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Brexit discussion thread IV

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The EU would be doing a huge favour for the Tories by simply stating the limited options available.
    At what point in the negotiations did the EU do anything other than that ?


    00cbfd695ec0f3180186644cc1929034.gif

    Maybe the UK has been studying the wrong diagaram.


    It's the UK that's been meeting behind closed doors and promising white papers and U-turns. The EU position has been up on the comission web site for ages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    This is great news and hopefully will see the prospect of a hard brexit get back on track.

    The EU will never change and they are not evening offering too. Time to get the hell out of this commie club.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Dr Liam Fox has been the most ineffectual person in such a vital cabinet position in Britain in my memory. He likely will go but it will be merely symbolic in terms of effect.

    Ive said on here before that a relative of mine is a constituent of the PMs and knows Philip May pretty well. From my chats with him ive always known Theresa is a trojan horse of Remain sensibilities and that everything she has done up till now has been to string the Brexiteers along this moment to bounce them into a soft brexit strategy, by leaving it late. Theresa May is no mug, she must have done the maths on the inevitable leadership contest and feel even if 70-80 MPs go full rebel, that she has enough pragmatists and modernists in the remaining 230 or so to see her through.

    BTW, such is her own pragmatism, I can see May getting the numbers from across the benches to enact a soft brexit and lay the issue to rest, even at the risk of a Labour takeover after the next election. Protecting short-sighted Brits from themselves will be more important to her than her own future or even the Tory's.

    Next few days will be fun though, stock up on popcorn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Dr Liam Fox has been the most ineffectual person in such a vital cabinet position in Britain in my memory. He likely will go but it will be merely symbolic in terms of effect.

    Ive said on here before that a relative of mine is a constituent of the PMs and knows Philip May pretty well. From my chats with him ive always known Theresa is a trojan horse of Remain sensibilities and that everything she has done up till now has been to string the Brexiteers along this moment to bounce them into a soft brexit strategy, by leaving it late. Theresa May is no mug, she must have done the maths on the inevitable leadership contest and feel even if 70-80 MPs go full rebel, that she has enough pragmatists and modernists in the remaining 230 or so to see her through.

    BTW, such is her own pragmatism, I can see May getting the numbers from across the benches to enact a soft brexit and lay the issue to rest, even at the risk of a Labour takeover after the next election. Protecting short-sighted Brits from themselves will be more important to her than her own future or even the Tory's.

    Next few days will be fun though, stock up on popcorn.


    If the UK do not follow through with a hard brexit then democracy is dead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    This brexit mess is like sideshow bob and the rake scene, and that's saying something.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    If the UK do not follow through with a hard brexit then democracy is dead.

    How can you honestly say people knew they were voting for a hard Brexit?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    How can you honestly say people knew they were voting for a hard Brexit?

    taking back control is just that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    How can you honestly say people knew they were voting for a hard Brexit?

    He can't. Nobody knew what they were voting 'Leave' for because there was no Brexit plan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy



    That was fairly soft and sweet. He didn't hold back to be fair to him.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Suella Braverman gone too.

    Source ? I've only seen David Davis and Baker confirmed as having jumped ship.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,439 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I would ask who's going to head up negotiations now that Davis us out, but then I think an empty chair would be as effective, for all the progress they've made.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    briany wrote: »
    I would ask who's going to head up negotiations now that Davis us out, but then I think an empty chair would be as effective, for all the progress they've made.

    i'm going to use a Simpson reference here again but an inanimate carbon rod would be better than the British Government.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1016112436389273605

    Theresa May has officially responded to David Davis. Two words lads Joke and Shop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    Just a query on the exit bill, the UK will pay for existing commitments, but will they receive monies for assets they hold in the EU, I seem to remember they will offset their liability by about 20b of assets, anyone got a link to info on this please ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If the UK do not follow through with a hard brexit then democracy is dead.

    I didnt see "hard" leave on the ballot paper, did you?

    Having a referendum on a nebulous issue was quite stupidest thing ive ever seen. However, it is in the nature of democracy for things to be fluid and now that reality is dawning, another vote on the final eventuality would be a healthy stretch of the democratic muscle, not the death of it as you opine.

    Ive said since the day of the Ref result that Brexit would never happen and each day ive been more convinced of that view. Chequers on Friday and this nonsense tonight merely cements that conviction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I didnt see "hard" leave on the ballot paper, did you?

    Having a referendum on a nebulous issue was quite stupidest thing ive ever seen. However, it is in the nature of democracy for things to be fluid and now that reality is dawning, another vote on the final eventuality would be a healthy stretch of the democratic muscle, not the death of it as you opine.

