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New bus lanes set to greatly reduce journey times by 50%

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    #392
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Just out of curiosity, if they ditched the cycle lanes I wonder would they then have space for the two bus lanes without widening the road?

    hmmm...


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    #393
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    They say they're gonna redirect cycle lanes through housing estates. I see two problems with this.

    1) Cyclists may not want to use this as it would be a big diversion, potentially for them. That could cause problems with slowing down buses.
    2) Residents may not want to tolerate cyclists en masse. I can hear it now "our kids can't play outside anymore on the street" and that jazz.

    That said, any separation of cyclists and cars (even as extreme as this) would do wonders for safety.


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    #394
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I don’t think many children play on roads any more between the amount of cars driven on them and the amount of motorists who think the road is their personal car park.


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    #395
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Bambi wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, if they ditched the cycle lanes I wonder would they then have space for the two bus lanes without widening the road?

    hmmm...

    Just out of curiosity, if they ditched a car lane or two, I wonder would they then have space for the two bus lanes and decent cycle paths without widening the road?

    hmmm...
    Bambi wrote: »
    I use a route that goes through both of these improvements, according to you my journey has been reduced by 40+ minutes. Funny how I never noticed that :D

    The road widening that has busy bus stops jamming a tiny path and just shifted the northbound bottleneck down to the bridge AND narrowed a footpath to turn it into a cycle lane which the cyclists ignore :D.

    It will be very reassuring to know that the NTA will CPO the end of your garden and chop down the trees on the road just so half the footpath can be given over to traffic, because the NTA doctrine states that pedestrians mix so well with cyclists and pedestrians love tickling bricks. :confused:

    The bus gate that actually added time onto my bus journey on caused complete chaos when the NTA literally railroaded a tram through it :D

    Some proof of concepts there :D

    Here's some other beauties the NTA have spearheaded, non-real time RTPI, Network Direct turning whole streets into bustops, Luas cross city, the dogs dinner that is the Leap card, all best of breed initiatives. :D

    +
    Bambi wrote: »
    The logic with the bus strategy is that you have to progressively handicap the car experience until people have no choice but to get the bus instead. It's not really a customer centric approach.

    These posts are like a few pages out of Conor Faughnan's play book. You're getting some details right, and some horribly wrong...
    • The routeing of Luas Cross City had literately nothing to do with the NTA. The preferred routing was finalised before the NTA was fully up and running.
    • Even if poor planning around Luas and the delay in the College Green Plaza messed things up, the bus gate as a concept was well proven. Ranting about Luas is not relevant to the bus gates planned outside the city centre... unless you know about more Luas lines planned?
    • I've been stuck in buses at the Cat and Cage for at least 20 mins if not longer before the widening was done. Maybe you were just super lucky.
    • The pinch point at the Cat and Cage was removed, the bit down at the bridge was and is a seprate issue that needs addressing. The whole point about the BusConnects plan is that it will address whole routes -- so, BusConnects is learning from the previous projects, and that defeats your point.
    • Yes, the road widening should have included a wider footpath, especially around the bus stop and especially given the bus stop was likely to get busier with the new DCU entrance there. You're right! :eek:
    • There was only a very, very small section narrowed and turned into a cycle lane outside the hotel, the rest was turned into and bus lane and north of the hotel was always a choice between the rubbish cycle lane on the footpath and people understandably ignoring that and using the shared bus and cycle lane. Very little change, so, you're point is mute.
    • The NTA is still in ways finding its feet and most of the issues you outline are set to be as part of the wider BusConnects project -- fixing the on board tech issues, fixing ticketing more, etc etc. It's like you have not read the BusConnects website or like you read it and are somehow using the NTA's plans against them.

    As I've already stated in other posts, I'm not sure of some of the elements of the BusConnects core route upgrade, but what you are suggesting is mostly wrong. You're right here and there, but mostly only on small points and you're horribly wrong overall. The NTA in fairness to them are trying to address the issues that you have outlined.

    I was tempted to use a :D symbol after all of the above, but I resisted, except for the :eek:


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    #396
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    monument wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, if they ditched a car lane or two, I wonder would they then have space for the two bus lanes and decent cycle paths without widening the road?

    hmmm...



