Jastine Valdez found dead. No Ana discussion please. Mod warning post 1

optogirl · 23-05-2018 01:04PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I disagree, bad acts can be committed by people who are mentally well. I think your stance is dangerous as it moves in the direction of treating rather than punishing criminals.

Some people are violent criminals because it is learned. They are not mentally unsound because they commit violent acts.

Case in point, members of the travelling communities are well documented as having much higher instances of violent crime convictions compared to the rest of the population. Do you believe that's attributable to mental health? Does that correlate with mental health studies in the travelling community?

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

dbas · 23-05-2018 01:08PM

strandroad wrote: »

That's definitely a possibility, but no evidence so far.

I wouldn't touch the mental health card until there is clear evidence, out of respect for real mental health issues sufferers.

Most people with poor mental health are a danger to themselves, not others. This man murdered a young woman in cold blood, and the main displays of remorse shown were shown when he knew the game was up and gardai were after him and civil defence forces had tried to block him in in Killiney and he probably heard the details of the jeep released on the car radio. He scrawls a note on a sheet of paper in a car park and this is a display of remorse??

Self pity is all it is, not pity. He's pure scum and is exactly where he belongs

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 01:10PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

You said it yourself. People online who dont know.

No I dont see it as insulting.

Think you missed my point.

Some with mental illness might be gentle and meek as a lamb others might have violent ideas and tendencies. Totally dependent on the individual and their circumstance.

Taking offence is just silly. Why?.
No one is saying all mental illness is the same. In fact Im saying the opposite.

I think you've actually missed my point. I'm disagreeing with those on this thread who are implying that abduction and murder is exclusively a symptom of mental illness.

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 01:11PM

optogirl wrote: »

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

No it doesn't . Unless you can show that the same people who are violent and commiting crime subsequently commit suicide

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 01:14PM

optogirl wrote: »

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

I'm aware of that statistic but that would be more in relation to depression/suicide and so I'm not factoring that in to violent criminal tendencies. It's being implied on this thread by some that those tendencies must have a root cause in other mental illnesses such psychopathy.

I don't believe depressive or suicidal people have criminal tendencies in general (obviously there would be some exceptions).

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 01:16PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Take Graham Dwyer or Joe O Reilly for example . Both evil and bad but the courts ruled they were not mentally ill . Being bad and evil does not always point to mental illness

Or take a gang of young men attacking people or stabbing someone . They are not all mentally ill but are bad

Exactly, I presume you're agreeing with me?

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 01:16PM

jiltloop wrote: »

Exactly, I presume you're agreeing with me?

Yes ! I am

wexie · 23-05-2018 01:18PM

optogirl wrote: »

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

you're confusing correlation and causation.

Travellers also tend to have more children than settled people.

Should we draw the link between people who have more than average children and people who commit more than average crimes?

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 01:21PM

wexie wrote: »

you're confusing correlation and causation.

Travellers also tend to have more children than settled people.

Should we draw the link between people who have more than average children and people who commit more than average crimes?

In fairness to Optogirl I think she was just disputing a specific part of my post and not drawing any correlations herself.

Correct me if I'm wrong though!

The Nal · 23-05-2018 01:22PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I'm not sure I can agree with this at all to be honest. If this were to become the accepted opinion of the courts for instance would we then see people receiving psychiatric treatment instead of custodial sentences just because behaving like a bad/evil person=mentally ill?

I think theres a case that it should be done more. In Ireland, 45% of released prisoners re-offend within 3 years, 61% of that 45% within 6 months.

Wide variety of crimes granted but just chucking people in prison isn't particularly effective.

_feedback_ · 23-05-2018 01:22PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I disagree, bad acts can be committed by people who are mentally well. I think your stance is dangerous as it moves in the direction of treating rather than punishing criminals.

Some people are violent criminals because it is learned. They are not mentally unsound because they commit violent acts.

Case in point, members of the travelling communities are well documented as having much higher instances of violent crime convictions compared to the rest of the population. Do you believe that's attributable to mental health? Does that correlate with mental health studies in the travelling community?

Good point re the travelling communities. That is very much "learned" as you say..

I understand what you are saying too about the treating of criminals, rather than punishing, and I suppose maybe it is just the fact that most people cannot comprehend that people like this man, or Dwyer, or any murderer would be simply evil. What makes them evil? and what programmes their mind like that? I certainly find it hard to understand how they can be completely without mental illness while carrying out acts like they have. It's just mind boggling.

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 01:32PM

The Nal wrote: »

I think theres a case that it should be done more. In Ireland, 45% of released prisoners re-offend within 3 years, 61% of that 45% within 6 months.

Wide variety of crimes granted but just chucking people in prison isn't particularly effective.

I think prison sentences are far too lenient in this country and that is major factor as to why many prisoners reoffend. There's just no incentive not to if you're getting minimal sentences and of course less time in jail=more time to reoffend.

Also there's no guarantee that if (big if) their criminal behavior is attributable to mental illness, that treatment would be successful. It would also be a difficult pill to swallow (pardon the pun) for the victims or the victim's family if the perpetrator is receiving medical treatment rather than spending time in a proper prison environment.

