Saorview Connect

PabloAndRoy · 18-07-2018 02:31PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That appears to imply there might be something shady around creating their own EPG, which I do not understand.
Once they did not copy a protected (by copyright) database or copy the method of display of the data then there would be no cause for concern.

My understanding is that the encoded Freesat EPG coming directly off Astra 2 is indeed copyrighted against commercial reuse.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 18-07-2018 02:32PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That appears to imply there might be something shady around creating their own EPG, which I do not understand.
Once they did not copy a protected (by copyright) database or copy the method of display of the data then there would be no cause for concern.

I don't think any of us here are Intellectual Property lawyers so there may be issues with providing an EPG for channels that may not wish for that to happen. Perhaps the prospect of providing a satellite EPG was explored and no agreement could be reached.

The fact that software exists for the hobbyist to achieve same is somewhat irrelevant as an entity like RTE is obviously a bigger legal target than a niche group of disparate individuals.

PabloAndRoy · 18-07-2018 02:36PM

Lincoln Important Syllable wrote: »

I don't think any of us here are Intellectual Property lawyers so there may be issues with providing an EPG for channels that may not wish for that to happen. Perhaps the prospect of providing a satellite EPG was explored and no agreement could be reached.

The fact that software exists for the hobbyist to achieve same is somewhat irrelevant as an entity like RTE is obviously a bigger legal target than a niche group of disparate individuals.

I agree.

Hobbyists reusing the EPG is non-commercial. Making that EPG available in a branded box is definitely a commercial activity and would (AFAIK) constitute a copyright infringement.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 02:55PM

You are confusing 'the EPG' with the data any EPG will display.

Bringing in hobbyists is only confusing matters.

The 'data' is not covered by Freesat or Sky copyright.
Their databases might well be covered (if they comply with requirements) and the display of the data is surely covered by copyright, but the actual data is not, in so far as I have been able to ascertain.

If anyone has anything to show otherwise then please post ...... because after a few years searching I can find nothing contradictory, and those I have communicated with about this have had similar results.

peking97 · 18-07-2018 02:59PM

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

I agree.

Hobbyists reusing the EPG is non-commercial. Making that EPG available in a branded box is definitely a commercial activity and would (AFAIK) constitute a copyright infringement.

Unless of course they agree a fee for commercial use so why not do precisely that and keep everything above board? It would make the Saorview Connect box so much more attractive for Irish viewers even though it would add to the price!

The Real B-man · 18-07-2018 03:10PM

Apologises for the confusion i should have said the same channel menu instead of having to press a button to switch between Saorview & FTA

tsue921i8wljb3 · 18-07-2018 03:11PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You are confusing 'the EPG' with the data any EPG will display.

Bringing in hobbyists is only confusing matters.

The 'data' is not covered by Freesat or Sky copyright.
Their databases might well be covered (if they comply with requirements) and the display of the data is surely covered by copyright, but the actual data is not, in so far as I have been able to ascertain.

If anyone has anything to show otherwise then please post ...... because after a few years searching I can find nothing contradictory, and those I have communicated with about this have had similar results.

Bringing hobbyists into it is relevant as the activity is so niche that it is unlikely to have ever come before the courts before. I am of the opinion that the programme data would be the intellectual property of each individual channel so one would need broad agreement to display a structured array of such data. That's just my opinion though.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 03:13PM

peking97 wrote: »

Unless of course they agree a fee for commercial use so why not do precisely that and keep everything above board? It would make the Saorview Connect box so much more attractive for Irish viewers even though it would add to the price!

or alternatively create their own EPG .... which is probably not possible due to Freesat's involvement.

Yes, they absolutely need a full EPG on that box, even if it does cost a little extra.

PabloAndRoy · 18-07-2018 03:28PM

peking97 wrote: »

Unless of course they agree a fee for commercial use so why not do precisely that and keep everything above board? It would make the Saorview Connect box so much more attractive for Irish viewers even though it would add to the price!

I think you will find (IANAL) that Freesat has a remit via its licence to serve UK customers with its EPG. Commercial contracts to provide this beyond the UK would be outside of their remit and would get them in hot water with OFCOM. Freesat are licensed for their EPG by OFCOM whose jurisdiction is the UK.

Its not going to happen because it cannot happen legally.

