So Sexton...

Squidgy Black

thebaz wrote: »

in your opinion - I'd say it is relevant - he has a will to win more than most

Ian Madigan has 2 champions cup medals, 2 Pro12 medals.

Medals don't indicate how good a player is, just that they were part of a good team.

thebaz

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Ian Madigan has 2 champions cup medals, 2 Pro12 medals.

Medals don't indicate how good a player is, just that they were part of a good team.

What has ian madigan got to do with what i said - in fact what i said is that if johnny had played instead of madigan we might have reached a WC semi - medals arnt a complete barometer - but nealy all top players i know have won something , if they havnt , dont think they can be considered great.

J Mysterio

CatFromHue wrote: »

Surprised not to see David Humphrey's mentioned so far.

If you take all three playing at their best it'd be Sexton, Humphey's, ROG for me.

To describe why using the prism of Katy Perry song's, it's

Sexton - Roar
Hump - I kissed a girl
ROG - Hot n Cold

Humphreys better than O'Gara!!!
O'Gara 'hot n cold'!!

Podge_irl

thebaz wrote: »

What has ian madigan got to do with what i said - in fact what i said is that if johnny had played instead of madigan we might have reached a WC semi - medals arnt a complete barometer - but nealy all top players i know have won something , if they havnt , dont think they can be considered great.

BOD was fairly medal-less til 09...

J Mysterio

Bears repeating I think

Most Points European Rugby

1 - Ronan O'Gara - Munster - 1365
2 - Stephen Jones - Llanelli, Clermont, Scarlets - 869
3 - Dimitri Yachvili - Biarritz - 661
4 - Diego Domínguez - Milan, Stade Français - 645
5 - David Humphreys - Ulster - 564
6 - Neil Jenkins - Pontypridd, Cardiff, Celtic W. - 502
7 - David Skrela - Colomiers, Stade Français, Toulouse, Clermont - 500
8 - Dan Parks - Glasgow, Cardiff, Connacht - 479
9 - Felipe Contepomi - Bristol, Leinster, Toulon - 441
10 - Jean-Baptiste Élissalde - Toulouse

thebaz

Podge_irl wrote: »

BOD was fairly medal-less til 09...

bar a few triple crowns and celtic leagues - and a schools cup and i think an U20s WC - and I'm sure a few other things - and he won a fair bit after

J Mysterio

Most Points International Rugby

1 - Dan Carter - New Zealand - 1598
2 - Jonny Wilkinson - England/ Lions 1246 
3 - Neil Jenkins Wales/ Lions - 1090
4 - Ronan O'Gara - Ireland/ Lions - 1083
5 - Diego Dominguez - Italy/ Argentina - 1010
6 - Stephen Jones Wales/ Lions - 970
7 - Andrew Mehrtens - New Zealand - 967
8 - Michael Lynagh - Australia - 911
9 - Percy Montgomery - South Africa - 893
10 - Matt Burke - Australia - 878

Podge_irl

thebaz wrote: »

bar a few triple crowns and celtic leagues - and a schools cup and i think an U20s WC - and I'm sure a few other things - and he won a fair bit after

While I was happy enough with them at the time, a triple crown isn't a "medal" in any way shape or form really.

He did win plenty afterwards. But a common argument against his credentials at the time were that he had not actually won anything. And the argument made no more sense then than it does now.

Bridge93

Sergio Parisse only has 3 winners medals in his career, one of which was 12 years ago and another a challenge cup. He's considered one of the greats

Billy86

J Mysterio wrote: »

Most Points International Rugby

1 - Dan Carter - New Zealand - 1598
2 - Jonny Wilkinson - England/ Lions 1246 
3 - Neil Jenkins Wales/ Lions - 1090
4 - Ronan O'Gara - Ireland/ Lions - 1083
5 - Diego Dominguez - Italy/ Argentina - 1010
6 - Stephen Jones Wales/ Lions - 970
7 - Andrew Mehrtens - New Zealand - 967
8 - Michael Lynagh - Australia - 911
9 - Percy Montgomery - South Africa - 893
10 - Matt Burke - Australia - 878

Interestingly, Sexton averages more points per game than O'Gara at international level (9.4 vs 8.5) while O'Gara averages more in the European Cup (9.9 vs 12.4), though the latter may come from having a more rounded game and Leinster also playing the ball among the backs more often

Former Former

J Mysterio wrote: »

Most Points International Rugby

1 - Dan Carter - New Zealand - 1598
2 - Jonny Wilkinson - England/ Lions 1246 
3 - Neil Jenkins Wales/ Lions - 1090
4 - Ronan O'Gara - Ireland/ Lions - 1083
5 - Diego Dominguez - Italy/ Argentina - 1010
6 - Stephen Jones Wales/ Lions - 970
7 - Andrew Mehrtens - New Zealand - 967
8 - Michael Lynagh - Australia - 911
9 - Percy Montgomery - South Africa - 893
10 - Matt Burke - Australia - 878

Finally! For years I've been saying Stephen Jones was better than Michael Lynagh but no one believed me. Thanks for this.

