where and when their cards are used. All you need is a timestamp and # ID that relates back to one of their bus stops which they have a database for at HQ.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Eh. Shadow profiles? I think you are in the wrong CT forum...

I doubt DB have anything even close to what other companies do but it's data that is stored and sold, so them making moves to inconvenience cash users and further push their electronic card system is simply unfavourable to me as a DB customer. Saw the thread in latest posts.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I guess you could say the same about cash as it's processed on the same machine.

No because a €2.50 cash fare is a €2.50 cash fare. Where as leap card use is €2.50 fare by user #8813717