PabloAndRoy · 18-07-2018 03:37PM

The Real B-man wrote: »

Apologises for the confusion i should have said the same channel menu instead of having to press a button to switch between Saorview & FTA

Look what you have started?

"Lucky you didn't say anything about the dirty knife."

Ten Pin · 18-07-2018 03:47PM

Apologises for the confusion i should have said the same channel menu instead of having to press a button to switch between Saorview & FTA

Nope, doesn't have that either, apparently it takes 30 seconds to switch between the two.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 03:48PM

Lincoln Important Syllable wrote: »

Bringing hobbyists into it is relevant as the activity is so niche that it is unlikely to have ever come before the courts before.

No, hobbyist is not relevant as the connect box is not a hobbyist device, but a commercial one.

There are lots of examples out there of the data being used without hindrance. Essentially the data is in the public domain and thus free of copyright restrictions.

I am of the opinion that the programme data would be the intellectual property of each individual channel so one would need broad agreement to display a structured array of such data. That's just my opinion though.

One would need agreement if, Like Sky etc., one were to charge each channel to be included on their EPG.

Can you point to something that causes you to hold that opinion or would support it?
I really would like to read it. Thanks.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 03:52PM

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

I think you will find (IANAL) that Freesat has a remit via its licence to serve UK customers with its EPG. Commercial contracts to provide this beyond the UK would be outside of their remit and would get them in hot water with OFCOM. Freesat are licensed for their EPG by OFCOM whose jurisdiction is the UK.

Its not going to happen because it cannot happen legally.

OK, so the Freesat EPG is out?

Did not prevent a different EPG being created for the Connect box.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 18-07-2018 04:07PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

No, hobbyist is not relevant as the connect box is not a hobbyist device, but a commercial one.

There are lots of examples out there of the data being used without hindrance. Essentially the data is in the public domain and thus free of copyright restrictions.

One would need agreement if, Like Sky etc., one were to charge each channel to be included on their EPG.

Can you point to something that causes you to hold that opinion or would support it?
I really would like to read it. Thanks.

It's just my opinion, it could well be wrong.

As to building their own EPG. Who provides the programme data for Saorview? Red Bee Media, who are also heavily involved with similar activities for many UK broadcasters. Should RTE set up their own in house EPG creating unit to provide listings for UK channels?

You seem to be a fervent believer in open source software and solutions but it was never going to happen for something like this.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 04:34PM

Lincoln Important Syllable wrote: »

It's just my opinion, it could well be wrong.

I really would like to know what influenced your opinion.

As to building their own EPG. Who provides the programme data for Saorview? Red Bee Media, who are also heavily involved with similar activities for many UK broadcasters. Should RTE set up their own in house EPG creating unit to provide listings for UK channels?

You seem to be a fervent believer in open source software and solutions but it was never going to happen for something like this.

I strongly believe in not apportioning copyright to anything that does not warrant it ..... as in there is no known legal base for it.

The EPG methods used (display etc) can be copyrighted.
Some databases of the data in the EPG can be copyrighted, provided those databases comply with some specific requirements specific to databases.
Data not in the public domain can be copyrighted, provided it can be shown to be compliant with requirements.

Assuming something is under copyright without supporting evidence is not something I do or support.
When something is properly copyrighted then that copyright should be respected ..... and it should be obvious to all.

Sam Russell · 18-07-2018 04:45PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes.

Saorview are not going to put any satellite EPG onto the Connect box. The software is not open and they will not be authorising any add-ons, which includes EPG. 2RN have a very narrow view on their obligations regarding IP rights.

The tie-up with Freesat is for the software, not the Freesat satellite system.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That appears to imply there might be something shady around creating their own EPG, which I do not understand.
Once they did not copy a protected (by copyright) database or copy the method of display of the data then there would be no cause for concern.

When I say 2RN have a narrow view on IP rights, I mean they would not want to be involved in any way with even the hint of an infringement. As a result they will block any attempt to provide EPG information from satellite channels.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 18-07-2018 04:49PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I really would like to know what influenced your opinion.

I strongly believe in not apportioning copyright to anything that does not warrant it ..... as in there is no known legal base for it.

The EPG methods used (display etc) can be copyrighted.
Some databases of the data in the EPG can be copyrighted, provided those databases comply with some specific requirements specific to databases.
Data not in the public domain can be copyrighted, provided it can be shown to be compliant with requirements.

