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    #1562
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Synode wrote: »
    There's plot holes in all the films though. I suspend all belief when going into watch a Star Wars movie

    Suspension of disbelief still requires a movie to be internally consistent though. This is one of those critiques of criticism that always annoys me ("ugh, its got space battles get over it, none of it is real"). Especially when it comes to a long-running series like Star Wars, they create their own universe and it needs to make sense withing its own setting.


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    #1563
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Says a lot that I haven't bothered to go see Solo yet and have no plans to. I saw everything since Force Awakens as soon as they came out. I loved Force Awakens at first, I really didn't want it to be terrible and it wasn't. I felt like a child again. Each film since then has been a muddled mess. If Rogue One was a story that didn't need to be told, why would I bother with a solo prequel. I can't stand yer wan from Game of Thrones either. I'll see the last episode in this trilogy but I finding it hard to care anymore. Star Wars has fallen off.

    I will never understand why they didn't recast the original cast members and do the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Vastly, vastly superior in terms of plot arc and it's a solid narrative tying three very different chapters into one trilogy.

    Also leaves the door open for the Star Wars: Invasion arc which with a younger cast and a decent budget could have been incredible as either a stand alone or further trilogy.


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    #1564
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I will never understand why they didn't recast the original cast members and do the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Vastly, vastly superior in terms of plot arc and it's a solid narrative tying three very different chapters into one trilogy.

    Also leaves the door open for the Star Wars: Invasion arc which with a younger cast and a decent budget could have been incredible as either a stand alone or further trilogy.

    I completely get the dumping of the EU. It needed to happen to free up Disney to produce stories that they wanted to produce without having to sift through mountains of EU stuff to get there.


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    #1565
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Solo is the first of the new films I haven't really enjoyed that much. I really wanted to like it even if Han never was my favourite character - it was very MEH
    although gotta hand it to them for adding the Maul scene, fact they'd the balls to include him on big screen considering those that didn't see Clone Wars or Rebels assume he died on Naboo. People Infront of me in cinema went "oh this must be set before Phantom Menace".
    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I will never understand why they didn't recast the original cast members and do the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Vastly, vastly superior in terms of plot arc and it's a solid narrative tying three very different chapters into one trilogy.

    Also leaves the door open for the Star Wars: Invasion arc which with a younger cast and a decent budget could have been incredible as either a stand alone or further trilogy.

    They were cool trilogy alright, but I do like what they have done with Thrawn in Rebels. Zahn's second book of the new Thrawn trilogy is out soon, should be a good one


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    #1566
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I completely get the dumping of the EU. It needed to happen to free up Disney to produce stories that they wanted to produce without having to sift through mountains of EU stuff to get there.

    It's a stand alone trilogy, it borrows from Star Wars but not other aspects of the EU and the author has said publicly that he was happy to come to a deal with Disney.


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    #1567
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Suspension of disbelief still requires a movie to be internally consistent though. This is one of those critiques of criticism that always annoys me ("ugh, its got space battles get over it, none of it is real"). Especially when it comes to a long-running series like Star Wars, they create their own universe and it needs to make sense withing its own setting.

    What exactly didn't make sense?


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    #1568
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Synode wrote: »
    What exactly didn't make sense?
    Luke on the one hand risking his life and the fate of the galaxy on a man he didn't know, who had long ago turned to the dark side, committed numerous evil acts and was still actively trying to kill him on the one hand, and then on the other trying to murder his nephew that he'd known since birth, who hadn't turned to the dark side and hadn't yet done anything wrong while in his sleep.
    I mean that's a pretty big departure in terms of characterisation, and served as the catalyst for everything that happened across both new films.
    Then there's the matrix element. "Dark rises, and light to meet it". That whole scene was like the Architect explaining that the stronger Neo got, the stronger Smith got. To "balance the equation".
    When was that ever a thing in Star Wars? Balance in the force was a thing in the prequels, but in reality we never saw it or heard of it at any point in any of the other 6 films.


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    #1569
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Luke on the one hand risking his life and the fate of the galaxy on a man he didn't know, who had long ago turned to the dark side, committed numerous evil acts and was still actively trying to kill him on the one hand, and then on the other trying to murder his nephew that he'd known since birth, who hadn't turned to the dark side and hadn't yet done anything wrong while in his sleep.
    I mean that's a pretty big departure in terms of characterisation, and served as the catalyst for everything that happened across both new films.
    Then there's the matrix element. "Dark rises, and light to meet it". That whole scene was like the Architect explaining that the stronger Neo got, the stronger Smith got. To "balance the equation".
    When was that ever a thing in Star Wars? Balance in the force was a thing in the prequels, but in reality we never saw it or heard of it at any point in any of the other 6 films.