The Nal · 23-05-2018 01:39PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I think prison sentences are far too lenient in this country and that is major factor as to why many prisoners reoffend. There's just no incentive not to if you're getting minimal sentences and of course less time in jail=more time to reoffend.

Also there's no guarantee that if (big if) their criminal behavior is attributable to mental illness, that treatment would be successful. It would also be a difficult pill to swallow (pardon the pun) for the victims or the victim's family if the perpetrator is receiving medical treatment rather than spending time in a proper prison environment.

Its a delicate one I agree yeah. But how many times have you seen rapists, murderers etc on the news who were "known to the police" and "had 45 previous convictions" and the like.

Longer terms sure but sometimes the line is not so fine between being a cúnt and being mentally ill in need of help. Help that would benefit society.

I've no issue with them being helped and then lobbed in jail.

sightband · 23-05-2018 01:48PM

i’ve followed this thread and said very little as the story was evolving, i can say even after a few days it’s clear as f*cking mud what happened. i’m just after reading in two different national papers that he was only shot once and then the other reported that he was shot in chest also.

it’s a big story, why can’t the garda press office issue some kind of statement especially to all those hacks writing through their holes....and please don’t respond with because it’s an ongoing investigation. the only one who knew anything about that full day seems to be dead.

martyoo · 23-05-2018 01:52PM

I think prison sentences are far too lenient in this country and that is major factor as to why many prisoners reoffend.

I'm not sure if I believe that. Sentences in the US are the very long compared to Ireland and they still reoffend at a very high rate.

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 01:56PM

sightband wrote: »

i’ve followed this thread and said very little as the story was evolving, i can say even after a few days it’s clear as f*cking mud what happened. i’m just after reading in two different national papers that he was only shot once and then the other reported that he was shot in chest also.

it’s a big story, why can’t the garda press office issue some kind of statement especially to all those hacks writing through their holes....and please don’t respond with because it’s an ongoing investigation. the only one who knew anything about that full day seems to be dead.

Can I just ask why you seem to think we are all entitled to every detail of a murder enquiry ?

23-05-2018 02:03PM

martyoo wrote: »

I'm not sure if I believe that. Sentences in the US are the very long compared to Ireland and they still reoffend at a very high rate.

But at least as you suggest from the sentencing they will be away from society for a long time. I would edit NOT want to see people go away for a long time for one/first off minor offences unless they had racked up so many that it was clear they weren't being rehabilitated by a system that just lets them off with a rap on the knuckles.

TomOnBoard · 23-05-2018 02:29PM

Ther have been lots of useful views given in the preceding posts dealing with a range of perspectives on mental illness, mad vs bad, cultural predispositions and a few others. I'm going back to Hennessy's heinous act. We all should want to know what set this off, and I'm sure that we will hear lots of background information on him and his character, his actions and activities, and indeed whether or not he may have been involved in previous crimes. Some of that information will tell us things about him that were inherent in his make-up, that contributed to his appalling attack. Some of that information will also tell us things about him that came from his use/abuse of drugs/alcohol. It's that last piece we really need to know about. Why? Because IF that use/abuse contributed to a state of mind where he was not normal and became a monster- for however long that state existed - and in that state of mind he attacked, abducted and murdered an innocent young woman, we need to know!

We're now hearing about Hennessey buying coke on Saturday night in the pub, shortly after the murder, and returning for more some hours later. The Gardai are investigating an alleged contact with him in an agitated state on Killiney Beach on Sunday, and later a super-aggressive stance prior to him being shot. He is alleged to have ended up banging on the front door of a stranger's house some weeks ago and when confronted, was described as being 'wired'. All of this behaviour (and that's only the few bits that have been reported) is surely abnormal and is very typical of someone who is using cocaine or amphetamines or other stimulants. And that's my focus here.

He's dead, and many would say good riddance, although most of us would also be sad for his family, if we have any sadness left to spare from our far deeper feelings for Jastine and her family. IF this tragedy has resulted wholly or partly from drug abuse, then it may educate us further on the deep and evil risks associated with cocaine and other stimulant abuse. If we do learn from this, then perhaps some good can be extricated from the evil that was done. If we don't, how many more such dreadful murders will we see?

tretorn · 23-05-2018 02:35PM

Im wondering what sort of life his family had living with him.

I am glad he was shot dead, if he had killed one of my children it would kill me to think someone like that would live while my child was in a grave.

Thank God someone witnessed what he did because if he wasnt seen then Jastine could have disappeared and her parents would never have known what happened.

MarkY91 · 23-05-2018 02:38PM

I'm told by my brother's workmates seen him at that pub the day of the killing buying cocaine.

sightband · 23-05-2018 02:38PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Can I just ask why you seem to think we are all entitled to every detail of a murder enquiry ?

every detail? did you see the bit where i mentioned it’s clear as mud as to what happened. there’s reporting and muck on the likes of this thread that will have a profound impact on both families, a bit of clarification from authorities on what actually happened will put a lot of it to bed. even all the **** about congratulating the garda from everyone on this for taking down this nutter, scum blah blah blah, the latest is that it was an unfortunate ricochet....imagine how the garda feels that that was supposedly not his intent not to mention all the subsequent investigation he will go through.

sometimes clarity and issuing statements helps, again not every detail which i never mentioned.

