Off Topic Thread 4.0

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

How and why Brexit is still happening is beyond my comprehension.

It's like being 16, and bragging to your mates that you could dive off the top diving board, and when they egg you on, you're too proud to admit you were wrong, so you **** yourself climbing to the top board and totter to the edge, looking down nervously and having second thoughts... then Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg shove you in the back and you do the biggest bellyflop in history, cracking numerous ribs and you're definitely never having kids, while Bojo and JRM stand there cackling and counting the money they collected in bets that you would do it... that's Brexit.

irishbucsfan

Sounds like that hurt is still raw for you Zzippy

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Listening to LBC there this morning, jesus christ Labour voters are so completely naive...

They genuinely think that Corbyn was/is holding onto a hard brexit position in order to appease voters in the northern constituencies, they can't see that they're the ones being appeased! Corbyn is some magician to keep them all onside.

(I say was/is because this supposed shift by Labour towards a "softer" brexit is still absolutely bonkers and has 0% of getting anywhere)

I'm out of the loop on Brexit, what subsection of Labour voters were they?

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sounds like that hurt is still raw for you Zzippy

The metaphorical humiliation is worse than the metaphorical pain from the metaphorical bellyflop. But hey, at least I didn't lose face and climb back down!

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

How and why Brexit is still happening is beyond my comprehension.

I ask myself the same thing everyday.

But then when I read social media I realise that there are people in the UK who have a very old fashioned outlook on the world.

I blame Britain's education system for failing a great many people.

Edit - I was reading a Facebook post by Theresa May earlier commemorating D-Day and the comments section turned into a s*** fight between Remainers and Brexiteers. It basically went along the lines of "we won the war and yet Germany rules us because we are in the EU". Really infuriating stuff...

Podge_irl

There is a vast swathe of British society that has yet to get over losing their empire.

bilston

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is a vast swathe of British society that has yet to get over losing their empire.

Yeah, what they forget is that while Britannia ruled the waves there was massive economic and social disparity in England. At the height of the British empire people were sent to fecking workhouses. Britain has its problems but the idea that the "olden days" were better is just mental.

It's hard to measure how much of that is down to Britain being in the EU. Britain had a welfare state decades before it joined the EEC, but getting all teary eyed avout a glorious past which didn't really exist for most Britons is daft.

As for immigration, much of that is a result of the end of the British Empire and has nothing to do with the EU.

Urrrgggghhhh...it still winds me up. I guess I'm a certified remoaner.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'm out of the loop on Brexit, what subsection of Labour voters were they?

They're the subsection of labour voters who are to the left of the party enough to support Corbyn but not left enough to be lexiteers. Which is a majority perhaps.

It's people who know brexit is a train wreck but want to excuse the party's position on it because they really, really want to believe the party's stance is a realistic position.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

Yeah, what they forget is that while Britannia ruled the waves there was massive economic and social disparity in England

I saw a stat this morning that the UK has the richest region in Northern Europe as well as 9 of the 10 poorest regions. Mad when you think about it.

mfceiling

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I saw a stat this morning that the UK has the richest region in Northern Europe as well as 9 of the 10 poorest regions. Mad when you think about it.

I love how ALL of NI is a poor region. I wonder what the well heeled residents of Helen's Bay and Holywood make of that!!

irishbucsfan

mfceiling wrote: »

I love how ALL of NI is a poor region. I wonder what the well heeled residents of Helen's Bay and Holywood make of that!!

Well I mean the same would be true of "Inner London"!

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They're the subsection of labour voters who are to the left of the party enough to support Corbyn but not left enough to be lexiteers. Which is a majority perhaps.

It's people who know brexit is a train wreck but want to excuse the party's position on it because they really, really want to believe the party's stance is a realistic position.

