Jastine Valdez found dead. No Ana discussion please. Mod warning post 1

glenfieldman · 23-05-2018 01:26PM

listermint wrote: »

Isnt the Nissan video from ages ago, possibly even last year. 171 ? brand new car.

I still wear clothes from a few years ago
I hate shopping so I just have clothes people get me for birthday or xmas

Strazdas · 23-05-2018 01:36PM

glenfieldman wrote: »

I still wear clothes from a few years ago
I hate shopping so I just have clothes people get me for birthday or xmas

Especially with men, they will often be seen wearing a t-shirt they were wearing a year or two ago (or even much longer). Women would be much more likely to keep changing their wardrobe.

TomOnBoard · 23-05-2018 01:38PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

You said it yourself. People online who dont know.

No I dont see it as insulting.

Think you missed my point.

Some with mental illness might be gentle and meek as a lamb others might have violent ideas and tendencies. Totally dependent on the individual and their circumstance.

Taking offence is just silly. Why?.
No one is saying all mental illness is the same. In fact Im saying the opposite.

Further to these comments is the point that someone who uses cocaine and/or some other narcotics run a risk of suffering from psychotic episodes.

_feedback_ · 23-05-2018 01:39PM

jiltloop wrote: »

Clearly in some cases it can be yes, I'm asking why people are so quick to attribute these acts with mental illness? Is this an easier outlook than accepting that there are some bad/evil people out there that are capable of these acts while not suffering from a mental health issue?

Far be it from me to question the mental health experts on the thread, but surely a person that is capable of carrying out a sickening act like this is clearly not of a normal sound mind. Surely, a "bad/evil" person does not have a healthy mind, and is therefore, almost by default suffering from a mental illness of some sort?

fullstop · 23-05-2018 01:40PM

Textronic wrote: »

Do the gardai have enough expertise to deal rapidly with these situations ?

A different situation but I recall a knife attacker was shot dead minutes after appearing on a London bridge.

How was he able to go out socializing that night?

So somebody running around on a Saturday night with a knife stabbing people in the middle of a city with 8 million people was found within minutes, but somebody who abducted someone on a lane out in the country and wasn't identified at that point wasn't found until they were able to get the full registration number later...have a think about that one.

I'm also assuming all the experts saying "why did those idiots shoot him in the head" will be retracting their idiotic ramblings in light of the information this morning.

Dinxminx · 23-05-2018 01:52PM

_feedback_ wrote: »

Far be it from me to question the mental health experts on the thread, but surely a person that is capable of carrying out a sickening act like this is clearly not of a normal sound mind. Surely, a "bad/evil" person does not have a healthy mind, and is therefore, almost by default suffering from a mental illness of some sort?

This is what I've always thought, but I've talked about it with a number of psychologists and medical people and the ones I spoke with all believed there was a distinct difference between 'bad' and 'mad.'

kingofclay · 23-05-2018 01:57PM

In the case of the Columbine massacre, the two shooters exhibit contrasting psychological states. One of them was inherently evil and beyond help while the other was driven mad who could have been helped and put on the right path. According to JBP anyway.

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 01:57PM

The Nal wrote: »

Possible I guess.

Being a bad/evil person and committing bad/evil acts is a mental illness.

I'm not sure I can agree with this at all to be honest. If this were to become the accepted opinion of the courts for instance would we then see people receiving psychiatric treatment instead of custodial sentences just because behaving like a bad/evil person=mentally ill?

DaveTheLad · 23-05-2018 02:01PM

kingofclay wrote: »

In the case of the Columbine massacre, the two shooters exhibit contrasting psychological states. One of them was inherently evil and beyond help while the other was driven mad who could have been helped and put on the right path. According to JBP anyway.

Without going off topic, thats not exactly true. They both had mad/bad traits but neither were beyond help at all. Theres way more to it than that

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:02PM

_feedback_ wrote: »

Far be it from me to question the mental health experts on the thread, but surely a person that is capable of carrying out a sickening act like this is clearly not of a normal sound mind. Surely, a "bad/evil" person does not have a healthy mind, and is therefore, almost by default suffering from a mental illness of some sort?

I disagree, bad acts can be committed by people who are mentally well. I think your stance is dangerous as it moves in the direction of treating rather than punishing criminals.

Some people are violent criminals because it is learned. They are not mentally unsound because they commit violent acts.

Case in point, members of the travelling communities are well documented as having much higher instances of violent crime convictions compared to the rest of the population. Do you believe that's attributable to mental health? Does that correlate with mental health studies in the travelling community?

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 02:04PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I'm not sure I can agree with this at all to be honest. If this were to become the accepted opinion of the courts for instance would we then see people receiving psychiatric treatment instead of custodial sentences just because behaving like a bad/evil person=mentally ill?

