Dublin - BusConnects

Dardania

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm only reposting what others have said, and I'm no expert in this at all, I'm sure they'll pop in and correct me if I'm wrong.

NTA are currently looking at Hybrid buses right now, and are open to single decker battery buses.

Double Decker battery buses aren't really viable right now, but probably will be in ten years or so.

As Dublin mainly uses Double Decker buses, we'd really need to be replacing like with like.

So, all in all, it won't happen as part of BusConnects, and they actually need to start making Double Decker battery buses in volume, but it will happen over time, as the older fleet buses get replaced.

Fair point. Interestingly, a couple of the BusConnects routes would need to be single decker due to restrictions on the route (I have a feeling the DART bridge on Macken street was driving the O orbital route was one?).
With the replacing like for like business...there might an argument that if the buses run more frequently, they don't need to be automatically as capacious as they are presently. A similar analogy to Emirates airline running two 777s per day to a destination rather than one A380 - more frequent and overall great capacity.

CatInABox

Dardania wrote: »

Fair point. Interestingly, a couple of the BusConnects routes would need to be single decker due to restrictions on the route (I have a feeling the DART bridge on Macken street was driving the O orbital route was one?).
With the replacing like for like business...there might an argument that if the buses run more frequently, they don't need to be automatically as capacious as they are presently. A similar analogy to Emirates airline running two 777s per day to a destination rather than one A380 - more frequent and overall great capacity.

Yes, the O route is to be single decker, 28 seats with increased standing/wheelchair room. Those could be battery buses straight away, but I have a feeling that the NTA is a pretty conservative organisation, and will probably wait for such buses to be tested more in the real world by other cities/countries. There might also be an issue with battery capacity on an orbital route such as the O, but I don't know the current capacity/distance they can travel.

Stephen15

I suggested it before but would the O route not be a good scope for bendy buses if the proper infrastructure was put in place it could even be BRT.

Dardania

Stephen15 wrote: »

I suggested it before but would the O route not be a good scope for bendy buses if the proper infrastructure was put in place it could even be BRT.

It depends on the needed capacity per bus. If it's truly high frequency, maybe bendy buses aren't needed, and conventional / simpler single decks would suffice.
BusConnects is all about frequency to deliver capacity, not slower higher capacity. BRT might be advantageous if the route permits it, otherwise a bit of agility in traffic might be better to deliver the frequency

Sam Russell

I saw two single deckers today on the N11 near Stillorgan. They were GA buses under training.

The blue livery look awful - very dark and makes the bus invisible. Needs light relief - maybe a splash of yellow.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

I saw two single deckers today on the N11 near Stillorgan. They were GA buses under training.

The blue livery look awful - very dark and makes the bus invisible. Needs light relief - maybe a splash of yellow.

Were they 03 Mercedes Citaros which are dark purple or 182 Wrightbus Streetlites which are light blue? Those Mercedes Citaros are only for training and won't be going into public service.

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Were they 03 Mercedes Citaros which are dark purple or 182 Wrightbus Streetlites which are light blue? Those Mercedes Citaros are only for training and won't be going into public service.

They had Go Ahead written on them - with an 'L' plate on the back. That is all I know.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

They had Go Ahead written on them - with an 'L' plate on the back. That is all I know.

Did they look like this?

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Did they look like this?

No. Not a bit.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

No. Not a bit.

Those must be the Citaros which were bought in second hand from the UK. They are just for training and won't be used in service. Something like the bus on the left here in the picture I take it?

Peregrine

Yeah, the Mercs are in for Go Ahead driver training only and their livery has nothing to do with the NTA.

Any NTA single deckers will be Wright Streetlites with a lighter blue livery (the first picture Stephen posted).

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Those must be the Citaros which were bought in second hand from the UK. They are just for training and won't be used in service. Something like the bus on the left here in the picture I take it?

Yes, that looks like it (them - there were two of them).

