New bus lanes set to greatly reduce journey times by 50%

AlmightyCushion

Bambi wrote: »

I don't trust people who've shown that they can't boil an egg to make an omelette

if you want the buses moving ASAP there is a half dozen things that could be done that won't entail waiting for half the city to be torn up and rebuilt.

Let them implement those things successfully and they might have the credibility to undertake more drastic actions

Or we might find the drastic steps are not needed after all

And as I showed in my previous post, they are. They're implementing things to reduce driver interaction which will speed up loading time.

Seth Brundle

Bambi wrote: »

I don't trust people who've shown that they can't boil an egg to make an omelette

erm, what kind of omlette uses boiled eggs?

Bambi wrote: »

if you want the buses moving ASAP there is a half dozen things that could be done that won't entail waiting for half the city to be torn up and rebuilt.

Ok then, list off those six things please

Dyr

Seth Brundle wrote: »

erm, what kind of omlette uses boiled eggs?


Ok then, list off those six things please

Closer attention required, its a mixed metaphor but I never said you have to boil eggs to make an omelette.

Functional cashless ticketing system
Enforcement of bus lanes
Enforcement of junctions
Security
Radial routes
RTPI that works as it should have
Flexible increases in service in response to demand
Transparent customer service
24 hour services.


There's nine in order of importance.

sharper

Bambi wrote: »

I've timed bus runs at various times of the day over the course of a year, the biggest hold up factor across the board is the loading times. Could be fixed fairly easily.

Ticketing and payment are also part of the bus connects initiative https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/just-the-ticket/

The problem is far too large for only one solution.

dfx-

Bambi wrote: »

Functional cashless ticketing system
Enforcement of bus lanes
Enforcement of junctions
Security
Radial routes
RTPI that works as it should have
Flexible increases in service in response to demand
Transparent customer service
24 hour services.

There's nine in order of importance.

I would take out radial routes personally, but would add a few more...

Longer running times
Timetables with departure times from each stop.
Split up the cross city routes
Three zone system, flat fare for each zone.
More scheduled [non-premium] airport services from/to various directions.
Top-up Leap with no minimum amount
Dedicated Fare Evasion officers operating day and night.
NTA real responsibility and real accountability.

No JCBs needed or cyclists consulted.

AlmightyCushion

Bambi wrote: »

Closer attention required, its a mixed metaphor but I never said you have to boil eggs to make an omelette.

Functional cashless ticketing system
Enforcement of bus lanes
Enforcement of junctions
Security
Radial routes
RTPI that works as it should have
Flexible increases in service in response to demand
Transparent customer service
24 hour services.


There's nine in order of importance.

dfx- wrote: »

I would take out radial routes personally, but would add a few more...

Longer running times
Timetables with departure times from each stop.
Split up the cross city routes
Three zone system, flat fare for each zone.
More scheduled [non-premium] airport services from/to various directions.
Top-up Leap with no minimum amount
Dedicated Fare Evasion officers operating day and night.
NTA real responsibility and real accountability.

No JCBs needed or cyclists consulted.

Whilst I agree that these would improve the overall bus service, only a few of them would actually improve bus running times which is the main goal of this plan. The ones that will improve bus running times won't make anywhere as near as big of an impact as dedicated bus lanes the whole way along a route will. Not to mention, that some of your suggestions are included in this new plan or are being trialled/implemented anyway.

Dyr

sharper wrote: »

Ticketing and payment are also part of the bus connects initiative https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/just-the-ticket/

The problem is far too large for only one solution.

Well lets see them fix the "little" things before we trust them to undertake the Bomber Command approach to city planning

AlmightyCushion

Bambi wrote: »

Well lets see them fix the "little" things before we trust them to undertake the Bomber Command approach to city planning

Little things will only make little improvements to bus commute times. We need big changes. If we stick to your approach, we wouldn't have the luas and we should scrap the metro and DART expansion. We've under invested in public transport for decades, we need to start taking it seriously and making proper, meaningful changes to it.

schemingbohemia

Bambi wrote: »

Closer attention required, its a mixed metaphor but I never said you have to boil eggs to make an omelette.

Functional cashless ticketing system
Enforcement of bus lanes
Enforcement of junctions
Security
Radial routes
RTPI that works as it should have
Flexible increases in service in response to demand
Transparent customer service
24 hour services.


There's nine in order of importance.

dfx- wrote: »

I would take out radial routes personally, but would add a few more...

Longer running times
Timetables with departure times from each stop.
Split up the cross city routes
Three zone system, flat fare for each zone.
More scheduled [non-premium] airport services from/to various directions.
Top-up Leap with no minimum amount
Dedicated Fare Evasion officers operating day and night.
NTA real responsibility and real accountability.

