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Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

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  • 16-02-2018 2:59pm
    #1
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Dublin Bus has confirmed that from 9th September they will no longer issue change receipts on their services:
    https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Removal-of-the-refund-facility-on-board-bus-services/
    We wish to advise customers that from 9 September, you will no longer be issued a ‘refund due’ receipt when you overpay for your journey with cash on board our buses. Instead, you will be issued with an ‘extra payment’ receipt that is non-redeemable.

    What can I do now?

    • Use a Leap Card – Leap Card is at least 20% cheaper than paying in cash and it’s more efficient
    • Have the exact fare for your journey
    • Redeem previously issued ‘refund due’ receipts from our Head Office, O’Connell Street

    If you still overpay for your journey after 9 September, the extra change will go towards continuing to improve our services, and funding the Community Spirit Awards, an initiative that has helped almost 1,800 voluntary groups to date through unclaimed passenger change.

    The removal of the ‘refund due’ facility is also consistent with the National Transport Authority’s welcome intention to move to cashless operations on all buses under the BusConnects programme. The National Transport Authority is responsible for all aspects of the regulation of fares and ticketing.

    It's strongly expected that the same policy will apply on Go-Ahead.


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Comments

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    #2
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Dublin man, they are planning on hybrid so no plug in needed but that may well be down the line much further into the future.


    Shortly anyone looking for their change tickets on Dublin bus it will be no more.

    Move to leap as cashless is been brought in after that.

    No more change tickets!

    I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

    Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?


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    #3
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭Qrt


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    No more change tickets!

    I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

    Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

    Does anyone have a source for this?


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    #4
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    No more change tickets!

    I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

    Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

    I guess it's because the NTA want to icentivise people to get a Leap card before completely abandoning cash. I presume they are getting rid of the change tickets because people would be confused where to go to get change from Go-Ahead tickets as they wouldn't be able to get it from the DB offices.

    Cashless would be even better but that would create even more anger and confusion than getting rid of change tickets if was done now.


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    #5
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I guess it's because the NTA want to icentivise people to get a Leap card before completely abandoning cash. I presume they are getting rid of the change tickets because people would be confused where to go to get change from Go-Ahead tickets as they wouldn't be able to get it from the DB offices.

    Cashless would be even better but that would create even more anger and confusion than getting rid of change tickets if was done now.

    Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

    All farebox revenue is NTA.


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    #6
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,267 ✭✭✭markpb


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

    All farebox revenue is NTA.

    That's not true under the current Direct Award contracts.


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    #7
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

    All farebox revenue is NTA.

    Only for go ahead. But even then. If/when that's the case with Dublin bus. Why would they take it on? They'd be answering for the failures of a service they don't provide. Dell and Apple make laptops with Intel processors, but you won't complain to Apple about a dell driver issue.


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    #8
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Qrt wrote: »
    Does anyone have a source for this?

    There are posters on buses notifying passengers of this. I think it starts September 9th.


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    #9
    liger
    Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭liger


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    No more change tickets!

    I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

    Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

    Drivers won't get it in the neck because nobody will be expecting change tickets as there can't be an overpayment with Leap.

    Cashless isn't scheduled for at least 2 more years. And just look at the paper social welfare passes, they were due to be cancelled and no longer accepted on public transportation due to the new PSC but they still haven't done it yet. And my guess would be 90% of the paper passes left are dodgy.


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    #10
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Here is a photo of notice.

    No more change.....


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    #11
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....


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    #12
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

    It will be because they won't want to have those extra costs such as a head office which the public can arrive at.

    Costs will be lower.


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    #13
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,237 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

    Something something servicing the public good something something DB runs the company for itself something unions. :rolleyes:


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    #14
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Does anyone know if the change tickets have an expiry date as I still have about €3 worth of them at home which I have been meaning to claim for years but keep forgetting however some of them date back as far as 2006. If I can find them and haven't thrown them out.


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    #15
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Does anyone know if the change tickets have an expiry date as I still have about €3 worth of them at home which I have been meaning to claim for years but keep forgetting however some of them date back as far as 2006. If I can find them and havent thrown them out.