    +



    These posts are like a few pages out of Conor Faughnan's play book. You're getting some details right, and some horribly wrong...
    • The routeing of Luas Cross City had literately nothing to do with the NTA. The preferred routing was finalised before the NTA was fully up and running.
    • Even if poor planning around Luas and the delay in the College Green Plaza messed things up, the bus gate as a concept was well proven. Ranting about Luas is not relevant to the bus gates planned outside the city centre... unless you know about more Luas lines planned?
    • I've been stuck in buses at the Cat and Cage for at least 20 mins if not longer before the widening was done. Maybe you were just super lucky.
    • The pinch point at the Cat and Cage was removed, the bit down at the bridge was and is a seprate issue that needs addressing. The whole point about the BusConnects plan is that it will address whole routes -- so, BusConnects is learning from the previous projects, and that defeats your point.
    • Yes, the road widening should have included a wider footpath, especially around the bus stop and especially given the bus stop was likely to get busier with the new DCU entrance there. You're right! :eek:
    • There was only a very, very small section narrowed and turned into a cycle lane outside the hotel, the rest was turned into and bus lane and north of the hotel was always a choice between the rubbish cycle lane on the footpath and people understandably ignoring that and using the shared bus and cycle lane. Very little change, so, you're point is mute.
    • The NTA is still in ways finding its feet and most of the issues you outline are set to be as part of the wider BusConnects project -- fixing the on board tech issues, fixing ticketing more, etc etc. It's like you have not read the BusConnects website or like you read it and are somehow using the NTA's plans against them.

    As I've already stated in other posts, I'm not sure of some of the elements of the BusConnects core route upgrade, but what you are suggesting is mostly wrong. You're right here and there, but mostly only on small points and you're horribly wrong overall. The NTA in fairness to them are trying to address the issues that you have outlined.

    I was tempted to use a :D symbol after all of the above, but I resisted, except for the :eek:[/quo



    Still no-one has answered the question of why the routes listed mostly already Have bus and cycle lanes!!


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    #397
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,705 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cfuserkildare wrote: »
    Still no-one has answered the question of why the routes listed mostly already Have bus and cycle lanes!!
    well, you're not going to pick narrow little back roads for this, are you?
    you pick the lower hanging fruit and eliminate the pinch points.


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    #398
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bambi wrote: »
    I'd advise against using a word like "ranting", there's a mod in here thats quick to hand out cards for being uncivil and in particular for using terms with mental health connotations. :eek::D

    And there is another moderator here who is going to uphold the forum charter that says you are not allowed to discuss moderation and issue you with a sanction for doing so.

    - Moderator


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    #399
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,545 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    ED E wrote: »
    We won't get enforcement. A good 70+ % of RT&PA is extremely rarely to never enforced. There's a mindset issue with AGS that can only be cured, IMO, by a clearing house and then a full new generation of members. The only alternative is a municipal police but any attempt at that would result in blue flu I suspect.


    Bring back traffic wardens, but put them on electric scooters.

    Situate cameras at junctions.


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    #400
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Situate cameras at junctions.
    ...and cameras within the busses to capture bus lane users


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    #401
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Bring back traffic wardens, but put them on electric scooters.

    Situate cameras at junctions.

    The m50 has cameras, you will be fined if you miss the 48hr window.

    Ask yourself why college green doesn't have cameras at the bus gate.


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    #402
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,647 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Ok then, list off those six things please

    Here's my six things:

    Enforcement of bus lanes
    Enforcement of bus lanes
    Enforcement of bus lanes
    Enforcement of bus lanes
    Enforcement of bus lanes
    Enforcement of bus lanes

    The Charlemont St bus lane is blocked by 5-10 builders vans and cars (mostly Skodas, mostly NI regs) every morning

    It was blocked back up in Ranelagh by two private detectives in two cars one morning last week during rush hour, doing a surveillance op, but they didn't seem keen to chat.

    We really, really need to enforce existing lanes urgently. But I guess that's not as much fun as making plans for the next generation.


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    #403
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Dublin actually has quite a lot of bus lanes. Certainly in the center. The suburbs are awful in general for that.

    But if we enforced the bus lanes we'd probably get a decent reduction in journey times. Its absolutely bonkers.

    https://goo.gl/maps/ZZHvZduLmHq

    Harolds Cross inbound. Bus lane, inbound lane, outbound lane, bus lane. This plan will basically not change this.

    Inbound traffic lane gets blocked by a single car (legally) turning right at the canals.

    So traffic queues in the bus lane. Morning, noon and night. Right back to where this image is taken. Its this kind of attitude that will kill this project.


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    #404
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    It was blocked back up in Ranelagh by two private detectives in two cars one morning last week during rush hour, doing a surveillance op, but they didn't seem keen to chat.
    How do you know they were private dicks doing a surveillance OP?


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    #405
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,545 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Dublin actually has quite a lot of bus lanes. Certainly in the center. The suburbs are awful in general for that.

    But if we enforced the bus lanes we'd probably get a decent reduction in journey times. Its absolutely bonkers.

    https://goo.gl/maps/ZZHvZduLmHq

    Harolds Cross inbound. Bus lane, inbound lane, outbound lane, bus lane. This plan will basically not change this.