    Personally I wouldn't say that either of them don't make sense (double negative yeoww) but I can understand where you're coming from. Neither took any enjoyment out of the films for me anyway. I'm a simple man, I watch Star Wars to see cool space **** and battles. The finer nuances of the plot are secondary


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    #1570
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Synode wrote: »
    Personally I wouldn't say that either of them don't make sense (double negative yeoww) but I can understand where you're coming from. Neither took any enjoyment out of the films for me anyway. I'm a simple man, I watch Star Wars to see cool space **** and battles. The plot is pretty much secondary

    But there wasn't even much of that stuff. Although some of the space scenes I thought were excellent. And the main fight scene on the ship was done pretty well, including the build up. I just don't think they built on that properly at all. They could have gone a completely new direction with that (see the revelations that Benicio Del Toros character showed Fin) and it might have peaked my interest. Instead though we just got more of the same piled on top of a premise that didn't stack up at all. And for me, if the story doesn't make sense then it's game over.


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    #1571
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    The last 30 minutes of both Rogue1 and TLJ are some of the best battle scenes in all the movies for me. Visually stunning


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    #1572
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I mean that's a pretty big departure in terms of characterisation
    It's a massive departure in terms of characterisation. Which is the point.

    They had to justify his absence/disappearance and provide motivation. To explain why a previously altruistic character whose passion drove the previous trilogy would cut themselves off entirely from the world and the force. And that moment of madness was that motivation.

    Also its important to remember we don't and won't ever know exactly what happened between him and the other geezer, its a reference to an old Kurasawa samurai movie where a rape is shown from 3 perspectives, Kurasawa being a big inspiration for Lucas on the original trilogy.

    And the balance thing I'm not sure about but pretty sure it was a pretty important aspect of the prequels right?


    I don't have a problem with any of that. What I do have a problem with, probably my biggest gripe, is the whole storyline when the two lads went off on their own. I do agree that was pointless and fairly boring. Not a fan of that.

    Didn't want to spoiler this. Because like... if you haven't seen it yet you won't! But sure go on...


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    #1573
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,600 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Suspension of disbelief still requires a movie to be internally consistent though. This is one of those critiques of criticism that always annoys me ("ugh, its got space battles get over it, none of it is real"). Especially when it comes to a long-running series like Star Wars, they create their own universe and it needs to make sense withing its own setting.

    You know what destroyed my suspension of disbelief. The stupid jokes. Right at the start of the Last Jedi when Poe is messing with Hux pretending he can't hear him over their intercom thing, it just ruins it. I don't care they're in space, Hux is still the general of a massive force, he's not supposed to be a blubbering incompetent idiot.


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    #1574
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Luke on the one hand risking his life and the fate of the galaxy on a man he didn't know, who had long ago turned to the dark side, committed numerous evil acts and was still actively trying to kill him on the one hand, and then on the other trying to murder his nephew that he'd known since birth, who hadn't turned to the dark side and hadn't yet done anything wrong while in his sleep.
    I mean that's a pretty big departure in terms of characterisation, and served as the catalyst for everything that happened across both new films.
    Then there's the matrix element. "Dark rises, and light to meet it". That whole scene was like the Architect explaining that the stronger Neo got, the stronger Smith got. To "balance the equation".
    When was that ever a thing in Star Wars? Balance in the force was a thing in the prequels, but in reality we never saw it or heard of it at any point in any of the other 6 films.

    That's tip of the iceberg stuff for the last Jedi.
    Running out of fuel in a slow chase, yet can jump to light speed. Luke asking 'how did you find me' when he supposedly left a map. Them using Luke as a proof of escape tunnels when he's actually a ghost. During the space chase obviously tie fighters no longer exist. The entire Snoke storyline whilst not a plot hole had zero continuity with that characters existence to that point.

    They're some of the ones I remember, there are plenty I've forgotten about and that ignores the clumsy writing in general. I never bought into the film and ultimately by the end I was questioning how it had ever been deemed good enough to release.


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    #1575
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    errlloyd wrote: »
    You know what destroyed my suspension of disbelief. The stupid jokes. Right at the start of the Last Jedi when Poe is messing with Hux pretending he can't hear him over their intercom thing, it just ruins it. I don't care they're in space, Hux is still the general of a massive force, he's not supposed to be a blubbering incompetent idiot.

    Yeah there was a lot of them that didn't land right for me. Not sure if it's just tone deaf writers or a product of Disney's ownership of the whole thing. Abrams certainly avoided it, so I'm hoping that'll be cut out in the next one.