Horrible livery.

roadmaster

I seen the Nass to Blanch bus had Route 139 painted on it. I know not strictly bus connects but by painting the Number on the bus and not just having it digital does this not leave the buses a bit inflexible If you need for some reason to move buses around.

Stephen15

roadmaster wrote: »

I seen the Nass to Blanch bus had Route 139 painted on it. I know not strictly bus connects but by painting the Number on the bus and not just having it digital does this not leave the buses a bit inflexible If you need for some reason to move buses around.

That's because Kavanaghs only have 2 or 3 buses that only operate on that route perhaps they do hire outs for them aswell. Back in the Cityswift in the 90's days the number was printed outside the bus eg. "27 Malahide Road Flyer" but those buses would regularly end up on other routes.

I have also seen BE buses with route branding on other routes like for example the buses with the Navan Express branding on other routes.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Did they look like this?

I have to say, the new livery looks great on that single decker, though it seems to be missing something on the lower front by the logo, can't put my finger on it, might just be the picture and angle.

Overall I'm really liking what I'm seeing in pictures of these, I'm looking forward to seeing them in person.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

I have to say, the new livery looks great on that single decker, though it seems to be missing something on the lower front by the logo, can't put my finger on it, might just be the picture and angle.

Overall I'm really liking what I'm seeing in pictures of these, I'm looking forward to seeing them in person.

They do look well alright. They look bigger than the Streetlites DB recently bought for the 44b, I wonder are they 28 seater which the NBRU were scaremongering about. I'm a little bit disappointed that they don't have middle doors. In London all the buses apart from a small few have dual doors including most single deckers but I guess it's not a huge deal.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

They do look well alright. They look bigger than the Streetlites DB recently bought for the 44b, I wonder are they 28 seater which the NBRU were scaremongering about. I'm a little bit disappointed that they don't have middle doors. In London all the buses apart from a small few have dual doors including most single deckers but I guess it's not a huge deal.

The smallest Streetlite that Wright produce is an 8.8m vehicle with 33 seats as standard. They do however offer a wheel forward version with 28 seats to TFL specification.

They offer a range of lengths up to 11.5m that can seat up to 45.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The smallest Streetlite that Wright produce is an 8.8m vehicle with 33 seats as standard. They do however offer a wheel forward version with 28 seats to TFL specification.

They offer a range of lengths up to 11.5m that can seat up to 45.

So the NBRUs scaremongering was only scaremongering and not the "truth" which they claimed.

Kevtherev1

Another bus connects article. Calls for a bus route to connect the Red and Green Luas Lines with a orbital route between Red Cow- M50-- Carrickmines



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-connects-plan-missing-orbital-link-between-luas-lines-1.3581340

Heartbreak Hank

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

Another bus connects article. Calls for a bus route to connect the Red and Green Luas Lines with a orbital route between Red Cow- M50-- Carrickmines



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-connects-plan-missing-orbital-link-between-luas-lines-1.3581340

Who is the "Mr. Mitchell" that is quoted in the article? No introduction given to him.

CatInABox

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Who is the "Mr. Mitchell" that is quoted in the article? No introduction given to him.

Yeah, it's bizarre, and bad journalism.

The proposal is a ridiculously poor use of buses as well, having a buses trundle along a motorway with no ability to stop and pick up passengers, just to connect two tram lines.

I can understand the desire, but BusConnects is all about getting the most out of our current bus fleet, but buses aren't the way to connect the Luas

Bray Head

CatInABox wrote: »

I can understand the desire, but BusConnects is all about getting the most out of our current bus fleet, but buses aren't the way to connect the Luas

Bus Connects includes the (sensible) proposal to a return to a part single-decker fleet for at least some orbital routes.

Currently, routes are built around the capacities of the fleet, and not the other way around.

Heavy double-deckers that chew diesel are not optimal on lightly-patronised, peripheral routes with lots of stops.