    Inbound traffic lane gets blocked by a single car (legally) turning right at the canals.

    So traffic queues in the bus lane. Morning, noon and night. Right back to where this image is taken. Its this kind of attitude that will kill this project.


    Yet if at Harolds Cross road there are relatively new buildings at the corner of the canal. If these had been set back 3m in their planning there would have been space for a short right turn or left turn lane and that pinch point would have been eliminated.


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    #406
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Yet if at Harolds Cross road there are relatively new buildings at the corner of the canal. If these had been set back 3m in their planning there would have been space for a short right turn or left turn lane and that pinch point would have been eliminated.

    Also a prime example of enforcement. Far side is constantly blocked with shop clientele. Note: Within spitting distance of DSPS headquarters....

    px0TS9s.png


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    #407
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I don't get why you see so many cars parked outside local shops surely the whole idea of local shops is that they are within walking distance of your house compared to supermarkets and shopping centres.


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    #408
    GhostyMcGhost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭GhostyMcGhost


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't get why you see so many cars parked outside local shops surely the whole idea of local shops is that they are within walking distance of your house compared to supermarkets and shopping centres.

    The same reason traffic around local schools is nothing short of a farce

    The same reason we're the most obese in Europe

    People even park in wheelchair spots because regular spots aren't close enough

    I'd say if you took a survey, we'd be Europe's most lazy by a country mile


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    #409
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't get why you see so many cars parked outside local shops surely the whole idea of local shops is that they are within walking distance of your house compared to supermarkets and shopping centres.

    Large portion of the blockers there are builders in transit vans stopped to visit the deli then spend 20 mins in the van, in a clearway+cycle lane, to eat it.


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    #410
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭trellheim


    As a counter, look at the Old Cabra Road for example. There is no bus lane, nor room for one ( as it stands at the moment) . Enforcement of existing bus lanes will not wash - none exist. The same goes for Prussia St right down to the junction with Aughrim st. This is the always-jammed 37/39/39a/70 corridor and it is one of those planned to be 24/7

    In most times you can see one or two 39s caught along this stretch with nowhere to go. This plan would directly improve these routes.


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    #411
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    trellheim wrote: »
    As a counter, look at the Old Cabra Road for example. There is no bus lane, nor room for one ( as it stands at the moment) . Enforcement of existing bus lanes will not wash - none exist. The same goes for Prussia St right down to the junction with Aughrim st. This is the always-jammed 37/39/39a/70 corridor and it is one of those planned to be 24/7

    In most times you can see one or two 39s caught along this stretch with nowhere to go. This plan would directly improve these routes.

    There is a plan in place to demolish Prussia Street shopping Centre and replace it with student accommodation(no parking) and a small Tesco(I think with a small underground car park). There's a car garage on Prussia street which may be gone in a few years. Other than that there's a few old houses with no existing parking facilities, so the local access problem is probably manageable. The Old Cabra Road However is another story. Perhaps they could CPO a few gardens down as far as Glenbeigh avenue and have two bus lanes and two traffic lanes, with the traffic lanes turning right onto glenbeigh. That only leaves you with a few houses and a Lidl store. The car access for the Lidl store can be relocated to Anamoe. Trickey but doable with limited local access.


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    #412
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    So is one body (NTA maybe?) going to take responsibility for the whole bus route... Road surface,bus stops, lanes buses the lot...
    So if enforcement is needed they can hire a tow truck.. Or employ a lane warden, or put in cameras... Basically unilaterally fix the pinch point problems...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #413
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    cgcsb wrote: »
    There is a plan in place to demolish Prussia Street shopping Centre and replace it with student accommodation(no parking) and a small Tesco(I think with a small underground car park). There's a car garage on Prussia street which may be gone in a few years. Other than that there's a few old houses with no existing parking facilities, so the local access problem is probably manageable. The Old Cabra Road However is another story. Perhaps they could CPO a few gardens down as far as Glenbeigh avenue and have two bus lanes and two traffic lanes, with the traffic lanes turning right onto glenbeigh. That only leaves you with a few houses and a Lidl store. The car access for the Lidl store can be relocated to Anamoe. Trickey but doable with limited local access.

    I think I might have been the first one to suggested a bus gate on Old Cabra Road, at least publicly on here. And there shouldn’t be any issue even Lidl.

    Back then I recall posting it at least thinking that the builders/plumber’s providers entrance could be relocated — sad but not suprissing to hear where the entrance to Lidl was built even when the BRT route planned.