Buer

BOD was fairly medal-less til 09...

And it was used as a stick to beat him with regularly.

I don't think you can judge a player by their medals but it's absolutely an indication of their quality. Players aren't great because they were in a great team. The team is great because those players make up the team.

We can talk about guys like Madigan or whoever but he never started a HEC final. When you see someone who has started 4 finals and won all of them then it's generally a pretty good indication that the player in question is top quality.

Of course there will be outliers like Parisse but if a player has a rake of medals over their careers a starter, you can be almost certain they're top class and a key reason those medals were won.

I can’t keep up with the moving goal posts here. Points are good-points are bad, medals are good-medals are bad, player I’ve never seen play is better than a player I’ve seen play loads. My head hurts with the amount people will move the goal posts to suit their own agenda and arguments.

How on Earth can two leagues, five European trophies. Three 6 nations (one being a grandslam) and one win and one drawn Lions tour not indicate at some level that Sexton is the best fly half Ireland has ever produced. Irrespective of the many different teams he has played in, after all it is a team sport, how can they not be the metric we use to show how good he is ?

What metric do we use then ? You can’t use points purely because o’Gara Played in an era when really poor teams were allowed play in the H cup and routinely each season a decent cricket score was posted at least once if not twice in the group stage. I’m not saying O’Gara wasnt really really really good, he was, but Sexton as one of the main play makers has driven several completely different teams to the highest honours. He obviously hasn’t done this on his own but O’Gara gets the same metric, he got to play behind very good Munster and Ireland teams but Sexton has gone far further in less time and games.

CJay1

J Mysterio wrote: »

Bears repeating I think

Most Points European Rugby

1 - Ronan O'Gara - Munster - 13652-
2 - Stephen Jones - Llanelli, Clermont, Scarlets - 8693
3 - Dimitri Yachvili - Biarritz - 6614
4 - Diego Domínguez - Milan, Stade Français - 6455
5 - David Humphreys - Ulster - 5646
6 - Neil Jenkins - Pontypridd, Cardiff, Celtic W. - 5027
7 - David Skrela - Colomiers, Stade Français, Toulouse, Clermont - 5008
8 - Dan Parks - Glasgow, Cardiff, Connacht - 4799
9 - Felipe Contepomi - Bristol, Leinster, Toulon - 4410
10 - Jean-Baptiste Élissalde - Toulouse

That table looks wrong. No Sexton or Farrell?

Paul Smeenus

Deleted User wrote: »

I can’t keep up with the moving goal posts here. Points are good-points are bad, medals are good-medals are bad, player I’ve never seen play is better than a player I’ve seen play loads. My head hurts with the amount people will move the goal posts to suit their own agenda and arguments.

How on Earth can two leagues, five European trophies. Three 6 nations (one being a grandslam) and one win and one drawn Lions tour not indicate at some level that Sexton is the best fly half Ireland has ever produced. Irrespective of the many different teams he has played in, after all it is a team sport, how can they not be the metric we use to show how good he is ?

What metric do we use then ? You can’t use points purely because o’Gara Played in an era when really poor teams were allowed play in the H cup and routinely each season a decent cricket score was posted at least once if not twice in the group stage. I’m not saying O’Gara wasnt really really really good, he was, but Sexton as one of the main play makers has driven several completely different teams to the highest honours. He obviously hasn’t done this on his own but O’Gara gets the same metric, he got to play behind very good Munster and Ireland teams but Sexton has gone far further in less time and games.

It's almost as if there is no comprehensive, Excel-friendly means of determining who the best outhalf we've produced is. That can't be right, surely.

Elvisjuice

thebaz wrote: »

Johnny is still no. 1 - Gibson was mainly centre - What Johnny Sexton has won is way more than Campbell or Ward - he is a more complete out-half than ROG , given his size and what he offers defensivly - My big fear is he will get injured before Japan , we will then realise how irreplaceble he is , even more so than Murray. I think if he had played fully fit at last WC we would have beaten Pumas.

no way would we have beaten them with sexton , they blew us away

Buer

Elvisjuice wrote: »

no way would we have beaten them with sexton , they blew us away

Either Sexton or Payne would have made a huge difference. People forget we had a kick to draw level well into the second half before capitulating late on. It was a one score game with 10 mins left.