Dardania

CatInABox wrote: »

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Who is the "Mr. Mitchell" that is quoted in the article? No introduction given to him.

Yeah, it's bizarre, and bad journalism.

The proposal is a ridiculously poor use of buses as well, having a buses trundle along a motorway with no ability to stop and pick up passengers, just to connect two tram lines.

I can understand the desire, but BusConnects is all about getting the most out of our current bus fleet, but buses aren't the way to connect the Luas

I thin somewhere in the report, the authors note reluctance to rely on the M50 due to congestion. The use case sounds valid - could be one of those peak routes, if there is ridership to justify it? Not stopping everywhere isn't such a bad idea, or interchanges could be just off the motorways (like the N4/M50 interchange proposed for example)

Kevtherev1

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Who is the "Mr. Mitchell" that is quoted in the article? No introduction given to him.

Correct i noticed that myself, no proof reading by the writer. Meeting was organized by Fianna Gael. Maybe mitchell is formed TD and MEP Gay Mitchell but that is just a guess on my part.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Mitchell


Why is their no new bus route going between Luas Tallaght Red line to Luas green line Dundrum. Tallaght - terenure --dundrum. I suppose new connects plan people have to change at terenure.

Qrt

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

Another bus connects article. Calls for a bus route to connect the Red and Green Luas Lines with a orbital route between Red Cow- M50-- Carrickmines



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-connects-plan-missing-orbital-link-between-luas-lines-1.3581340

If only there were multiple planned...oh wait!

LionelNashe

I googled 'Fine Gael North Wicklow Mitchell' and found this councillor:

https://twitter.com/CllrDMitchell/status/1014539013791932416

Pixel Eater

Sorry just coming in on this thread now; what is the NBRU's gripe with the potential new system? Is it just the usual union intransigence or do they have some genuine concerns? I just checked their Twitter feed and it mostly consists of ad hominem attacks on Walker himself and can't really make out what their issue is??

schemingbohemia

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Sorry just coming in on this thread now; what is the NBRU's gripe with the potential new system? Is it just the usual union intransigence or do they have some genuine concerns? I just checked their Twitter feed and it mostly consists of ad hominem attacks on Walker himself and can't really make out what their issue is??

Don't like change, view it as a stalking horse for further privatisation, pretending they care about their customers.

Think they were opposed to Network Direct as well, but perhaps not as visibly, remember hearing of leaflets on buses.

They just keep showing their ignorance of the merits of the scheme.

Referring to it as the Walker scheme is just ignorant.

CatInABox

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Sorry just coming in on this thread now; what is the NBRU's gripe with the potential new system? Is it just the usual union intransigence or do they have some genuine concerns? I just checked their Twitter feed and it mostly consists of ad hominem attacks on Walker himself and can't really make out what their issue is??

Even Walker can't get their issue out of them. He's asked them several times, but it seems to come down to the NBRU believing that requiring an interchange is an all out assault on the community, therefore they want to keep the direct routes at all costs.

Cynical old me, I just think that the NBRU is on a recruitment drive, looking for more money, or are worried about their roster.

cgcsb

it's cannon fodder for an industrial dispute, that is all. Network Direct was a case of axing services to maintain pay and conditions, so of course the NBRU would have nothing to say on the matter.

CatInABox

The first public meeting with the NTA is going on now, out in Charlestown SC, in Finglas.

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1025013660941537281

Seems to be great interest.

fly_agaric

Had been wondering where the opposition is coming from also.
I had a thought it might be a general fear of "privatisation" as they see it.
The simplification/efficiency gains make it easier to see which parts of Dublin bus service could be hived off for profit.
Of course that would have nothing at all to do with this plan, and is all about Irish politics, the ignorance of the general public (& FF/FG love of privatising stuff).

edit: didn't see this

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Don't like change, view it as a stalking horse for further privatisation, pretending they care about their customers.

Think they were opposed to Network Direct as well, but perhaps not as visibly, remember hearing of leaflets on buses.