Take Graham Dwyer or Joe O Reilly for example . Both evil and bad but the courts ruled they were not mentally ill . Being bad and evil does not always point to mental illness

Or take a gang of young men attacking people or stabbing someone . They are not all mentally ill but are bad

optogirl · 23-05-2018 02:04PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I disagree, bad acts can be committed by people who are mentally well. I think your stance is dangerous as it moves in the direction of treating rather than punishing criminals.

Some people are violent criminals because it is learned. They are not mentally unsound because they commit violent acts.

Case in point, members of the travelling communities are well documented as having much higher instances of violent crime convictions compared to the rest of the population. Do you believe that's attributable to mental health? Does that correlate with mental health studies in the travelling community?

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

dbas · 23-05-2018 02:08PM

strandroad wrote: »

That's definitely a possibility, but no evidence so far.

I wouldn't touch the mental health card until there is clear evidence, out of respect for real mental health issues sufferers.

Most people with poor mental health are a danger to themselves, not others. This man murdered a young woman in cold blood, and the main displays of remorse shown were shown when he knew the game was up and gardai were after him and civil defence forces had tried to block him in in Killiney and he probably heard the details of the jeep released on the car radio. He scrawls a note on a sheet of paper in a car park and this is a display of remorse??

Self pity is all it is, not pity. He's pure scum and is exactly where he belongs

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:10PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

You said it yourself. People online who dont know.

No I dont see it as insulting.

Think you missed my point.

Some with mental illness might be gentle and meek as a lamb others might have violent ideas and tendencies. Totally dependent on the individual and their circumstance.

Taking offence is just silly. Why?.
No one is saying all mental illness is the same. In fact Im saying the opposite.

I think you've actually missed my point. I'm disagreeing with those on this thread who are implying that abduction and murder is exclusively a symptom of mental illness.

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 02:11PM

optogirl wrote: »

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

No it doesn't . Unless you can show that the same people who are violent and commiting crime subsequently commit suicide

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:14PM

optogirl wrote: »

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

I'm aware of that statistic but that would be more in relation to depression/suicide and so I'm not factoring that in to violent criminal tendencies. It's being implied on this thread by some that those tendencies must have a root cause in other mental illnesses such psychopathy.

I don't believe depressive or suicidal people have criminal tendencies in general (obviously there would be some exceptions).

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:16PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Take Graham Dwyer or Joe O Reilly for example . Both evil and bad but the courts ruled they were not mentally ill . Being bad and evil does not always point to mental illness

Or take a gang of young men attacking people or stabbing someone . They are not all mentally ill but are bad

Exactly, I presume you're agreeing with me?

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 02:16PM

jiltloop wrote: »

Exactly, I presume you're agreeing with me?

Yes ! I am

wexie · 23-05-2018 02:18PM

optogirl wrote: »

I think it does actually - much higher rates of suicide amongst travellers than the general population - 7 times higher

you're confusing correlation and causation.

Travellers also tend to have more children than settled people.

Should we draw the link between people who have more than average children and people who commit more than average crimes?

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:21PM

wexie wrote: »

you're confusing correlation and causation.

Travellers also tend to have more children than settled people.

Should we draw the link between people who have more than average children and people who commit more than average crimes?

In fairness to Optogirl I think she was just disputing a specific part of my post and not drawing any correlations herself.

Correct me if I'm wrong though!

The Nal · 23-05-2018 02:22PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I'm not sure I can agree with this at all to be honest. If this were to become the accepted opinion of the courts for instance would we then see people receiving psychiatric treatment instead of custodial sentences just because behaving like a bad/evil person=mentally ill?

I think theres a case that it should be done more. In Ireland, 45% of released prisoners re-offend within 3 years, 61% of that 45% within 6 months.

Wide variety of crimes granted but just chucking people in prison isn't particularly effective.

_feedback_ · 23-05-2018 02:22PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I disagree, bad acts can be committed by people who are mentally well. I think your stance is dangerous as it moves in the direction of treating rather than punishing criminals.

Some people are violent criminals because it is learned. They are not mentally unsound because they commit violent acts.

Case in point, members of the travelling communities are well documented as having much higher instances of violent crime convictions compared to the rest of the population. Do you believe that's attributable to mental health? Does that correlate with mental health studies in the travelling community?

Good point re the travelling communities. That is very much "learned" as you say..

I understand what you are saying too about the treating of criminals, rather than punishing, and I suppose maybe it is just the fact that most people cannot comprehend that people like this man, or Dwyer, or any murderer would be simply evil. What makes them evil? and what programmes their mind like that? I certainly find it hard to understand how they can be completely without mental illness while carrying out acts like they have. It's just mind boggling.

jiltloop · 23-05-2018 02:32PM

The Nal wrote: »

I think theres a case that it should be done more. In Ireland, 45% of released prisoners re-offend within 3 years, 61% of that 45% within 6 months.

Wide variety of crimes granted but just chucking people in prison isn't particularly effective.

I think prison sentences are far too lenient in this country and that is major factor as to why many prisoners reoffend. There's just no incentive not to if you're getting minimal sentences and of course less time in jail=more time to reoffend.