Amalgam · 23-05-2018 02:40PM

It might be a Godsend for certain people in his life.. some partners can gaslight/isolate their wives/husbands in very subtle ways that are very very difficult to pick up on, outside of the family.

The death of Jastine Valdez, followed so soon after that of Ana Kriegel, just leaves you feeling grotty inside, your mind gets bogged down in a mire, if you pause to think a bit too much..

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:55PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Ther have been lots of useful views given in the preceding posts dealing with a range of perspectives on mental illness, mad vs bad, cultural predispositions and a few others. I'm going back to Hennessy's heinous act. We all should want to know what set this off, and I'm sure that we will hear lots of background information on him and his character, his actions and activities, and indeed whether or not he may have been involved in previous crimes. Some of that information will tell us things about him that were inherent in his make-up, that contributed to his appalling attack. Some of that information will also tell us things about him that came from his use/abuse of drugs/alcohol. It's that last piece we really need to know about. Why? Because IF that use/abuse contributed to a state of mind where he was not normal and became a monster- for however long that state existed - and in that state of mind he attacked, abducted and murdered an innocent young woman, we need to know!

We're now hearing about Hennessey buying coke on Saturday night in the pub, shortly after the murder, and returning for more some hours later. The Gardai are investigating an alleged contact with him in an agitated state on Killiney Beach on Sunday, and later a super-aggressive stance prior to him being shot. He is alleged to have ended up banging on the front door of a stranger's house some weeks ago and when confronted, was described as being 'wired'. All of this behaviour (and that's only the few bits that have been reported) is surely abnormal and is very typical of someone who is using cocaine or amphetamines or other stimulants. And that's my focus here.

He's dead, and many would say good riddance, although most of us would also be sad for his family, if we have any sadness left to spare from our far deeper feelings for Jastine and her family. IF this tragedy has resulted wholly or partly from drug abuse, then it may educate us further on the deep and evil risks associated with cocaine and other stimulant abuse. If we do learn from this, then perhaps some good can be extricated from the evil that was done. If we don't, how many more such dreadful murders will we see?

I think you're really quite wide of the mark here. Drug abuse may end up being a small contributing factor but the main factor is that this was obviously a messed up/evil/mentally ill individual who committed these acts.

You come across as having an axe to grind and you're stuffing this whole awful event in a narrative that suits a chip you have on shoulder for whatever reason.

kunst nugget · 23-05-2018 03:04PM

Can't say I've ever seen the likes of cocaine do anything up but just turn up the volume knob on a person's personality. It usually got turned up from quiet to arsehole. I never saw it changing a person's underlying personality.

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 03:07PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Can't say I've ever seen the likes of cocaine do anything up but just turn up the volume knob on a person's personality. It usually got turned up from quiet to arsehole. I never saw it changing a person's underlying personality.

It can cause a cocaine induced psychosis . I have seen it first hand in a horrendous incident and assault on my home by a stranger .

kunst nugget · 23-05-2018 03:11PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It can cause a cocaine induced psychosis . I have seen it first hand in a horrendous incident and assault on my home by a stranger .

What happened if you don't mind me asking?

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 03:12PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

What happened if you don't mind me asking?

I honestly would prefer not to , it is still very raw .

TomOnBoard · 23-05-2018 03:18PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I think you're really quite wide of the mark here. Drug abuse may end up being a small contributing factor but the main factor is that this was obviously a messed up/evil/mentally ill individual who committed these acts.

Did you see that I used the word If? Oh, and I capitalised it for emphasis! Twice!!

I also said that I was focusing on the drug/alcohol abuse angle, other angles being well enough handled by many other posters. Why would anyone have a problem with that factor being considered in this case? After all, NO-ONE has very much of a clue as to how this character ticked, and what led to his becoming a monster. So my attempt at putting a perspective on the table is surely as worthy of consideration as any and all other perspectives???

jiltloop wrote: »

You come across as having an axe to grind and you're stuffing this whole awful event in a narrative that suits a chip you have on shoulder for whatever reason.

When I was in school many years ago, I learned that, during a discussion, however heated, you play the ball and not the man!!

Oh, and for info I am extremely well-balanced. I have a chip on BOTH shoulders!!

;-)

optogirl · 23-05-2018 03:23PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Can't say I've ever seen the likes of cocaine do anything up but just turn up the volume knob on a person's personality. It usually got turned up from quiet to arsehole. I never saw it changing a person's underlying personality.

the volume knob...or the knob volume?:D

optogirl · 23-05-2018 03:24PM

wexie wrote: »

you're confusing correlation and causation.

Travellers also tend to have more children than settled people.

Should we draw the link between people who have more than average children and people who commit more than average crimes?

No not at all - I thought the question was being asked as to whether there were higher instances of bad mental health among travellers.

Jastine Valdez found dead. No Ana discussion please. Mod warning post 1

Comments