They just keep showing their ignorance of the merits of the scheme.

Referring to it as the Walker scheme is just ignorant.

dublinman1990

The IT article also says the 84x route will be retained but it won't have that number once BusConnects gets implemented. They don't realize that it will be called the 301 going from either Kilcoole or Newcastle into Dublin City Centre. The article also has the choices report printed from last year which should be useless now because the new report for the actual network redesign has been already published on the BusConnects website.

Ush1

Trying to work out a journey on this proposed system. It would be from the current bus stop 4880 in Tallaght to the city centre.

From what I can work out this will take 3 buses. 240, then A2 and then A. Is that correct?

devnull

Ush1 wrote: »

Trying to work out a journey on this proposed system. It would be from the current bus stop 4880 in Tallaght to the city centre.

From what I can work out this will take 3 buses. 240, then A2 and then A. Is that correct?

There is no such thing as an 'A' bus, what 'A' means is all buses that start with the A prefix so A2 would be one of those so if you need to get the 240 to connect with the A2, you would just get those two buses.

Peregrine

Ush1 wrote: »

Trying to work out a journey on this proposed system. It would be from the current bus stop 4880 in Tallaght to the city centre.

From what I can work out this will take 3 buses. 240, then A2 and then A. Is that correct?

No, there's no A route. You'd just get on the 240 and then the A2 into the city centre.

There's also the 16 to the city centre (kind of like an extended 15b) from Whitestown/Kiltiper Way. It's every 10 minutes at peak times and every 20-26 minutes off peak. It's not as direct.

Alternatively, you could get the S6, S7 or S8 from Old Bawn Road to The Square and get the Luas. Or walk to The Square and get the Luas.

Qrt

Peregrine wrote: »

Or walk to The Square and get the Luas.

That walkway is going to need some serious work done if that's going to be viable for anybody after sunset. It's one of those "you wouldn't let your daughter walk that way" pathways.

Ush1

Qrt wrote: »

That walkway is going to need some serious work done if that's going to be viable for anybody after sunset. It's one of those "you wouldn't let your daughter walk that way" pathways.

Are you talking about whitestown way? I normally walk through old bawn and then through Sean Walsh park to the square.

Qrt

Ush1 wrote: »

Are you talking about whitestown way? I normally walk through old bawn and then through Sean Walsh park to the square.

I'm on about the walkway between the Blue Bridge and Dún an Óir, between OBCS and Seán Walshe Park. Where the homeless fella was murdered a while back...

Victor

roadmaster wrote: »

Independent.ie are saying residents could be getting €25k per square meter. Would they get that much?

It might cost that (although I think that is a high number), but the property owner wouldn't get it all. There are other costs - legal, design, construction and in particular doing new boundaries.

cgcsb wrote: »

The proposal to ban cars on Prussia Street and Cabra road, except for local access, access to Prussia st shopping centre and the Lidl is interesting. Like how exactly would that be enforced?

You could do a bus gate with rising bollards.

CatInABox wrote: »

I wonder how they're planning on building them. Working on all of them at the same time would be traffic suicide, so which ones should get priority?

Priority would go on two main factors (a) legally, which one can proceed first and (b) which provides the best cost:benefit ratio - the benefit benefit being measure in reduced bus operation costs and less time wasted stuck in traffic.

LXFlyer wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

It proposes radial journeys to Rathfarnham would be some of the fastest in Dublin, it's hard to imagine now but if the money is spent and the moaners ignored, there isn't any real reason why not.

Really?

It and the Templeogue QBC have the slowest bus speeds in the city.

There is no way that such a change in peak journey times will ever be achieved on that route - it’s cloud cuckoo land.

Short of razing the heart of Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines villages to the ground it’s frankly impossible.

I've sat on a bus at the traffic lights at Rathmines Town Hall for 6 minutes and not moved. Changing the lane arrangement and the traffic lights and adding enforcement would mean things like that wouldn't happen.