And did they strike you as more middle or working class? I'm guessing the former? If so, it's interesting, because I know a good few left wing middle class Labour supporters who have never warmed to Corbyn. While they might admire his stance on many issues, they nonetheless see the man as utterly unelectable. Any risen stock from Labour's performance in the snap election was offset by his continued fudging of Brexit (and their skepticism of his real stance on the EU). It's a very interesting observation about Britain's first-past-the-post system, you gravitate towards the most electable leader, of the party most likely to win a majority, that best suits your political stance. In that order. DUP are a classic example of this.

errlloyd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I saw a stat this morning that the UK has the richest region in Northern Europe as well as 9 of the 10 poorest regions. Mad when you think about it.

Before recent referendums I used to often wonder about Irish Independence, and whether or not it was a good thing. I mean our politicians are mostly a bunch of gob****es, our laws were very strongly Catholic and our infrastructure was crap because we'd been poor so long.

But looking at this just makes you realise, if we didn't get independence when we did we'd be ****ed.

bilston

errlloyd wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I saw a stat this morning that the UK has the richest region in Northern Europe as well as 9 of the 10 poorest regions. Mad when you think about it.

Before recent referendums I used to often wonder about Irish Independence, and whether or not it was a good thing. I mean our politicians are mostly a bunch of gob****es, our laws were very strongly Catholic and our infrastructure was crap because we'd been poor so long.

But looking at this just makes you realise, if we didn't get independence when we did we'd be ****ed.

Or alternatively those extra votes would have swung the referendum result the other way to keep the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in the EU!

I still don't really know how Theresa May is ever going to find a deal that everyone can accept over the border.

Neil3030

bilston wrote: »

Or alternatively those extra votes would have swung the referendum result the other way to keep the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in the EU!

Interesting exercise. Assuming the Irish vote to remain would be somewhere between that of NI (62.7%) and Scotland (67.2%), and given a turnout similar to the 8th amendment referendum (2,159,655), that'd be a net increase on the remain vote of ~500k to 750k, which wouldn't have been enough.

You'd actually need the Irish voting 80% remain to tip it. Which I'd say is very unlikely.

errlloyd

bilston wrote: »

Or alternatively those extra votes would have swung the referendum result the other way to keep the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in the EU!

I still don't really know how Theresa May is ever going to find a deal that everyone can accept over the border.

I don't just mean Brexit though, I think we'd just have ended up being a poor, downtrodden and unloved corner of the kingdom like so many of the other places there that are in relative poverty.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Before recent referendums I used to often wonder about Irish Independence, and whether or not it was a good thing. I mean our politicians are mostly a bunch of gob****es, our laws were very strongly Catholic and our infrastructure was crap because we'd been poor so long.

But looking at this just makes you realise, if we didn't get independence when we did we'd be ****ed.

I'm glad to see the Church retreating from it's involvement in policy, schooling and social morality but I think it's important not to forget what the church contributed to make Ireland what it is today. As much as they did awful, awful things with the control they had - they still educated the country for much of the last century and that education contributes to the way we think and importantly vote.

I have no desire to see my children set foot inside a church or be educated in a non secular way, but I also get annoyed at how 'anti-church' the country has gotten as it ignores an enormous amount of good work by good people because of the actions of some of their members and leaders.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't just mean Brexit though, I think we'd just have ended up being a poor, downtrodden and unloved corner of the kingdom like so many of the other places there that are in extreme poverty.

Worse, we'd be 'the blame'. We'd be hated more than any other immigrant group because we'd cost Westminster a fortune and they'd never have invested anything to develop Ireland. The depiction of the Irish in recent British history will tell you in sufficient detail how we'd be viewed within the 'kingdom'.

In fact the human rights movement in the north would have most likely been replicated down here and the treatment would have been the same.

I'd take 1960's independent Ireland with it's poverty and lack of direction over any kind of Westminster led 2018 Ireland.

Squidgy Black

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm glad to see the Church retreating from it's involvement in policy, schooling and social morality but I think it's important not to forget what the church contributed to make Ireland what it is today. As much as they did awful, awful things with the control they had - they still educated the country for much of the last century and that education contributes to the way we think and importantly vote.

