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So Sexton...

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    #62
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭crossman47


    irishfan9 wrote: »
    BOD/POC for their generation.

    Sexton/Murray for this generation.

    Ryan/? for the upcoming generation?

    And for the older generation, Mike Gibson - world class centre and out half. He was an integral part of the greatest Lions team ever.


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    #63
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    I've started to re-evaluate recently if he's surpassed BOD... He's close...
    Absolutely not. I'm a huge fan of Sexton's but he has played in better teams, while BOD was the better player. I also reckon when people look back too, that BOD's timing is going to hold him in good stead - you can pretty much link our resurgence to almost exactly when he stepped into the team. Though Sexton may well be going down as our second best ever, and surely our best out half despite it being one of our stronger positions historically. He is absolutely phenomenal and has been for a long time. Nothing against the guys we have at centre, but if only we had a time machine to bring back a 15 years younger BOD (and D'Arcy while we're at it) right now. :o

    I would put Murray up there but not quite on the same level but that's mainly because I don't view scrum half as being quite as important - the same could be said for center but BOD changed the whole way that position is played and made it much more relevant throughout the 80 minutes. Murray is a blessing though, he's been so consistently incredible since the moment he stepped out.

    Then you've got all these young lads coming through, particularly in the forwards but the likes of Stockdale too, that would have you wondering where they'll wind up in a proverbial by the end of their careers. Especially since the incoming generation (and the one in it's prime) strike me as being a good deal mentally stronger on top of being absolute physical specimens that we didn't always have in so many areas and with such depth before that; their trophy cabinets by 2030 for all we know could wind up dwarfing Sexton's too. Exciting times, indeed!


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    #64
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    O'Gara still has a record 1365 points in European rugby, 500 more than his closest rival.


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    #65
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    crossman47 wrote: »
    irishfan9 wrote: »
    BOD/POC for their generation.

    Sexton/Murray for this generation.

    Ryan/? for the upcoming generation?

    And for the older generation, Mike Gibson - world class centre and out half. He was an integral part of the greatest Lions team ever.


    If we are going into the best of their generation I would have sob in with Murray and Sexton. Mostly because I highly weight the biggest performances against the best opposition over club games etc.

    David Wallace deserves a merit but didn't do it as consistently for as long as bod and poc against the very best.


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    #66
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,798 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    O'Gara still has a record 1365 points in European rugby, 500 more than his closest rival.

    Ok. Good for him.


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    #67
    mangobob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭mangobob


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

    I agree completely with your point, but taking this line of thinking to its logical conclusion we really should disregard all talk of trophies and medals when evaluating players greatness. It seems to be standard practice to stack all of the shiny things a given player has won when making a case for his status in the pantheon. The argument that players only achieve what they do because of other players around them makes any statement about trophies and medals redundant to any GOAT debate.

    As for the latter, in my mind BOD remains in a class of his own. Sexton and POC, while absolute legends not only of Irish rugby but Irish sport, are just a notch below. In my mind, to qualify as the greatest the candidate needs to tick a range of boxes, including prodigious natural talent and eye catching skills, longevity, bravery, intelligence, physicality and leadership abilities. All 3 candidates have that. But for me what made BOD so special is that he was not just the best 13 to play for Ireland, he was imho the best centre I have ever seen full stop. I'm sure our antipodean friends here might beg to differ, but I honestly hand on heart believe that to be the case.

    I know this could get me killed here but while I certainly think Sexton is the best 10 in NH right now, he is not the best in the world at the moment and certainly not the best ever (that would be Carter for me). I love Johnny but BOD stands alone.


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Not sure this needs it's own thread but the two cents I will add is that this is the first season in a long time where Sexton has looked like he isn't carrying a few bad knocks. He's been relentless for Ireland and Leinster but the aggressiveness of his play I feel is in part down to him being back to a decent level of overall health.

    What a season though, he just wasn't settling for second best in anything he did.


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    #69
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    One thing I will say about half backs, is they are usually muck when they first play provincial senior rugby.

    I distinctly remember being unimpressed by all of Murray, Sexton, ogara and Jackson in their initial few games.