Also there's no guarantee that if (big if) their criminal behavior is attributable to mental illness, that treatment would be successful. It would also be a difficult pill to swallow (pardon the pun) for the victims or the victim's family if the perpetrator is receiving medical treatment rather than spending time in a proper prison environment.

The Nal · 23-05-2018 02:39PM

jiltloop wrote: »

I think prison sentences are far too lenient in this country and that is major factor as to why many prisoners reoffend. There's just no incentive not to if you're getting minimal sentences and of course less time in jail=more time to reoffend.

Also there's no guarantee that if (big if) their criminal behavior is attributable to mental illness, that treatment would be successful. It would also be a difficult pill to swallow (pardon the pun) for the victims or the victim's family if the perpetrator is receiving medical treatment rather than spending time in a proper prison environment.

Its a delicate one I agree yeah. But how many times have you seen rapists, murderers etc on the news who were "known to the police" and "had 45 previous convictions" and the like.

Longer terms sure but sometimes the line is not so fine between being a cúnt and being mentally ill in need of help. Help that would benefit society.

I've no issue with them being helped and then lobbed in jail.

sightband · 23-05-2018 02:48PM

i’ve followed this thread and said very little as the story was evolving, i can say even after a few days it’s clear as f*cking mud what happened. i’m just after reading in two different national papers that he was only shot once and then the other reported that he was shot in chest also.

it’s a big story, why can’t the garda press office issue some kind of statement especially to all those hacks writing through their holes....and please don’t respond with because it’s an ongoing investigation. the only one who knew anything about that full day seems to be dead.

martyoo · 23-05-2018 02:52PM

I think prison sentences are far too lenient in this country and that is major factor as to why many prisoners reoffend.

I'm not sure if I believe that. Sentences in the US are the very long compared to Ireland and they still reoffend at a very high rate.

iamwhoiam · 23-05-2018 02:56PM

sightband wrote: »

i’ve followed this thread and said very little as the story was evolving, i can say even after a few days it’s clear as f*cking mud what happened. i’m just after reading in two different national papers that he was only shot once and then the other reported that he was shot in chest also.

it’s a big story, why can’t the garda press office issue some kind of statement especially to all those hacks writing through their holes....and please don’t respond with because it’s an ongoing investigation. the only one who knew anything about that full day seems to be dead.

Can I just ask why you seem to think we are all entitled to every detail of a murder enquiry ?

23-05-2018 03:03PM

martyoo wrote: »

I'm not sure if I believe that. Sentences in the US are the very long compared to Ireland and they still reoffend at a very high rate.

But at least as you suggest from the sentencing they will be away from society for a long time. I would edit NOT want to see people go away for a long time for one/first off minor offences unless they had racked up so many that it was clear they weren't being rehabilitated by a system that just lets them off with a rap on the knuckles.

TomOnBoard · 23-05-2018 03:29PM

Ther have been lots of useful views given in the preceding posts dealing with a range of perspectives on mental illness, mad vs bad, cultural predispositions and a few others. I'm going back to Hennessy's heinous act. We all should want to know what set this off, and I'm sure that we will hear lots of background information on him and his character, his actions and activities, and indeed whether or not he may have been involved in previous crimes. Some of that information will tell us things about him that were inherent in his make-up, that contributed to his appalling attack. Some of that information will also tell us things about him that came from his use/abuse of drugs/alcohol. It's that last piece we really need to know about. Why? Because IF that use/abuse contributed to a state of mind where he was not normal and became a monster- for however long that state existed - and in that state of mind he attacked, abducted and murdered an innocent young woman, we need to know!

We're now hearing about Hennessey buying coke on Saturday night in the pub, shortly after the murder, and returning for more some hours later. The Gardai are investigating an alleged contact with him in an agitated state on Killiney Beach on Sunday, and later a super-aggressive stance prior to him being shot. He is alleged to have ended up banging on the front door of a stranger's house some weeks ago and when confronted, was described as being 'wired'. All of this behaviour (and that's only the few bits that have been reported) is surely abnormal and is very typical of someone who is using cocaine or amphetamines or other stimulants. And that's my focus here.

He's dead, and many would say good riddance, although most of us would also be sad for his family, if we have any sadness left to spare from our far deeper feelings for Jastine and her family. IF this tragedy has resulted wholly or partly from drug abuse, then it may educate us further on the deep and evil risks associated with cocaine and other stimulant abuse. If we do learn from this, then perhaps some good can be extricated from the evil that was done. If we don't, how many more such dreadful murders will we see?

tretorn · 23-05-2018 03:35PM

Im wondering what sort of life his family had living with him.

I am glad he was shot dead, if he had killed one of my children it would kill me to think someone like that would live while my child was in a grave.

Thank God someone witnessed what he did because if he wasnt seen then Jastine could have disappeared and her parents would never have known what happened.

Jastine Valdez found dead. No Ana discussion please. Mod warning post 1

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