DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

ariana` · 17-05-2018 09:09AM

I'm a bit behind to welcome some of the new joiners - Adrian, Eoineo & orchidspretty - hi to you all

Adrian it's great to have another one with a marathon under the belt already on board. Hopefully it will be a better experience this time with sensible training and all the great advice, tips and encouragement you'll get on here over the coming months.

Eoineo, for sure it's not easy juggling small kids and work but it can be done

Running at lunch time is something a lot of people find works for them - (although if you're self employed maybe you don't get a lunch). Early morning running also suits some people and it's definitely a bit easier to get up early this time of year. I love that you're doing yoga! Have you thought about which plan you will follow - i think the NNH1 should suit you?

orchidspretty you've made amazing progress since the end of January, wow. It will be a big step up to the marathon and while i hate to squash anyone's dreams i think a sub-4 might be a little over ambitious this time but there is no reason you can't or won't do it (and maybe you'll even prove me wrong

). Have you tried to slow all the runs down so that you are comfortable running without taking walking breaks. 5km in 35 mins is 7mins/km, if you tried to run at 7:30mins/km for a start with to see how you find it? The challenge with the marathon is to run for longer, not faster

aloooof · 17-05-2018 09:47AM

I've been embracing the "slow it down" sentiments of the thread lately, got my easy runs down to 11 min/mile (whereas I was doing them around 10:25) and my pace run last night was around 9 min/mile pace, which is what I'm hoping to do the Cork Half Marathon in.

Question for the mentors tho. I've got a bit of a hectic weekend coming up and, with 11 miles Long Run on my training plan for the week, I'm considering doing it on Friday evening after work. I had my pace run last night, so they're a bit too close for my liking, but 2moro evening would be by far the easiest way for me to fit it in. Any advice welcome!

ariana` · 17-05-2018 10:02AM

aloooof wrote: »

I've been embracing the "slow it down" sentiments of the thread lately, got my easy runs down to 11 min/mile (whereas I was doing them around 10:25) and my pace run last night was around 9 min/mile pace, which is what I'm hoping to do the Cork Half Marathon in.

Question for the mentors tho. I've got a bit of a hectic weekend coming up and, with 11 miles Long Run on my training plan for the week, I'm considering doing it on Friday evening after work. I had my pace run last night, so they're a bit too close for my liking, but 2moro evening would be by far the easiest way for me to fit it in. Any advice welcome!

I think you should go for it tomorrow night. Sometimes plans have to be juggled to suit life. It's not excessively close to last night's run, i'm assuming today is a rest day then? Well done on slowing down the easy runs.

rxchxy · 17-05-2018 10:03AM

I'm a bit undecided here as to whether to enter DCM this year or leave it to next year. I'm currently training for Ironman 70.3 in Dun Laoghaire which is on August 19th so all my training is based around that. I would be fit but my run would probably be the weakest of the three disciplines for me. Just looking for some honest advice as to whether I would be attempting too much doing DCM this year as well

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
23mins 11secs 5km (April 2018)
48mins 02secs 10km (January 2018)
1hr 18min 13secs 10 miles (April 2018)

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
no

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Monday - 1hr swim, football training, 45min run at ~6min/km
Tuesday - 1hr swim, 2hr bike session on the turbo trainer
Wednesday - 1hr swim, football match
Thursday - 2hr bike session on the turbo trainer
Friday - 1hr swim
Saturday - LSR usually around 16-18 km
Sunday - 4hr hard bike, normally ~1700m climb

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Finish in a respectable time for what I am capable of doing. Under 4hrs really

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Can't really alter my plan too much before IM70.3.... don't know if I have enough time after to prepare adequately

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
That I won't do a time that I know I could do and will get discouraged

Why are you running this marathon?
I used to do all my runs as hard and as fast as I could and I ended up hating running. When I started training properly and running slower I enjoyed it a lot more so now I want to see what I'm really capable of.

I suppose my main concern is that I'm not running enough to do a time that I would be happy with. I'm probably relying on my general fitness to get me to the finish line...

whiskey_sour · 17-05-2018 10:05AM

With all this talk of pacing I'm just wondering is it absolutely necessary to time our runs?