No JCBs needed or cyclists consulted.

All those things are laudable and most are included in Bus Connects but how many of them will really attract people out of their cars?
The only thing that will is making it quicker and easier to get a bus than it is to drive.
They're also planning for the future when the Dublin population grows significantly by 2040, the tinkering around that you're suggesting won't get people out of their cars and won't lead to a massive modal shift that's required.

ED E

1. Make Bus Lanes 24hrs and isolate them off with concrete.
2. Put auto bollards at the entrances so nobody else (bar cyclists) can use them.

Zoom zoom.

dfx-

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Whilst I agree that these would improve the overall bus service, only a few of them would actually improve bus running times which is the main goal of this plan. The ones that will improve bus running times won't make anywhere as near as big of an impact as dedicated bus lanes the whole way along a route will. Not to mention, that some of your suggestions are included in this new plan or are being trialled/implemented anyway.

Well let's focus and concentrate on getting these little trials right then into established procedures first. Longer running times means the service is more reliable, but it requires you investing in more buses and drivers to keep the service level up. Short running times means the bus is constantly behind and needs to catch up with short journeys or being out of service.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

All those things are laudable and most are included in Bus Connects but how many of them will really attract people out of their cars?
The only thing that will is making it quicker and easier to get a bus than it is to drive.
They're also planning for the future when the Dublin population grows significantly by 2040, the tinkering around that you're suggesting won't get people out of their cars and won't lead to a massive modal shift that's required.

Jumping from where we are to where you are wanting to be attracting people out of cars is wanting to sprint before you can crawl.

Again, this is where BusConnects needs to be focused on immediate, achievable short-term goals.

lawred2

this will never happen - this will be tied up in objections and constitutional challenges etc for years until everyone gives up

AlmightyCushion

dfx- wrote: »

Well let's focus and concentrate on getting these little trials right then into established procedures first.



Jumping from where we are to where you are wanting to be attracting people out of cars is wanting to sprint before you can crawl.

Again, this is where BusConnects needs to be focused on immediate, achievable goals.

Trialling all this before wanting to make proper changes that will have a meaningful impact on bus times will just delay their implementation whilst doing very little to improve bus speeds.

How is building some bus lanes too big of a task for the NTA when we are trusting them to build a metro?

ED E wrote: »

1. Make Bus Lanes 24hrs and isolate them off with concrete.
2. Put auto bollards at the entrances so nobody else (bar cyclists) can use them.

Zoom zoom.

I wouldn't do that. But better enforcement of bus lanes is a must.

Stephen15

ED E wrote: »

1. Make Bus Lanes 24hrs and isolate them off with concrete.
2. Put auto bollards at the entrances so nobody else (bar cyclists) can use them.

Zoom zoom.

I like the idea and have seen it in other cities but I don't get how buses can overtake each other with all bus stops will have to in the layby format in from the road.

Dyr

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Little things will only make little improvements to bus commute times. We need big changes. If we stick to your approach, we wouldn't have the luas and we should scrap the metro and DART expansion. We've under invested in public transport for decades, we need to start taking it seriously and making proper, meaningful changes to it.

"little" is in quotation marks for a reason, these "little" things would have a huge effect on quality of service

Dyr

dfx- wrote: »

Jumping from where we are to where you are wanting to be attracting people out of cars is wanting to sprint before you can crawl.

Again, this is where BusConnects needs to be focused on immediate, achievable short-term goals.

It's interesting that the logic in the dart and luas was that you attract people out of their cars based on the comparative advantages that a light rail system offers to driving

The logic with the bus strategy is that you have to progressively handicap the car experience until people have no choice but to get the bus instead. It's not really a customer centric approach.

monument

Bambi wrote: »

The logic with the bus strategy is that you have to progressively handicap the car experience until people have no choice but to get the bus instead. It's not really a customer centric approach.

Who exactly is saying that but you?

If one really wanted to skip the CPOs as you are suggesting, you didn’t list the two most effective ways for improving bus services:

(1) more bus / access only streets —small sections on the Old Cabra Road and in Stoneybatter would have a huge effect OR in Kimmage as planned OR on the Rathmines Roads. The first place to start might be in the city centre — such as Camden Street to Dame Street.

(2) Better bus lanes using existing spaces — bus lanes that go right up to junctions, more use of bollards and even kerbs, bringing bus lanes right up to junctions, more traffic lights at junctions to hold back left turning cars where there space etc

But then again you might think those things would just to be to “handicap the car experience” when they are in fact bus priority measure.

bk

dfx- wrote: »

Well let's focus and concentrate on getting these little trials right then into established procedures first.