    No expiry but they may well bring it in when they no longer offer them.


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    #16
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Why wouldn't they get it from DB?

    All farebox revenue is NTA.

    All direct award contracts are net costs contracts meaning the operator (IE, DB and BE) keeps all fare revenue.

    All competitively tendered contracts are gross cost contracts meaning GA (and the BE Waterford contract) will see all fares revenue return to the NTA.

    The LUAS contract is also a competitively tendered gross cost contract (though not a PSO contract) which sees all fares revenue return to TII.


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    #17
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    Strongly support this , it removes the messing and is about educating people to go cashless. Can only be a positive thing especially when some (albeit undisclosed percentage) goes to community spirit , they do some really good work with this


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    #18
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Roll on the "but I'm entitled to my change" brigade.

    **Sorry to disappoint, but there's no such entitlement.


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    #19
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    GM228 wrote: »
    Roll on the "but I'm entitled to my change" brigade.

    **Sorry to disappoint, but there's no such entitlement.

    Met with the response of "you are fully entitled to walk if you don't have to foresight to get a bus fare right"


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    #20
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I have to let people know that on occasion....


    The door is right there if you are not happy ...

    Usually of course after I've been given an ear full of abuse.


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    #21
    xper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭xper


    devnull wrote: »
    Dublin Bus has confirmed that from 9th September they will no longer issue change receipts on their services:
    https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Removal-of-the-refund-facility-on-board-bus-services/
    We wish to advise customers that from 9 September, you will no longer be issued a ‘refund due’ receipt when you overpay for your journey with cash on board our buses. Instead, you will be issued with an ‘extra payment’ receipt that is non-redeemable. ....

    What's the point of the 'extra payment' receipt? Just seems like extra litter. Surely if some sort of acknowledgement is required, the amount tendered could be printed on the actual ticket as well as the price.

    Maybe you could claim tax back on the extra payment receipts as a charitable donation?!
    GM228 wrote: »
    All direct award contracts are net costs contracts meaning the operator (IE, DB and BE) keeps all fare revenue.

    All competitively tendered contracts are gross cost contracts meaning GA (and the BE Waterford contract) will see all fares revenue return to the NTA.

    The LUAS contract is also a competitively tendered gross cost contract (though not a PSO contract) which sees all fares revenue return to TII.
    Hmmm, does "all fare revenue" mean just the 'correct' fare or the fare plus the overpayments? Or does a gross cost contract operator get to keep the overpayments?


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    #22
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    xper wrote: »
    What's the point of the 'extra payment' receipt? Just seems like extra litter. Surely if some sort of acknowledgement is required, the amount tendered could be printed on the actual ticket as well as the price.

    Maybe you could claim tax back on the extra payment receipts as a charitable donation?!

    I would say that they need to have some record of the money that they have which is not used for payment of fares to prevent that someone in the system could pocket the difference between the fare and the money given to the company.

    You also have to remember that the ticket machines are based on technology that is 20 years old and that to change the wording on the change tickets to say they are extra payment is relatively simple but to completely change an already creaking ticket system and adding more functionality is probably not feasible.
    Hmmm, does "all fare revenue" mean just the 'correct' fare or the fare plus the overpayments? Or does a gross cost contract operator get to keep the overpayments?

    The interesting bit in the release from Dublin Bus is the bit that says the extra payments will continue being used to help improve their services, since it's often been said on here and elsewhere that all the money was donated to the community fund, which now appears not to be the case.


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    #23
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    devnull wrote: »
    I would say that they need to have some record of the money that they have which is not used for payment of fares to prevent that someone in the system could pocket the difference between the fare and the money given to the company.

    You also have to remember that the ticket machines are based on technology that is 20 years old and that to change the wording on the change tickets to say they are extra payment is relatively simple but to completely change an already creaking ticket system and adding more functionality is probably not feasible.