I haven't been timing myself this year because previously I used to always find myself trying to beat yesterdays time etc. and overthinking/analysing every run. I downloaded strava this week and I've already had one run where I just couldn't resist and definitely pushed it harder than I usually would just to see where I'm at fitness wise (I haven't raced in over a year). I feel like I'll just slip back in to old habits if I use it all the time...is it ok to run by feel and just leave strava for the faster workouts?

aloooof · 17-05-2018 10:09AM

ariana` wrote: »

I think you should go for it tomorrow night. Sometimes plans have to be juggled to suit life. It's not excessively close to last night's run, i'm assuming today is a rest day then? Well done on slowing down the easy runs.

Yep, rest day today. It was supposed to be 3 miles but I'm going to move that to Sunday evening then. Cool, I'm gonna go for it! Now need to come up with a route that avoids Ed Sheeran the Phoenix Park.

Rossi7 · 17-05-2018 10:18AM

Hi whiskey_sour , I think it just comes down to discipline. I was like yourself at the start looking to break world records on every run but I use the watch now to slow down.
Some folk view use Strava purely to boost their own ego, they'll throw up a heading as "nice easy run" where in fact they were probably maxed out. At the end of the day your only out to better yourself, don't worry about what other people on this thread or Strava are doing. There will always be someone faster than you and me

ariana` · 17-05-2018 10:20AM

whiskey_sour wrote: »

With all this talk of pacing I'm just wondering is it absolutely necessary to time our runs?

I haven't been timing myself this year because previously I used to always find myself trying to beat yesterdays time etc. and overthinking/analysing every run. I downloaded strava this week and I've already had one run where I just couldn't resist and definitely pushed it harder than I usually would just to see where I'm at fitness wise (I haven't raced in over a year). I feel like I'll just slip back in to old habits if I use it all the time...is it ok to run by feel and just leave strava for the faster workouts?

Personally i think running by feel is great BUT it comes with a caveat - you would need to be experienced enough to know that you are running at the right effort level by feel. I certainly wouldn't trust myself yet...

Running slow and not racing the clock is a change in mindset for sure, you need to believe in it. It's the same principle i suppose as trust in the plan. You need to also trust in the pace(s) you're training at and the theory behind it. I assume you've read Safiri's post above, the last paragraph alone does it for me personally! If a previous winner of DCM was running some of his miles at 10:30min/m and went on to race DCM at 5:07 min/m...well there's not much more to say is there?!

ariana` · 17-05-2018 10:29AM

rxchxy wrote: »

I'm a bit undecided here as to whether to enter DCM this year or leave it to next year. I'm currently training for Ironman 70.3 in Dun Laoghaire which is on August 19th so all my training is based around that. I would be fit but my run would probably be the weakest of the three disciplines for me. Just looking for some honest advice as to whether I would be attempting too much doing DCM this year as well

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
23mins 11secs 5km (April 2018)
48mins 02secs 10km (January 2018)
1hr 18min 13secs 10 miles (April 2018)

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
no

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Monday - 1hr swim, football training, 45min run at ~6min/km
Tuesday - 1hr swim, 2hr bike session on the turbo trainer
Wednesday - 1hr swim, football match
Thursday - 2hr bike session on the turbo trainer
Friday - 1hr swim
Saturday - LSR usually around 16-18 km
Sunday - 4hr hard bike, normally ~1700m climb

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Finish in a respectable time for what I am capable of doing. Under 4hrs really

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Can't really alter my plan too much before IM70.3.... don't know if I have enough time after to prepare adequately

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
That I won't do a time that I know I could do and will get discouraged

Why are you running this marathon?
I used to do all my runs as hard and as fast as I could and I ended up hating running. When I started training properly and running slower I enjoyed it a lot more so now I want to see what I'm really capable of.

I suppose my main concern is that I'm not running enough to do a time that I would be happy with. I'm probably relying on my general fitness to get me to the finish line...