I have no desire to see my children set foot inside a church or be educated in a non secular way, but I also get annoyed at how 'anti-church' the country has gotten as it ignores an enormous amount of good work by good people because of the actions of some of their members and leaders.

I think a lot of the anti-church sentiment is because of the foothold they still have on our government and the reluctance to let go.

Our education system is still heavily influenced by the church and in many places there's no option but to send your child to a catholic school.

A lot of our laws are still outdated and driven by church policies, for example the 8th and the blasphemy law.

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I think a lot of the anti-church sentiment is because of the foothold they still have on our government and the reluctance to let go.

Our education system is still heavily influenced by the church and in many places there's no option but to send your child to a catholic school.

A lot of our laws are still outdated and driven by church policies, for example the 8th and the blasphemy law.

I agree in some ways but the Church and the state are still given the impression of having a mandate because people keep saying they are Catholic on the census.

I think it was nearly 80% in the most recent census, backed up by most people still getting married in churches, having funerals in churches and most couples still sending their kids to communion and confirmation.

It's complete bull**** and hypocrisy and it's not on the churches part, we just want to have our cake and eat it when it comes to tradition and death. My sister was banging on about repeal for months and then a week after the vote invites everyone over for her kids confirmation. I really had to bite my tongue to be honest.

Podge_irl

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I think a lot of the anti-church sentiment is because of the foothold they still have on our government and the reluctance to let go.

Our education system is still heavily influenced by the church and in many places there's no option but to send your child to a catholic school.

A lot of our laws are still outdated and driven by church policies, for example the 8th and the blasphemy law.

When the British left we didn't know who to turn to and the catholic church was the most well suited to taking over. Not actually that dissimilar in some small way to the MB in Egypt for the first democratic elections. They were simply better placed to take advantage of it by being a well organised collective.

It has taken quite a while to get past that.

Anyhoos, Ireland has done plenty of stupid things since independence. But Brexit is basically the stupidest thing I have ever seen a European country do. Not just based on the concept (which I think is silly) - they could have engineered something ok out of it. But The execution since then has been hilariously inept.

irishbucsfan

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been a good sitcom to come out of it yet.

Although that could well be because none of the channels would dare commission one! Iannucci is probably itching to bring back TTOI

Squidgy Black

Deleted User wrote: »

It's complete bull**** and hypocrisy and it's not on the churches part, we just want to have our cake and eat it when it comes to tradition and death. My sister was banging on about repeal for months and then a week after the vote invites everyone over for her kids confirmation. I really had to bite my tongue to be honest.

Yeah it generally seems to be the case that even if people are critics of the church, they still do the whole routine of a christening and communion etc just for the social aspect of it, and what the neighbours and friends would think if they didn't do it.

It's one aspect of Irish society I've never managed to wrap my head around, everything seems to be based around what will other people think if you don't conform. We seem to be stuck in a mindset of having to do things as everyone else does for fear of the auld wan three doors down giving your ma a glaring look or talking about her behind her back at the bingo.

Interested Observer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I think a lot of the anti-church sentiment is because of the foothold they still have on our government and the reluctance to let go.

Our education system is still heavily influenced by the church and in many places there's no option but to send your child to a catholic school.

A lot of our laws are still outdated and driven by church policies, for example the 8th and the blasphemy law.

The govt have made the blasphemy law basically unenforceable. There's never been a prosecution under it and there never will be.

As for the 8th, it's gone now but up until very recently it was an issue that very much divided the public. The 2002 referendum that would have made the abortion rules even tighter failed by a few thousand votes only.

Buer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It's one aspect of Irish society I've never managed to wrap my head around, everything seems to be based around what will other people think if you don't conform. We seem to be stuck in a mindset of having to do things as everyone else does for fear of the auld wan three doors down giving your ma a glaring look or talking about her behind her back at the bingo.