Assuming something is under copyright without supporting evidence is not something I do or support.
When something is properly copyrighted then that copyright should be respected ..... and it should be obvious to all.

My opinion is based on the fact that they launched an inferior product to market knowing full well that Sky and Virgin boxes have seven day data for the UK channels they carry. They must have realised it would be an issue for people.

Given that Saorview have commercial relations with both Freesat and Red Bee, who provide EPG data for UK channels, they still launched a product with no seven day satellite EPG. I can only think of three reasons why:

1) Incompetence - Saorview never saw a need for the full satellite guide. I think this is unlikely myself.

2) Maliciousness - RTE did not want to give equal footing to UK channels for fear of losing market share. Plausible.

3) Legal Issues - Saorview were prevented from delivering the full guide on foot of legal advice.

I don't know which of the three is fact.

Sam Russell · 18-07-2018 06:53PM

Lincoln Important Syllable wrote: »

My opinion is based on the fact that they launched an inferior product to market knowing full well that Sky and Virgin boxes have seven day data for the UK channels they carry. They must have realised it would be an issue for people.

Given that Saorview have commercial relations with both Freesat and Red Bee, who provide EPG data for UK channels, they still launched a product with no seven day satellite EPG. I can only think of three reasons why:

1) Incompetence - Saorview never saw a need for the full satellite guide. I think this is unlikely myself.

2) Maliciousness - RTE did not want to give equal footing to UK channels for fear of losing market share. Plausible.

3) Legal Issues - Saorview were prevented from delivering the full guide on foot of legal advice.

I don't know which of the three is fact.

The third one.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 06:58PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The third one.

Can you expand on what legal issues surround the data?

Sam Russell · 18-07-2018 07:06PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Can you expand on what legal issues surround the data?

RTE and therefore 2RN take a very narrow and strict view of the legal interpretation of their responsibilities as the National Broadcaster, and IP rights is centre to this.

Just as they have to go to tender for everything, so they have to comply to everything that can be challenged.

lsjmhar · 18-07-2018 07:15PM

The government and their various bodies sign contracts with companies like any private business. If RTE (as a government agency) breaks this contract, other companies can sue them (e.g. Freesat). A simple example is that every printer used by a government department must use official ink cartridges from the printer company. If they use a refilled cartridge, the printer company can sue. This is simple.

Every time people give about government agencies they forget about this. A simple breach could cost a department millions as the company (e.g. Freesat) could claim millions are lost in advertising revenue. People would probably complain if they were sued like this also and claim incompetence. State agencies can never win!!!!!

Tigerandahalf · 18-07-2018 07:17PM

Saorview had a remit to deliver a connected set top box. Delivering a satellite function alongside it is not part of it. Saorview will lose money on bringing these boxes to the market, more than likely, but they had to fulfill their remit.

RTE doesn't really care how people consume its channels/on demand as long as they can maximise viewership. Its channels get priority listing on all carriers like Sky, Virgin etc and carry RTE's ads which is all that matters to rte.

The distributor of the box decided to add the satellite function and the cost of any added epg functionality would have had to be borne by the distributor. So that's why we have ended up with what we have.

Saying the above the distributor could improve the product by having 1 button toggle switching between saorview and satellite and vice versa.

Overall the box will find it hard to compete with freesat's boxes which offer 7 day epg and series link.

lsjmhar · 18-07-2018 07:25PM

Tigerandahalf wrote:

Overall the box will find it hard to compete with freesat's boxes which offer 7 day epg and series link.

That is only if a person prioritises uk channels. Some people only want a basic saorview package so the addition of on-demand/spotlight with further saorview series link supports those. We will be able to record freesat with some more effort. TBH i haven't had sky in 7 years so I see this box as a big impovement on previous saorview offerings. Horses for courses I suppose!

Sam Russell · 18-07-2018 07:26PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Saorview had a remit to deliver a connected set top box. Delivering a satellite function alongside it is not part of it. Saorview will lose money on bringing these boxes to the market, more than likely, but they had to fulfill their remit.

RTE doesn't really care how people consume its channels/on demand as long as they can maximise viewership. Its channels get priority listing on all carriers like Sky, Virgin etc and carry RTE's ads which is all that matters to rte.