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    #1576
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    Kids love the jokes though


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    #1577
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Synode wrote: »
    Kids love the jokes though

    Kids, teens and adults loved and still love the originals. Good movies have the ability to appeal to everyone!

    That said, if you enjoy it then I'm glad. I wish I was more invested in the new trilogy but it's good that people are still having fun with them!


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    #1578
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It's a massive departure in terms of characterisation. Which is the point.

    They had to justify his absence/disappearance and provide motivation. To explain why a previously altruistic character whose passion drove the previous trilogy would cut themselves off entirely from the world and the force. And that moment of madness was that motivation.

    Also its important to remember we don't and won't ever know exactly what happened between him and the other geezer, its a reference to an old Kurasawa samurai movie where a rape is shown from 3 perspectives, Kurasawa being a big inspiration for Lucas on the original trilogy.

    And the balance thing I'm not sure about but pretty sure it was a pretty important aspect of the prequels right?


    I don't have a problem with any of that. What I do have a problem with, probably my biggest gripe, is the whole storyline when the two lads went off on their own. I do agree that was pointless and fairly boring. Not a fan of that.

    Didn't want to spoiler this. Because like... if you haven't seen it yet you won't! But sure go on...

    I'd have been okay with that if we'd been given a reason why we were seeing such a monumental shift in the character, but it was never explained. We just had to accept it. And that sort of thing ran through the film as a whole for me. Johnson just decided what story he wanted to tell and decided he didn't care how or if that fit into what went before. He just casually threw away the stuff he didn't like and ran with the stuff that he did regardless of what went before. And it made the whole trilogy feel a mess of a set-up with no real direction. Because it has no direction.


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    #1579
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Are we really having a intellectual and deep conversation about Star Wars?


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    #1580
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,600 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    I'm gonna sound like an absolute film snob here, but I do slightly worry that quality cinema is getting squeezed out.

    A group in work asked me if I wanted to go see Solo, as far as I can tell it's the fifth movie they've been to in the last 4 months. The others were Deadpool 2, Avengers Infinite War, Black Panther, and Tomb Raider. Now I haven't seen any of them, so I can't say they're bad, but it does seem a little repetitive?


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    #1581
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I'd have been okay with that if we'd been given a reason why we were seeing such a monumental shift in the character, but it was never explained. We just had to accept it. And that sort of thing ran through the film as a whole for me. Johnson just decided what story he wanted to tell and decided he didn't care how or if that fit into what went before. He just casually threw away the stuff he didn't like and ran with the stuff that he did regardless of what went before. And it made the whole trilogy feel a mess of a set-up with no real direction. Because it has no direction.

    It was explained though!

    Also it was very heavily connected to the other movies all the way through. I thought it was extremely impressive the amount of references and work he put in to connect everything back to his research, even if I didn’t get it immediately.


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    #1582
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It was explained though!

    Also it was very heavily connected to the other movies all the way through. I thought it was extremely impressive the amount of references and work he put in to connect everything back to his research, even if I didn’t get it immediately.

    Meh, I'm all for a movie challenging you after you've left the cinema and forcing you to think about themes or finding a greater understanding of what actually happened. However there is a difference between that and having to go and find excuses in lore that might explain poor plot devices.

    The film wasn't remotely good enough to justify deeper research regardless.


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    #1583
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Meh, I'm all for a movie challenging you after you've left the cinema and forcing you to think about themes or finding a greater understanding of what actually happened. However there is a difference between that and having to go and find excuses in lore that might explain poor plot devices.

    The film wasn't remotely good enough to justify deeper research regardless.

    I didn’t need to find excuses for poor plot devices because, beyond that one thread, I didn’t really think there were any, just aspects I didn’t understand at first. The ones you mentioned are pretty minor as well and explanations exist there also.

    I just withheld drawing conclusions until I got a chance to discuss it, realised there were explanations, then I was impressed. After that I was happy with the thing. I think that’s one of the reasons i like those movies, the depth of the stuff and the chance to listen to friends theories before/after. Same with Game of Thrones. Need to find something else when that is finished!


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    #1584
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It was explained though!

    Also it was very heavily connected to the other movies all the way through. I thought it was extremely impressive the amount of references and work he put in to connect everything back to his research, even if I didn’t get it immediately.

    Was it? I saw the reason why he wanted to do what he did, I never saw why he got to the point where he felt that was on the cards. Given that he hadn't gotten to that point with Vader, then surely Ben must have done some really bad **** to warrant that reaction from a guy who risked everything to save someone who had participated in genocide (and lots more besides). But if he'd done that bad **** then he wouldn't still be in the Jedi Academy surely? What steps did he take to try and save Ben?