    I remember thinking Murray was a slow cumbersome passer for example but they iron out the wrinkles.

    It seems to take them a while to settle into the intensity and polish off their technique.( Like the best box kick in the world wasn't born over night)

    I would be fairly patient with the like of carbery until he has 20+ full games at 10 before I would judge him. It's a pity it's so hard for them to get game time.


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    #70
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,798 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Sexton does seem oddly under-rated in some ways. It is weird to look at the personal accolades (Player of the Year nominations) for him versus Owen Farrell for example. Was just looking through the Independent (UK) team of the tournament and the blurb on Sexton is below:
    Deserves to be mentioned alongside the Beauden Barretts and Owen Farrells when discussing the best players currently in the game. Excellent throughout the campaign in bringing his centres outside him into play, and while his kicking at times went awry, his play with the ball in hand was phenomenal.

    Deserves to be mentioned alongside Owen Farrell?? He pushed Farrell out to 12 on the last Lions tour because he is the better player.


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    #71
    Tom.D.BJJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    Sexton is the best first receiver in the game.

    Farrell is a cracking player too btw


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    #72
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    mangobob wrote: »
    I agree completely with your point, but taking this line of thinking to its logical conclusion we really should disregard all talk of trophies and medals when evaluating players greatness. It seems to be standard practice to stack all of the shiny things a given player has won when making a case for his status in the pantheon. The argument that players only achieve what they do because of other players around them makes any statement about trophies and medals redundant to any GOAT debate.

    Obviously comparing players is very subjective. And winning trophies will impact on people's perceptions. But in a team sport, where players are competing with varying levels of ability in their teammates, and not individually on a head-to-head basis, using silverware as a metric is the most simplistic and frankly, silly way to measure players' value.

    joseywhales wrote: »
    One thing I will say about half backs, is they are usually muck when they first play provincial senior rugby.

    I distinctly remember being unimpressed by all of Murray, Sexton, ogara and Jackson in their initial few games.

    I remember thinking Murray was a slow cumbersome passer for example but they iron out the wrinkles.

    It seems to take them a while to settle into the intensity and polish off their technique.( Like the best box kick in the world wasn't born over night)

    I would be fairly patient with the like of carbery until he has 20+ full games at 10 before I would judge him. It's a pity it's so hard for them to get game time.

    Indeed. IIRC in the 2008-09 season, earlier in the season before Contepomi got injured, Sexton was really struggling for form and indeed, was playing AIL at one stage. There are even posts and threads back then hoping he would be let go at the end of the season.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59280374


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    #73
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,798 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Indeed. IIRC in the 2008-09 season, earlier in the season before Contepomi got injured, Sexton was really struggling for form and indeed, was playing AIL at one stage. There are even posts and threads back then hoping he would be let go at the end of the season.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59280374
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I hope Sexton stays. Leinster played their most assured rugby with him at 10 last season. I don't think we would have done the double over Munster with any of the other options being put out.


    Not from me though :cool:


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    #74
    Sabre0001
    Registered Users Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    It's fun to read through old posts. Clamouring for Keatley to come in and Sexton to leave :D

    Best ever is tough to judge, I feel. The game, professionalism, our gameplan, and so much else has changed. Sexton has been magnificent for Leinster and Ireland, no doubt about it.

    🤪



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    #75
    justsomebloke
    Registered Users Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    Zzippy wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59280374

    We also had people who taught Isa couldn't play on the wing either

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59673221&postcount=106


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    #76
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Zzippy wrote: »
    using silverware as a metric is the most simplistic and frankly, silly way to measure players' value.