Hi. I'm not sure how qualified i am to advise you but i'll give it a shot... You are obviously very very fit. I personally would prefer 3 runs/wk at a minimum to attempt a marathon, could you sacrifice something else to get a 3rd run in (maybe football?). I would also question how competitive you are? If it's something you'd be happy to just get around then i'd say you could pull it off this year. If it's a case of you having an ambitious time goal then i think you'd be better of waiting until you can dedicate a block of time to train for it without distraction. There is a guy who posts on the Training Logs (Zico10) i think he goes by - if you sent him a PM he might advise you as he has a multi-sport background, there are possible others floating around here too.

whiskey_sour · 17-05-2018 10:43AM

Thanks Rossi and ariana, you're right it's a discipline issue! I completely agree and trust I should be running slow and have no problem running slow when I'm not tracking... I'm usually doing my 5k easy runs in 33-36 mins (just worked out by checking the clock before and after), but yesterday with strava I did it in 31. I just get carried away when I use these apps for some reason. I go out with the full intention to run slow but then if I see I ran my first mile in 10:30 I think...oh if I can keep this up I'll break my usual time. It's definitely not about other peoples times, my Strava is on private and I don't follow other people. Really need to work on forcing myself not to do this though...it's just like all common sense goes out the window when I can see my paces.

skyblue46 · 17-05-2018 11:02AM

whiskey_sour wrote: »

Thanks Rossi and ariana, you're right it's a discipline issue! I completely agree and trust I should be running slow and have no problem running slow when I'm not tracking... I'm usually doing my 5k easy runs in 33-36 mins (just worked out by checking the clock before and after), but yesterday with strava I did it in 31. I just get carried away when I use these apps for some reason. I go out with the full intention to run slow but then if I see I ran my first mile in 10:30 I think...oh if I can keep this up I'll break my usual time. It's definitely not about other peoples times, my Strava is on private and I don't follow other people. Really need to work on forcing myself not to do this though...it's just like all common sense goes out the window when I can see my paces.

Strava is a great tool when used properly, a curse when it's not. You are better to just discipline yourself to actually slow down when you see a 10:30 mile rather than to speed up. Perhaps you should join our Strava group here. Last year a lot of us found great benefit in that. Why you might ask? Because you'd be aware that a too fast run would be seen by fellow novices and mentors who would then give you a telling off. This would encourage people to do their runs sensibly. Believe me that as this little community grows you will become a very tight knit group and the opinions of others will matter to you.

whiskey_sour · 17-05-2018 12:24PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Strava is a great tool when used properly, a curse when it's not. You are better to just discipline yourself to actually slow down when you see a 10:30 mile rather than to speed up. Perhaps you should join our Strava group here. Last year a lot of us found great benefit in that. Why you might ask? Because you'd be aware that a too fast run would be seen by fellow novices and mentors who would then give you a telling off. This would encourage people to do their runs sensibly. Believe me that as this little community grows you will become a very tight knit group and the opinions of others will matter to you.

Thanks skyblue, the strava group is a great idea, some accountability should hopefully keep me in check!

On another note... I haven't been doing any speedwork yet since I havent been timing myself... Just plodding along by feel. Should I start incorporating some pace work at this stage or just wait until the plan kicks in?

Damo 2k9 · 17-05-2018 01:44PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Strava is a great tool when used properly, a curse when it's not. You are better to just discipline yourself to actually slow down when you see a 10:30 mile rather than to speed up. Perhaps you should join our Strava group here. Last year a lot of us found great benefit in that. Why you might ask? Because you'd be aware that a too fast run would be seen by fellow novices and mentors who would then give you a telling off. This would encourage people to do their runs sensibly. Believe me that as this little community grows you will become a very tight knit group and the opinions of others will matter to you.

This! I remember last year I went on one of my first long runs which was 7 miles (HHN1) and ran 2 miles to Parkrun, belted it as fast as I could and 2 miles home which I thought was grand because I ran for 7 miles.

Nope, the mentor noticed it and kindly posted in the thread the following week saying he had seen it and Long runs are supposed to be slow, not breaking Parkrun PB's

I was like the guys on here who couldnt slow down.

Big brother is watching! :cool:

skyblue46 · 17-05-2018 02:08PM

whiskey_sour wrote: »

Thanks skyblue, the strava group is a great idea, some accountability should hopefully keep me in check!

On another note... I haven't been doing any speedwork yet since I havent been timing myself... Just plodding along by feel. Should I start incorporating some pace work at this stage or just wait until the plan kicks in?

If I was you I'd just be building base miles between now and the start of the plan. Get tuned into proper easy running by doing it as much as possible.

whiskey_sour · 17-05-2018 03:00PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

If I was you I'd just be building base miles between now and the start of the plan. Get tuned into proper easy running by doing it as much as possible.