Elvisjuice

Buer wrote: »

Either Sexton or Payne would have made a huge difference. People forget we had a kick to draw level well into the second half before capitulating late on. It was a one score game with 10 mins left.

na we were like the walking dead , argies were the far better team on the day

Dubinusa

Can't really compare era's but, I saw lots of players in the amateur era that would have been great pros.
I say that because they stood out on the field and were clearly better than anyone else. JPR William's, Garrett Edward's, willie Duggan, moss Keane, slattery, rivers and plenty of others. Naas Botha was another. But for me, mike Gibson was the most talented Irish player I've seen.

Buer

Elvisjuice wrote: »

na we were like the walking dead , argies were the far better team on the day

That's me told.

thebaz

Elvisjuice wrote: »

no way would we have beaten them with sexton , they blew us away

if Sexton was fit i believe we would - we were also missing 5 other senior players including captain - look where that great young Argentina team is today - with Sexton playing in the last 2 WC quaters I certainlty think we would have had a better chance of winning possibly both. Madigan is too erratic as a 10 , which showed up last WC - brilliant against France, and average at best against Pumas.

Elvisjuice

Buer wrote: »

That's me told.

big time

Elvisjuice

thebaz wrote: »

if Sexton was fit i believe we would - we were also missing 5 other senior players including captain - look where that great young Argentina team is today - with Sexton playing in the last 2 WC quaters I certainlty think we would have had a better chance of winning possibly both. Madigan is too erratic as a 10 , which showed up last WC - brilliant against France, and average at best against Pumas.

yep missing 5 other players is the main point of why we lost , we were never going to win that with so many key players missing.

Interested Observer

Elvisjuice wrote: »

yep missing 5 other players is the main point of why we lost , we were never going to win that with so many key players missing.

Yeah agree with this. It wasn't just Sexton, it was Payne, POC, SOB and POM too.

MayoSalmon

judeboy101 wrote:

The fact he chose money over country and legged it to France, no matter how briefly, will always taint him in my eyes.

Troll obviously

errlloyd

Sexton and Kearney seem to have the same almost coach like leadership. I heard someone describe Sexton as like having Schmidt on the field with you. He just seems to drive standards, boss people, make good decisions and take responsibility. Now ROG could tactically kick better I think, but Sexton can work a back line more. Ireland and Leinster use much more intricate back manoeuvres than other teams because of it.

Where he excels over ROG is in defense. Over the last few years Sexton has ruined his body tackling like a demon, and winning turnovers through choke tackles etc. 2017 6 nations, he didn't miss a kick or a tackle.

The last thing I'd ask if people can remember Sexy ever having a proper melt in a game? Scarlets last year maybe he had a stinker. I think other players have had bigger career meltdowns though.

Burkie1203

Elvisjuice wrote: »

na we were like the walking dead , argies were the far better team on the day

Our midfield defence was All over the shop in the first 10 or 15 minutes. Having Sexton or Payne would have made a massive difference

players were spent from chasing for an hour before argies pulled away.

Burkie1203

Podge_irl wrote: »

BOD was fairly medal-less til 09...

Until Sexton came along. Mid way through the first half in Croker.

Faugheen

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

BOD was fairly medal-less til 09...

Until Sexton came along. Mid way through the first half in Croker.

Just to be pedantic, BOD had won a Grand Slam by then

*hides*

bilston

J Mysterio wrote: »

Bears repeating I think

Most Points European Rugby

1 - Ronan O'Gara - Munster - 13652-
2 - Stephen Jones - Llanelli, Clermont, Scarlets - 8693
3 - Dimitri Yachvili - Biarritz - 6614
4 - Diego Domínguez - Milan, Stade Français - 6455
5 - David Humphreys - Ulster - 5646
6 - Neil Jenkins - Pontypridd, Cardiff, Celtic W. - 5027
7 - David Skrela - Colomiers, Stade Français, Toulouse, Clermont - 5008
8 - Dan Parks - Glasgow, Cardiff, Connacht - 4799
9 - Felipe Contepomi - Bristol, Leinster, Toulon - 4410
10 - Jean-Baptiste Élissalde - Toulouse

Well that decides it! At approximately 136 points per match ROG is by far the best ever!