The distributor of the box decided to add the satellite function and the cost of any added epg functionality would have had to be borne by the distributor. So that's why we have ended up with what we have.

Saying the above the distributor could improve the product by having 1 button toggle switching between saorview and satellite and vice versa.

Overall the box will find it hard to compete with freesat's boxes which offer 7 day epg and series link.

Freesat exist to bring UK TV to the UK population that cannot receive Feeview. They cannot be seen to bring it to non-UK-licence payers.

Capt'n Midnight · 18-07-2018 07:38PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You refer to The EPG!
You need to clarify what you really mean.

Yes Sky has an EPG which is under their copyright.
Freesat has an EPG which is equally owned by them.

I have an EPG here which is not subject to either of those, so for me 'the EPG' is what I have here.

If the Connect box was not tied to Freesat then it could have an EPG of its own, but having tied it to Freesat it is shameful that it does not use the Freesat EPG.
Maybe that will change when the update arrives which is supposed to properly enable the satellite functions of the box.

Saorview / Saorsat also have an EPG , but unlike SKY or Freesat it's Free to Air so you get the full week ahead unless you use a Freesat box or out of contract SKY box.

Freesat branded boxes ignore Free To Air EPG's and only show you Now and Next on Saorsat/Foreigh FTA channels. Out of contract SKY boxes are worse.

So if you want a combined UK / Irish EPG you have to pay for the privilege via TV subscription OR use aftermarket software setup on compatible hardware.

IMHO a Freesat box gives you the best free EPG. It just works. No faffing about with setup, no padding needed on recordings.

Saorview Connect is not a substitute for Freesat. It's more of a top-up.

lsjmhar · 18-07-2018 07:45PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

IMHO a Freesat box gives you the best free EPG. It just works. No faffing about with setup, no padding needed on recordings.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Saorview Connect is not a substitute for Freesat. It's more of a top-up.

Saorview will have the same software for Irish channels.

This whole discussion is like giving out about continentals driving on the other side of the road. U can argue ur ideas all u like but they're bot changing. Lol

Tigerandahalf · 18-07-2018 07:55PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

IMHO a Freesat box gives you the best free EPG. It just works. No faffing about with setup, no padding needed on recordings.

Saorview Connect is not a substitute for Freesat. It's more of a top-up.

I fully agree. It is not a bad solution if you have a freesat box and a saorview connect box.

I actually like having the 2 systems running together as I can have channels on both and just quickly flick the hdmi source. With 2 tuners in both boxes it gives you great recording functions. All channel frequency changes will update themselves.

The 1 remote controls both boxes which is very handy. In order not to change channel on the other box I enter 1 on the remote for rte1, 2 for rte 2, etc. This doesn't change the channel on the freesat box. To change channel on the freesat box I enter 102 (or other channel number) for bbc2 and this won't affect the channel on the saorview box.

Another thing is when I press the On Demand button this will only bring up the on demand content on the saorview box. It doesn't bring up the freesat on demand as a different button combination is needed - thus you are not wasting data or streaming programmes accidentally.

If a saorview only connect box comes out I will probably move my current box to the bedroom as it would fulfill my viewing needs perfectly.

Johnboy1951 · 18-07-2018 08:20PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Can you expand on what legal issues surround the data?

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE and therefore 2RN take a very narrow and strict view of the legal interpretation of their responsibilities as the National Broadcaster, and IP rights is centre to this.

Just as they have to go to tender for everything, so they have to comply to everything that can be challenged.

Of course they will be very careful ..... but what I asked was what legal issues surround the data for the EPG?
If you could address that I would appreciate it, thanks.

Sam Russell · 18-07-2018 09:16PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Of course they will be very careful ..... but what I asked was what legal issues surround the data for the EPG?
If you could address that I would appreciate it, thanks.

When I asked, that was the answer. It came across as a policy, rather than a legal opinion.

lsjmhar · 18-07-2018 10:22PM

Johnboy1951 wrote:

Of course they will be very careful ..... but what I asked was what legal issues surround the data for the EPG? If you could address that I would appreciate it, thanks.

It would be part of a service level agreement between RTE and UK providers - to use freesat software, no use of uk epg. Simple. Phone up RTE and ask them.

Saorview Connect

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