    Spot the Connacht fan! :pac:


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    #77
    Sonny678
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Sonny678


    My top 6 out halfs for Ireland. Im looking at ability , playing for Ireland and the lions. Its very hard to gauge players before 2000. Our record was very poor before 2000. We were bottom of the 5 nations for sucess. While Sexton and Rog played on the most sucessful Irish teams ever. Other out halfs had to play behind very unsuccessful packs and teams. If O Gara or Sexton had to play for Ireland in 90s or 50s 60s and most of 70s. They would have won no titles and playing on teams who wooden spoon contenders. So being the most sucessful with most trophies doesnt mean the greatest player. I think lions is a good sign how great players were. Lions you are seen as been the best in your position in 5 nations or 6 nations. All the great Irish out halfs played against New Zealand for the lions. So how one played v New Zealand for lions is a decent indication how good a player one was. With the lions Irish players before 2000 and after, but before 2000 were playing with sucessful players against great New Zealand and South Africa players, the best players in the world.

    So my top 6 Irish out half of all Time ( Its just my opinion)

    6 Tony Ward. For flair and natural ability you wouldnt get much better than Ward. But Campbell was number 1 and Ward was allot of time number 2. What should have happened Ward should have played at 15 with Campbell at 10. But instead we didnt see the best of Ward. But what we saw was a very gifted and talented number 10.

    5 Jack Kyle . One of the greats. Was instrumental to our first Grand Slam winning team. At the time considered the best out half in the game. And made a big impact with the lions. He is still a rugby legend, for many who remeber see him play he is the greatest of them all.

    4 Ronan O Gara. Again hes a legend. A great out half. We all know how great he was . Just I think Campbell was more consistent. O Gara wasnt number 1 for lions. Wilkinson was ahead. And Gilbson and Sexton were always number 1 for Lions. But O Gara was a warrior and he scored the greatest score in Irish sport along with Ray Houghton v England and Italy. Definatly one of the greats of modern era for Ireland , central to sucessful Munster teams also.

    3 Ollie Campbell He was just a kicking machine. Very consistent. And of all the players hes the won who single handly won Ireland a trophy eg Triple Crown in 83. A triple crown now looks kind of irrelevant but in 83 it was the first in over 30 years and Triple Crown was as big as grand slam now and was considered one of the grest Irish achievements sporting of that era. Campbells career was short and for the lions it was alright but he played on which wasnt a great lions teqm. But probaly the near perfect number 10. For consistency Campbell comes in at number 3

    2 Jonny Sexton. The most sucessful of all out halfs. World Class number 10. Central to Euro cups and Grand Slam sucess. And the number 1 choice for a sucessful lions team. Has all the ability to make a great number 10. And after Dan Carter has been best number ten of this decade.

    1 Mike Gibson. Its difficult becuase we have more footage of Sexton but a number of factors make Gibson number 1. He played on very unsucesful Irish teams a bad era for rugby but he was still considered a world class player and for some the best rugby player in the world at his peak. Would anyone give Sexton or O Gara that title at their peak. When he played out half he was a world class outhalf and when he played centre he was a world class centre. Many will tell u Gibson is Irelands greatest centre not Bod. Others will tell you he was an even better number 10. Any footage you see of him he was a very natural talent. Some say the perfect player.

    But its his achievements with the lions that really show how good he was. He was number 1 choice out half and centre in the greatest era for the lions on the greatest lions team ever. But it was what the All blacks say about him which stands out. To this day in New Zealand they still rave about his performances for lions v All Blacks. His performances are legendary in New Zealand.

    Gibson for many is considered the most all round greatest talented rugby player this country has ever had. In rugby and in New Zealand he is considered by many to be one of the greatest rugby players of all time. Sexton and O Gara while legends and greats wouldn't have that said about them. While Gibson is not known by some and some time forgotten. The truth is for ability, talent and all greatness , Gibson is hard to beat. The All blacks know a thing or two about rugby so if New Zealand rate him so higly, we should to.

    Theres something with Ulster that they produce great sporting talents eg Geogre Best Alex Higgins Rory Mcilroy. Gibson wouldnt be as famous as the above. But he had a touch of genius like the above that makes him stand apart.


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    #78
    Tom.D.BJJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    Sonny678 wrote: »

    So my top 6 Irish out half of all Time ( Its just my opinion)

    How many of the six has you seen play?


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    #79
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Buer wrote: »
    Spot the Connacht fan! :pac:

    Finlay Bealham has more Pro12 medals than Tadhg Furlong :p:p


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    #80
    Sonny678
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Sonny678


    Tom.D.BJJ wrote:
    How many of the six has you seen play?