There's an incredible amount of keeping up appearances still in Irish society. I can completely understand why it is the way it is but I have to laugh at it.

I was at a funeral a couple of weeks ago and it was the most painfully contrived display from a family I've seen. They wouldn't be seen dead in one another's company from one year to the next but in front of their community it was an exercise in pre-planned grief. I won't go into details as it would probably be recognised but every single aspect of the ceremony involving the family was done to garner the maximum amount of social approval.

It's incredible that at a time when you should be at your most vulnerable and raw, people were more concerned with putting on a display.

mfceiling

Buer wrote: »

There's an incredible amount of keeping up appearances still in Irish society. I can completely understand why it is the way it is but I have to laugh at it.

I was at a funeral a couple of weeks ago and it was the most painfully contrived display from a family I've seen. They wouldn't be seen dead in one another's company from one year to the next but in front of their community it was an exercise in pre-planned grief. I won't go into details as it would probably be recognised but every single aspect of the ceremony involving the family was done to garner the maximum amount of social approval.

It's incredible that at a time when you should be at your most vulnerable and raw, people were more concerned with putting on a display.

That's all of Ireland in a nutshell. We had the young ones communion a couple of weeks ago.
I warned herself about going overboard with food and drink. As usual I was over ruled because the "shame" of running out of ANYTHING would be too much to bear.
Now I'm not too bothered about wine and beer as they can be polished off anytime, but when you're throwing the best of food in the bin 2 days later it really gets on your goat.
You would think after 2 previous communions and a confirmation that the penny would have dropped? No.

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

That's all of Ireland in a nutshell. We had the young ones communion a couple of weeks ago.
I warned herself about going overboard with food and drink. As usual I was over ruled because the "shame" of running out of ANYTHING would be too much to bear.
Now I'm not too bothered about wine and beer as they can be polished off anytime, but when you're throwing the best of food in the bin 2 days later it really gets on your goat.
You would think after 2 previous communions and a confirmation that the penny would have dropped? No.

I can't remember the last time I went to a communion where the parents in question were in any way religious.

It's a complete sham event, a total waste of time and money and complete indoctrination that said same parents would rail against if they paid any attention. Kids are thought creationism during communion classes, they are told that God created the world. Does anyone in this country still believe that and if not - why the **** do we allow people tell most of our kids that this is how life came about?

We really are a stupid species at times.

stephen_n

bilston wrote: »

Or alternatively those extra votes would have swung the referendum result the other way to keep the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in the EU!

I still don't really know how Theresa May is ever going to find a deal that everyone can accept over the border.

There will be no deal at this stage, it’s too late to negotiate one. I actually don’t think there was ever going to be one, as Brexit is based on restriction of free movement and that’s a cornerstone of the EU.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

There will be no deal at this stage, it’s too late to negotiate one. I actually don’t think there was ever going to be one, as Brexit is based on restriction of free movement and that’s a cornerstone of the EU.

Labour decided not to back the Lords' EEA proposal this week precisely because they think they can remain in the single market without accepting freedom of movement. They are living in a fantasy world.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Labour decided not to back the Lords' EEA proposal this week precisely because they think they can remain in the single market without accepting freedom of movement. They are living in a fantasy world.

Their statement on this is pure fantasy land. Basically they are saying that they can clean up the Tories mess and get the best deal - despite the fact that the deal they proclaim to be able to obtain would never in a million years be ratified by the EU and moreover would probably and quite quickly lead to the collapse of the EU.

I've never quite been 'against' Corbyn but he is as much of a disaster for Britain as the Tories by not giving a realistic alternative and he is as much of a dreamer or spoofer as they are for convincing himself that he can obtain said deal.

I have a bit of time for him because he does things that are unpopular because he believes in them - but he isn't capable of leadership because he isn't capable of compromise. He is a fanatic.