At Rathmines Garda Station, you have similar problems that could be solved by turning on the bus gate here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3203178,-6.2682842,3a,75y,19.63h,89.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1_jVCj-NTGvtxn9YDmj-RA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In Terenure and Rathgar, moving where general traffic queues for the junction could be used to improve the lot of buses.

LXFlyer

Some basic enforcement of the road traffic laws and existing bus priority measures would make a difference, and frankly that’s where I think the focus should be on. The lack of any enforcement is a serious problem.

I still don’t see the journey time changes that the NTA are suggesting for the south central corridors ever happening Victor. The proposed CPO activity is going to be mired in actions in the courts, you can be sure of that.

As for closing roads to general traffic outside of the city centre, I think that is going to be exceptionally difficult to push through as well.

Frankly the proposed infrastructure changes in the south central area strike me as nothing more than tinkering around the edges, and I suspect won’t actually happen, and I remain unconvinced that anything short of a metro line for the area will make any real difference.

Pixel Eater

Is there any news on further public consultations locations? Neither the NTA or the Bus Connect website seems to have that info, well as far as I can see.

Heartbreak Hank

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Is there any news on further public consultations locations? Neither the NTA or the Bus Connect website seems to have that info, well as far as I can see.

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1263/confirmed-information-session-locations-august-2018.pdf


There are more in September too AFAIK.

Victor

LeinsterDub wrote: »

To the ramparts comrades the NTA are coming for our houses!

It mentions Monday 7 July. That's not this year.

Full article here: http://www.localnews.ie/221%20North%20July%205%202018%20They%20want%20more%20than%20gardens.pdf The author Paul Kelly seems to hang out with Brid Smith of People Before Profit.

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Sorry just coming in on this thread now; what is the NBRU's gripe with the potential new system? Is it just the usual union intransigence or do they have some genuine concerns? I just checked their Twitter feed and it mostly consists of ad hominem attacks on Walker himself and can't really make out what their issue is??

It seems that a lot of it is rabble rousing along various socialist principles.

schemingbohemia

The usual crew are using it as a "wedge" issue, something to rile up their constituents - see household waste, water charges, paying for anything, anything changing - and trying to show that they're the peoples champions.
If they actually engaged with the process properly instead of getting the totally impartial NBRU in to their meetings they might get a better outcome for their constituents. But that isn't as useful to their project as organising a march in the city centre.

Zebra3

Victor wrote: »

It mentions Monday 7 July. That's not this year.

Full article here: http://www.localnews.ie/221%20North%20July%205%202018%20They%20want%20more%20than%20gardens.pdf The author Paul Kelly seems to hang out with Brid Smith of People Before Profit.

It seems that a lot of it is rabble rousing along various socialist principles.

What socialist issues? Bus Connects itself is a pro-socialist issue.

L1011

It reduces the number of bus drivers required to provide the same level of service. That is the reason the far left union is against it and their political followers have followed

Not one driver will be laid off, the plan massively increases the number of buses and drivers required - just less than if they kept the current mess

devnull

I suspect the fact that long standing staff members would be on pretty good shifts, with lots of overtime, less working anti-social hours and weekends and on the best routes and duties for many years and this could be lost if the network is redrawn, also plays a factor.

Plus remember orbitals are pretty much Go-Ahead and radials are Dublin Bus - hence why they want to keep as many of the former as possible I presume.

Victor

devnull wrote: »

Plus remember orbitals are pretty much Go-Ahead and radials are Dublin Bus

I suspect the NTA will treat this as a general rule, not a strict demarcation.

Zebra3

L1011 wrote: »

It reduces the number of bus drivers required to provide the same level of service. That is the reason the far left union is against it and their political followers have followed

Not one driver will be laid off, the plan massively increases the number of buses and drivers required - just less than if they kept the current mess

Far left? LOL.