Thanks sky-blue! I was hoping you'd say that :D

coogy · 17-05-2018 03:26PM

Hi everyone,

just wondering if anyone is familiar with the Runner's World beginner marathon plan?

It's a 16 week schedule as compared to the Boards 18 week schedule. It was my intention to do the former but the Boards plan is definitely more appealing to me.
Only thing that's throwing me is the 'rest, cross or 3m recovery' days. I cycle to work every day (14k each way) and I was wondering if this would count for anything when doing the Boards plan?

Thanks!

brownbinman · 17-05-2018 03:45PM

Could someone explain the likes of these:
4m with 5 x 100m strides
1m w/u, 3m pace, 1m c/d
5m with 5 x hill sprints

Might do Boards plan,

cullenswood · 17-05-2018 03:50PM

brownbinman wrote: »

Could someone explain the likes of these:
4m with 5 x 100m strides
1m w/u, 3m pace, 1m c/d
5m with 5 x hill sprints

Might do Boards plan,

- A 4 mile run which include five 100m parts whereby you run in a much faster yet controlled fashion before reverting back to your original pace
- 1 mile easy warm up pace, 3 miles at marathon pace, and 1 mile back to easy pace
- As per the first one, except if you have easy access to a hill do some short runs up the hill, and easy back down.

Think that's right, and hope it makes sense.

brownbinman · 17-05-2018 03:54PM

cullenswood wrote: »

- A 4 mile run which include five 100m parts whereby you run in a much faster yet controlled fashion before reverting back to your original pace
- 1 mile easy warm up pace, 3 miles at marathon pace, and 1 mile back to easy pace
- As per the first one, except if you have easy access to a hill do some short runs up the hill, and easy back down.

Think that's right, and hope it makes sense.

Always had trouble understanding that. Would it be advisable to 100m parts at regular intervals, say at each 700-800m mark?

cullenswood · 17-05-2018 03:58PM

brownbinman wrote: »

Always had trouble understanding that. Would it be advisable to 100m parts at regular intervals, say at each 700-800m mark?

Yes sounds about right, or say about 5 min gaps between them, depending on easy pace.

skyblue46 · 17-05-2018 04:04PM

brownbinman wrote: »

Always had trouble understanding that. Would it be advisable to 100m parts at regular intervals, say at each 700-800m mark?

I always do them at the end of an easy run. 100m strides, jog slowly back to start and repeat.

A Hill sprint as mentioned on the Boards plan is a 10/12 second effort flat out on a steep hill. Concentrate on form. Last year a particular hill was mentioned as ideal. In the Phoenix Park if you stand at the bollards at the bottom of the Khyber looking up the road there is a track path directly to your right. Sprint from bottom to the top and walk back down. It is important that you make a full recovery between sprints even if it takes 2/3 minutes.

Kellygirl · 17-05-2018 04:04PM

coogy wrote: »

Hi everyone,

just wondering if anyone is familiar with the Runner's World beginner marathon plan?

It's a 16 week schedule as compared to the Boards 18 week schedule. It was my intention to do the former but the Boards plan is definitely more appealing to me.
Only thing that's throwing me is the 'rest, cross or 3m recovery' days. I cycle to work every day (14k each way) and I was wondering if this would count for anything when doing the Boards plan

Thanks!

Not familiar with it I’m afraid.

The cycle would count for cross training but if it’s something you do all the time anyway I’d just keep at it and do the rest of the plan and on those rest/cross/3m days do your cycle and leave it at that or run the 3 miles too if you like. I wouldn’t see it as a major issue.

brownbinman · 17-05-2018 04:06PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

I always do them at the end of an easy run. 100m strides, jog slowly back to start and repeat.

A Hill sprint as mentioned on the Boards plan is a 10/12 second effort flat out on a steep hill. Concentrate on form. Last year a particular hill was mentioned as ideal. In the Phoenix Park if you stand at the bollards at the bottom of the Khyber looking up the road there is a track path directly to your right. Sprint from bottom to the top and walk back down. It is important that you make a full recovery between sprints even if it takes 2/3 minutes.

Perfect, actually excited now I actually understand it. Might see you down park some day Sean!