    Inever saw Kyle play. But we cannot just confine greatness to what is just current. In soccer Messi and Ronaldo are considered all time greats. But so are Pele Maradona Cruyff Beckenbauer. Most of the greatest soccer players ever are before 2000. England greatest soccer players are Bobby Moore and Bobby Chartlon. The greatest heavyweight boxer of all time is Ali. Joe Lewis who fought in the 30s is considered one of the greatest also. No current heavyweight is considered in the league of Ali. Sugar Ray Robinson is considered pound for pound the greatest boxer of all time and he last fought in 1965. Very few saw Pele play. He played nearly all his career in the Brazilian league where there is very little footage. Yet to this day he is given the title as the greatest soccer player ever.


    Other sports recognise greatness in the last. Irish rughy has a long history and didnt just begin 2000. We havent had many great teams in the past but for our size we did sure produced some extraordinary talent before 2000 eg Gibson Kyle Campbell McBride Mullen Fitzgerald Slattery Kiernan Geoghan.


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    #81
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Surprised not to see David Humphrey's mentioned so far.

    If you take all three playing at their best it'd be Sexton, Humphey's, ROG for me.

    To describe why using the prism of Katy Perry song's, it's

    Sexton - Roar
    Hump - I kissed a girl
    ROG - Hot n Cold


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'll never forget that terrific goal Pelé scored against the Nazis.


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    #83
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Surprised not to see David Humphrey's mentioned so far.

    If you take all three playing at their best it'd be Sexton, Humphey's, ROG for me.

    To describe why using the prism of Katy Perry song's, it's

    Sexton - Roar
    Hump - I kissed a girl
    ROG - Hot n Cold

    Humphreys is incredibly underrated in Irish rugby. He was treated woefully by the Irish management and deserved more from his career. If he had been a few years younger, he'd have enjoyed the benefit of playing alongside a far better team at his peak. Alas, he was almost 30 by the time the likes of Easterby, Horgan, Stringer etc. even made their debut and well past his peak by the time that team had gelled.


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    #84
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,314 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I never saw Kyle, but I have seen the rest of your 6. Gibson was probably the best Irish player I've ever seen. Ward and Campbell were brilliant and in today's game would be prolific imo.


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    #85
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Ok. Good for him.

    It is good for him.


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    #86
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,608 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Johnny is still no. 1 - Gibson was mainly centre - What Johnny Sexton has won is way more than Campbell or Ward - he is a more complete out-half than ROG , given his size and what he offers defensivly - My big fear is he will get injured before Japan , we will then realise how irreplaceble he is , even more so than Murray. I think if he had played fully fit at last WC we would have beaten Pumas.


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    #87
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,523 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    thebaz wrote: »
    Johnny is still no. 1 - Gibson was mainly centre - What Johnny Sexton has won is way more than Campbell or Ward - he is a more complete out-half than ROG , given his size and what he offers defensivly - My big fear is he will get injured before Japan , we will then realise how irreplaceble he is , even more so than Murray. I think if he had played fully fit at last WC we would have beaten Pumas.
    What he has won is pretty irrelevant in this discussion.


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    #88
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Stephen Donald won a Rugby World Cup. Clearly an elite all time great.


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    #89
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,608 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    awec wrote: »
    What he has won is pretty irrelevant in this discussion.

    in your opinion - I'd say it is relevant - he has a will to win more than most


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    #90
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,523 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    thebaz wrote: »
    in your opinion - I'd say it is relevant - he has a will to win more than most
    All the medals show is that Sexton is a very good player who has played in a very good team.

    Medals are a terrible barometer when comparing individual players ability though.


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    #91
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,798 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    awec wrote: »
    All the medals show is that Sexton is a very good player who has played in a very good team.

    Medals are a terrible barometer when comparing individual players ability though.

    I would agree that taken in isolation they are a pretty awful barometer.

    That said, Sexton's personal contribution to a number of the victories has been incredibly high and that is worth noting I think.


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