    Ive said since the day of the Ref result that Brexit would never happen and each day ive been more convinced of that view. Chequers on Friday and this nonsense tonight merely cements that conviction.

    Well the House of Commons is Sovereign not the people like it is here in Ireland where we the people are Sovereign unlike the Dail. Our decision in a referendum is binding, it isn't in the UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Well the House of Commons is Sovereign not the people like it is here in Ireland where we the people are Sovereign unlike the Dail. Our decision in a referendum is binding, it isn't in the UK.

    I know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I know.

    I wasn't saying you didn't know this point Labre34. I was just pointing it out for those who might not be clear. A referendum result in Ireland is different to the UK. The house of Commons are technically under no obligation to carry out the result of the referendum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    Hmm, I'm not so sure this line of thinking can be wholly true.

    May was the instigator of inserting 'leaving the Single Market and customs Union' into government policy and entering it into the Tory manifesto.

    I can't see how a reckless decision like that can fit with the narrative above.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Gerry T wrote: »
    Just a query on the exit bill, the UK will pay for existing commitments, but will they receive monies for assets they hold in the EU, I seem to remember they will offset their liability by about 20b of assets, anyone got a link to info on this please ?

    I think such considerations were included in the December agreement on the amount owed upon withdrawal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    ‘Taking back control’
    ‘Will of the people’

    Effective sound bytes that don’t stand up to the merest scrutiny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    ‘Taking back control’
    ‘Will of the people’

    Effective sound bytes that don’t stand up to the merest scrutiny.

    Nothing about Brexit stands up to scrutiny; but it never did.

    The real abuse of democracy was entrusting such an important decision to people who didn't understand what it meant.

    Davis won't be the last to resign in protest against reality but no doubt some people will keep blaming reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,727 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    It looks like the whole house of cards is going to come tumbling down on May, given 5 of the 6 favourites for next Tory leader are Brexiteers, not sure where that would leave us? I assume they can replace the PM without having to go to the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Inquitus wrote: »
    It looks like the whole house of cards is going to come tumbling down on May, given 5 of the 6 favourites for next Tory leader are Brexiteers, not sure where that would leave us? I assume they can replace the PM without having to go to the country.

    Two precedents in the recent past - firstly, Major replacing Thatcher in 1990, followed by Brown succeeding Blair in 2007.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,246 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It does, but it has been manipulated and abused over a long period of time in the UK. To leave the EU, a necessarily super complex rules based Union of 27 democracies, would have required a far more lengthy process to facilitate a democratic process. Have a referendum to establish an *intention* to leave the EU; allow for a five year negotiation period to work out a deal with the finer points established and THEN have a referendum on that negotiated draft with strict media rules around spin and lieing to the electorate. If the people still wanted to leave, trigger Article 50 and enact it over two years.
    While nice in theory EU was very clear on that they would refuse any and all negotiations before article 50 was triggered as May did try to get some stuff done in advance and EU stonewalled her on the topic. But at least before you trigger article 50 have a basic fact check done for reality and make sure your own ducks are aligned on what the end goal to go for should look like. That is basic management 101 but May (and the rest of the government) believed EU would be a passive participants in the negotiations (and still do apparently) and accept what ever UK proposes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Bigus


    I just heard David Davis live on Radio 4 , he didn't sound like a man leading a revolt( he knows doesn't have the capability) , more so a man protecting his arsé from an inevitable failure of all scenarios.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,216 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Irish govt line is that this resignation is an internal British matter and nothing has changed since Friday.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    (non)reaction on the EU side
    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-44762836
    9:13
    EU sees Davis as 'cameo role'

    Katya Adler

    Europe Editor

    The BBC's Europe editor Katya Adler said the news that David Davis was resigning was received in Brussels "with huge interest, but not [with] huge surprise".

    One person told her that the Brexit Secretary had not really played more than "a cameo role in the past four months" as he was hardly ever there, and there had been "clear frustration" from the EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier as a result.

    She added that Olly Robbins, Theresa May's chief European aide, was seen as "the real Brexit secretary" in Brussels.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    flatty wrote: »
    That is a most interesting, and slightly reassuring post, but, surely she can see that failing to have another referendum is a perversion of democracy given even the change in demographic since the original.
    Anyhow I can see why one would be dissuaded from this also.

    If true, then how can we reconcile it with her 1st speech on Brexit (Lancaster House I think) where she laid out very hard red lines almost guaranteeing a hard brexit (unless the EU folded).

    The logic would need to be that she drove the cabinet, and the country, to believe that hard brexit was a good option when all the time she knew it was a terrible idea? So her grand plan was to lie for two years before finally pulling the big reveal?

    Sorry, I'm not buying it


This discussion has been closed.
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