    The interesting bit in the release from Dublin Bus is the bit that says the extra payments will continue being used to help improve their services, since it's often been said on here and elsewhere that all the money was donated to the community fund, which now appears not to be the case.

    All the money couldn't be as they must keep a certain amount for those that do collect the money off the ticket.

    Many have been seen over the years collecting tickets off buses including letting themselves in to find one on the floor etc.


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    #24
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    All the money couldn't be as they must keep a certain amount for those that do collect the money off the ticket.

    Yes - but I always believed that if money hadn't been claimed for some time that it was then given to the community fund - the fact that some is being used to pay to fund operations in Dublin Bus is something I've seen many people say doesn't happen but the post on the Dublin Bus website suggests that actually it does at least from September.


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    #25
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,793 ✭✭✭thomasj


    I remember this from earlier in the year.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-receipts-4000902-May2018/


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    #26
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    devnull wrote: »
    Yes - but I always believed that if money hadn't been claimed for some time that it was then given to the community fund - the fact that some is being used to pay to fund operations in Dublin Bus is something I've seen many people say doesn't happen but the post on the Dublin Bus website suggests that actually it has and will continue to do so.

    I can't say for definite if a yes or no but they have an open end on when one can claim so a certain amount of millions is kept which I am aware of.

    Sure I was handed a ticket a few years ago with close to a tenner on it as they had paid on the airport bus with a large note.

    They were going back home so no way of redeeming.


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    #27
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I can't say for definite if a yes or no but they have an open end on when one can claim so a certain amount of millions is kept which I am aware of.

    Sure I was handed a ticket a few years ago with close to a tenner on it as they had paid on the airport bus with a large note. They were going back home so no way of redeeming.

    I just had another look at the wording of that article and it says 'the extra change will go towards continuing to improve our services' as well as the community fund which suggests that going forward it will be used to fund operations but doesn't really give a clear picture if they did in the past, but makes me curious a little.

    Edited my post above a little to reflect it.


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    #28
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

    I can understand this happening. For example, if a passenger on the 75 wants to reclaim their change they go to O’Connell Street, but a passenger on the 175 would need to go to the NTA office as they are the holders of the revenue. It’s too messy and confusing for passengers and I’d say Dublin Bus are happy with this too.

    It’s a shame the press release and posters on buses are not coming from the TFI brand and worded neutral to say all operators in Dublin will no longer issue change tickets. If we are to build an easy transition for passengers between operators then things like this need to be seen as one operation. Even phrasing it as Transport For Ireland and Dublin Bus would help. Perhaps we’ll see examples of this once Go Ahead launch.


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    #29
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    KD345 wrote: »
    It’s a shame the press release and posters on buses are not coming from the TFI brand and be neutral to say all operators in Dublin will no longer issue change tickets.

    If we are to build an easy transition for passengers between operators then things like this need to be seen as one operation. Even phrasing it as Transport For Ireland and Dublin Bus would help. Perhaps we’ll see examples of this once Go Ahead launch.

    I would prefer to see all on bus literature coming from the TFI Brand as soon as Go-Ahead start with neither operator using it's own branding system, however I cannot personally see Dublin Bus agreeing to simply allow everything to be branded TFI and without their own branding, bearing in mind how much recently they have stressed it's importance.

    A half way house of having notices like this on the TFI brand and others on the DB brand also is not desirable because you'll have situations where each party is trying to make the good things on their brand and the bad things on the other persons, so best you avoid that whole potential issue altogether.


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    #30
    heroics
    Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭heroics


    What about customers that don’t regularly get the bus or are getting a different route. I have no idea how much the fare is.

    If you went to Tesco to buy your groceries and they didn’t give change people would stop shopping there. Not much choice with the bus.


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    #31
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    heroics wrote: »
    What about customers that don’t regularly get the bus or are getting a different route. I have no idea how much the fare is.

    If you went to Tesco to buy your groceries and they didn’t give change people would stop shopping there. Not much choice with the bus.

    If people are worried about not getting change they should get a Leap card. The buses will all going well be cashless soon enough and hopefully the option of contactless will also become an option.


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