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    #414
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    We have number plate recognition and camera enforcement should be a central part of bus connects so it should be possible to exempt residents fairly easily. It's visitors and shoppers that would threaten the integrity of the system you could set a min time to enter/exit old cabra road and/or Prussia street in a car. Say if you spend less than 10 mins on either road you're not a visitor of shopper and should be fined. It's a 1.5 km stretch, managing it could be tricky.


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    #415
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭markpb


    ED E wrote: »
    The m50 has cameras, you will be fined if you miss the 48hr window. Ask yourself why college green doesn't have cameras at the bus gate.

    Because the ANPR system on the M50 cost €29 million and is ugly AF. Also it's more or less self-financing.


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    #416
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    €29mil is chicken feed, besides Belfast operated a much lower cost camera enforcement system across the whole city.


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    #417
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    How long did it take to widen that short section of road? What happened to the traffic while it was being done? How long would it take at that rate to do the whole city?

    I remember it taking about 3 months. There was little or no impact on traffic. Most was done off road and then the on road finishing bits (lines, etc.) was done mostly off peak with some cone re-arranging. I think it was also done in summer months, so that helps too.

    It will take as long as it needs. Of course it all won't happen simultaneously and of course traffic management plans will be put it place to try and limit impact.
    Bambi wrote: »
    The road widening that has busy bus stops jamming a tiny path and just shifted the northbound bottleneck down to the bridge AND narrowed a footpath to turn it into a cycle lane which the cyclists ignore :D.

    There is actually 4 lanes on that bridge. Though you are correct they aren't dedicated bus lanes and some definitely non-ideal traffic movements off to the junctions. But it is nowhere near the horrible pinch point that Cat&Cage was, that required buses to have to try and squeeze out of a bus lane back into the normal traffic lane, it was insane :eek:

    BTW you will be happy to hear that widening the bridge was part of the Swiftway plans, I assume it will be widened as part of this BusConnects plan.

    BBTW while they narrowed the footpath on the DCU side, they did a great job on the other side of the road. Such that a number of nice new restaurants and a great butchers have opened up with very attractive street furniture, really rejuvenating the place, looks much nicer now then it use to. It use to be really run down stretch of street. The chipper is the only old run down bit left now on that stretch. Thought the Cat & Cage could do with a lick of paint too.

    While the narrow footpath on the DCU side isn't ideal. It is still fine IME. It isn't a particularly heavily trafficked footpath, most people walk on the other side that is more attractive (lots of little cafes and restaurants). The DCU side is mostly just used for students waiting for the bus. The high walls of DCU don't make it an attractive footpath to walk down. You feel a bit squeezed between a high wall on one side and the road on the other. Pity they couldn't get DCU to knock the wall. Even just more open style fences would open it up a lot and make it more attractive.

    While it would be preferable if that footpath was wider, overall the job has been a fantastic success, both in the improvements to the bus movements, to the cycling (yes I use these Cycle lanes) and to helping rebuild the footpath and rejuvenate the area on the non DCU side.


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    #418
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭cython


    markpb wrote: »
    Because the ANPR system on the M50 cost €29 million and is ugly AF. Also it's more or less self-financing.

    It's also covering about 8 lanes or more, and monitoring a much greater number of vehicles travelling much faster. Not to mention that the equiment is not solely ANPR, but also tag readers, etc.

    It's a safe assumption that a more discreet and cheaper solution could be implemented for College Green without having to try too hard. You only have to look as far as the few red light cameras on the Luas red line for an example.


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    #419
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interestingly Google Maps has pictures of the Cat & Cage area from both before and after the widening and I think it could give folks a good idea what is involved in this sort of thing. Obviously the details will differ from place to place.

    This is what the street looked like at the Cat & Cage before widening. Notice just two lanes, one in each direction. There are four lanes (dedicated bus lane going both directions) before and after this 100m section. Buses use to have to try and squeeze out of the bus lanes and into these two lanes :eek:

    This is looking North

    453675.jpg

    Here you can see the widening works. You see little impact on traffic as it was being built:

    453676.jpg

    And now you can see the result, four continuous lanes, brilliant. You can even sort of see to the left that they also put an inset bus stop off the bus lane, so stopped buses shouldn't block other buses. I think that was part of the Swiftway plans for the area.

    453677.jpg

    BTW Those pictures remind me that the footpath outside DCU was always narrow, as you can see in the first picture. The new footpath is no more narrow, it is just set back further.

    Interestingly the above three pictures were obviously taken by Google Maps at three different times, the Cat & Cage is three different colours in them!


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    #420
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Even better after picture here. It covers the same area as the second picture above (maybe 2 meters ahead of it):

    453678.jpg


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    #421
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Wow, job well done.


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