    His actions never made sense to me given the character we knew from the first 3 films. And it was a crucial point in the whole story.


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    #1585
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,015 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Was it? I saw the reason why he wanted to do what he did, I never saw why he got to the point where he felt that was on the cards. Given that he hadn't gotten to that point with Vader, then surely Ben must have done some really bad **** to warrant that reaction from a guy who risked everything to save someone who had participated in genocide (and lots more besides). But if he'd done that bad **** then he wouldn't still be in the Jedi Academy surely? What steps did he take to try and save Ben?

    His actions never made sense to me given the character we knew from the first 3 films. And it was a crucial point in the whole story.
    Well my take on it was that after everything that he went through to defeat the Emperor and the huge losses that everyone suffered in the struggle, there was no way that he'd allow another force of darkness rise up again and start the whole thing all over again. And so he decided to end it before it began and then bottled it, because it was his nephew. And couldn't face the consequences, so ran away. But still conflicted enough to leave a map for someone to find him. If they could.


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    #1586
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Well my take on it was that after everything that he went through to defeat the Emperor and the huge losses that everyone suffered in the struggle, there was no way that he'd allow another force of darkness rise up again and start the whole thing all over again. And so he decided to end it before it began and then bottled it, because it was his nephew. And couldn't face the consequences, so ran away. But still conflicted enough to leave a map for someone to find him. If they could.
    "How did you find me? I came here to die"
    ... suggests he didn't leave a map.


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    #1587
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,015 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    "How did you find me? I came here to die"
    ... suggests he didn't leave a map.
    Thank goodness I wasn't hanging my theory on that one... ;)


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    #1588
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Was it? I saw the reason why he wanted to do what he did, I never saw why he got to the point where he felt that was on the cards. Given that he hadn't gotten to that point with Vader, then surely Ben must have done some really bad **** to warrant that reaction from a guy who risked everything to save someone who had participated in genocide (and lots more besides). But if he'd done that bad **** then he wouldn't still be in the Jedi Academy surely? What steps did he take to try and save Ben?

    His actions never made sense to me given the character we knew from the first 3 films. And it was a crucial point in the whole story.

    When Vader told Luke that he would turn Leia and his friends to the dark side he actually flipped out and went mad and "let his anger control him" etc. Then ultimately he relented in time and did not kill Vader.

    When he had the vision of Ben killing all his famiiy and jedi he went mad and drew his lightsaber, then very quickly he relented and did not kill Adam Driver. Or maybe he didn't relent and the other perspective was more accurate. We aren't sure of that. But it's all in keeping with his character.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    "How did you find me? I came here to die"
    ... suggests he didn't leave a map.

    Yeah, and he didn't leave a map to himself, innit. He was trying to find that place before he disappeared and the one geezer what knew and helped him find it was that geezer what Llewyn Davis went and found in the Abrams film.


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    #1589
    kuang1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭kuang1


    errlloyd wrote: »
    I'm gonna sound like an absolute film snob here, but I do slightly worry that quality cinema is getting squeezed out.

    A group in work asked me if I wanted to go see Solo, as far as I can tell it's the fifth movie they've been to in the last 4 months. The others were Deadpool 2, Avengers Infinite War, Black Panther, and Tomb Raider. Now I haven't seen any of them, so I can't say they're bad, but it does seem a little repetitive?

    No doubt the quality of movie making is poor these days.
    Mind you I say the same about music.

    I reckon it's down to one of 2 things:
    Me aging, or they've already made all the good ones!


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    #1590
    kuang1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭kuang1


    I'm probably alone in this:
    I'm a big sci-fi/fantasy/adventure fan. Always have been.
    The Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, The Goonies, Close Encounters, Star Trek and all of its off-shoots, Battlestar Galactica, and countless other movies and shows always gained my full attention.

    Yet Star Wars never did. I've never been able to explain why because it should be right up my street.

    Last year I even sat down and watched one of the newer ones (don't remember which one) with my brother-in-law who's a big fan of them, and it did absolutely nothing for me.

    No one else paddling the same canoe?


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    #1591
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kuang1 wrote: »
    I'm probably alone in this:
    I'm a big sci-fi/fantasy/adventure fan. Always have been.
    The Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, The Goonies, Close Encounters, Star Trek and all of its off-shoots, Battlestar Galactica, and countless other movies and shows always gained my full attention.

    Yet Star Wars never did. I've never been able to explain why because it should be right up my street.

    Last year I even sat down and watched one of the newer ones (don't remember which one) with my brother-in-law who's a big fan of them, and it did absolutely nothing for me.

    No one else paddling the same canoe?

    No one ever reply to Kuang1 ever again.


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