They already have trialled many of these concepts.

Widening the road at the Cat&Cage in Drumcondra to allow continuous bus lane.

The Bus Gate in the city center. The Bus priority on the quays.

They were all widely succseful and took 20+ minutes off peoples journey times.

Now that they have proven these concepts, BusConnects is basically rolling them out to the whole city.

bk

Add to monuments list above, automated enforcement cameras all over the city that enforce speed limits, red lights and bus lanes.

Hand out automatic fines and penalty points.

Actually they should do this, even if BusConnects goes ahead.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

They already have trialled many of these concepts.

Widening the road at the Cat&Cage in Drumcondra to allow continuous bus lane.

The Bus Gate in the city center. The Bus priority on the quays.

They were all widely succseful and took 20+ minutes off peoples journey times.

Now that they have proven these concepts, BusConnects is basically rolling them out to the whole city.

How long did it take to widen that short section of road? What happened to the traffic while it was being done? How long would it take at that rate to do the whole city?

RayCun

It isn't about handicapping the car experience. It's about giving cars priority that reflects their importance as a mode of transport. Inside the city, cars have too low a carrying capacity to be the core of a transport strategy.

sharper

Bambi wrote: »

Well lets see them fix the "little" things before we trust them to undertake the Bomber Command approach to city planning

I don't think the government has a great track record at delivering big things, little things or even day to day things. I wouldn't see that as a reason to object to this particular plan.

I think "bomber command" and allusions to communism are very dramatic and silly. We're talking about a part of some people's front gardens.

Qrt

does anyone know if land could be CPO'd and given to a resident as compensation in lieu of cash? There's a stretch of the crumlin road where houses have very small back gardens as the car park of crumlin shopping centre is just behind, but the terraced block to the west have much larger gardens. If that were me I would be furious, but only because the back gardens look minuscule. One thing I have noticed about houses along the 16 Corridors is that the majority have sizeable back gardens, with some on Walkinstown Avenue having rear lane access.

magicbastarder

what land do you expect would be CPOed and handed over as compensation?
i would suspect the main issue would be that CPOs have to be done to benefit the population at large. you can't CPO property of one private citizen to give it to another private citizen. if that's not a fundamental principle of the CPO process, it should be.

Qrt

magicbastarder wrote: »

what land do you expect would be CPOed and handed over as compensation?
i would suspect the main issue would be that CPOs have to be done to benefit the population at large. you can't CPO property of one private citizen to give it to another private citizen. if that's not a fundamental principle of the CPO process, it should be.

True, maybe they could persuade crumlin shopping centre to sell some of their parking. It's not like it's a thriving hub or anything

marno21

Noel Rock brought up BusConnects as a topical issue in the Dail yesterday, although it is more akin to NTA bashing than discussing the bus corridors.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-06-14a.324

Dyr

bk wrote: »

They already have trialled many of these concepts.

Widening the road at the Cat&Cage in Drumcondra to allow continuous bus lane.

The Bus Gate in the city center. The Bus priority on the quays.

They were all widely succseful and took 20+ minutes off peoples journey times.

Now that they have proven these concepts, BusConnects is basically rolling them out to the whole city.

I use a route that goes through both of these improvements, according to you my journey has been reduced by 40+ minutes. Funny how I never noticed that

The road widening that has busy bus stops jamming a tiny path and just shifted the northbound bottleneck down to the bridge AND narrowed a footpath to turn it into a cycle lane which the cyclists ignore .

It will be very reassuring to know that the NTA will CPO the end of your garden and chop down the trees on the road just so half the footpath can be given over to traffic, because the NTA doctrine states that pedestrians mix so well with cyclists and pedestrians love tickling bricks.

The bus gate that actually added time onto my bus journey on caused complete chaos when the NTA literally railroaded a tram through it

Some proof of concepts there

Here's some other beauties the NTA have spearheaded, non-real time RTPI, Network Direct turning whole streets into bustops, Luas cross city, the dogs dinner that is the Leap card, all best of breed initiatives.

ED E

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I wouldn't do that. But better enforcement of bus lanes is a must.

We won't get enforcement. A good 70+ % of RT&PA is extremely rarely to never enforced. There's a mindset issue with AGS that can only be cured, IMO, by a clearing house and then a full new generation of members. The only alternative is a municipal police but any attempt at that would result in blue flu I suspect.

pclive

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/not-in-my-front-yard-how-to-make-the-new-bus-plan-work-1.3530832

Maggie speaks of her front yard as if it’s the botanical gardens!
It’s just a big car park Maggie!

magicbastarder

i found her house quite easily on google maps - their back garden is significantly bigger than the front, too. they certainly won't be left without a garden.