...that sounded better in my head before I wrote it

skyblue46 · 17-05-2018 04:08PM

brownbinman wrote: »

Perfect, actually excited now I actually understand it. Might see you down park some day Sean!

...that sounded better in my head before I wrote it

https://www.runnersworld.com/ask-coach-jenny/how-to-run-strides

sumsar · 17-05-2018 06:02PM

whiskey_sour wrote: »

skyblue46 wrote: »

If I was you I'd just be building base miles between now and the start of the plan. Get tuned into proper easy running by doing it as much as possible.

Thanks sky-blue! I was hoping you'd say that :D

We both have pretty much the exact same stats and questions ha will be keeping an eye on you through this journey! Ha

Nice to see other people similar to myself

ahnoyouregrand · 17-05-2018 07:49PM

Just back from 10k at 6.13/hm pace. A little bit faster than i had planned as i built in strides for the first time and struggled to bring my pace all the way back down in between them. On the whole though i found it easier to run slower tonight. Might be difficult to start speeding up when i have to now!!ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Coffee Fulled Runner · 17-05-2018 08:13PM

cullenswood wrote: »

- A 4 mile run which include five 100m parts whereby you run in a much faster yet controlled fashion before reverting back to your original pace
- 1 mile easy warm up pace, 3 miles at marathon pace, and 1 mile back to easy pace
- As per the first one, except if you have easy access to a hill do some short runs up the hill, and easy back down.

Think that's right, and hope it makes sense.

Strides always at the end of the these types of runs too. Also you should do some strides after your drills before your workouts too. Make sure you're fully recovered after each stride so a very slow jog after each one, if you need to extend the recovery time then do it. While it's fast it's not flat out, maybe up to 90% effort. You have make sure it's fully controlled, focus on your running form.

Testosterscone · 17-05-2018 08:22PM

Safiri wrote: »

I'll start this off by saying that everyone is obsessed with speed when it comes to running. When people want to improve, all you hear is faster, intervals, tempos, speed endurance and 40 other different things. What most people don't understand is where speed mainly comes from in long distance running. If I asked every single one of you to go out and run a 200m sprint as fast as you can tomorrow morning; it would be at a much faster pace by a grand chasm than your marathon pace; common sense yes? Of course it is, what's this blithering idiot trying to say. For many of you and novice and even intermediate runners, the issue is not that you don't have the speed to run fast but it is that you don't have the endurance to hold a higher percentage of your max speed for a marathon. I'll give you a hypothetical here:

+1 on alot of what Safiri has said. Just to follow on from this on a point that is very often ignored/neglected/overlooked especially when it comes to speed work;

How fast you run is not actually as important as how you run it alot of the time.

By this I mean that many of us could bust a gut and do a really fast run or interval session but this doesn't necessarily translate to fitness improvements for racing always getting from A to B as quick as possible doesn't promote efficiency. Training is about improving fitness but also about becoming more efficient in your running. Energy conservation is usually has more of an impact on people than actual fitness. Majority of people here will be more that fit enough to do a marathon come October but many will fade or struggle because form is poor and they waste too much energy in the early stages.

Running at slower paces and within yourself in training allows you to practice good form and get your muscles working efficiently and reducing early fatigue onset and poor form.

As a therapist the busiest months of the year I have dealing with injuries tends to be September simply because far too many people run there hard runs too hard and fatigue very early on and form falters so much that the spend 8-10 miles of each long run with muscles that have fatigued and can't support good form. Unfortunately unlike cycling or swimming gravity takes over so even if form goes out the window then the foot is making contact with the ground whether it's with good or bad form. This is why the likes of runners knee, IT band issues and many other common injuries are associated with marathon runners so much.

This could be the difference between hitting the wall a 20 mile drop out and a glory leg sprint down Merrion Square come October.

bucketybuck · 17-05-2018 08:23PM

Does anybody take those protein powders/shakes after a long run? I heard it was useful to take one within 20 minutes of a workout but are they any use at all?

skyblue46 · 17-05-2018 08:27PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Does anybody take those protein powders/shakes after a long run? I heard it was useful to take one within 20 minutes of a workout but are they any use at all?

A carton of chocolate milk is every bit as good protein powders and a lot cheaper

DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

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