So Sexton...

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

And it was used as a stick to beat him with regularly.

I don't think you can judge a player by their medals but it's absolutely an indication of their quality. Players aren't great because they were in a great team. The team is great because those players make up the team.

Which was nonsense.

You are correct of course that a player doesn't end up on multiple winning teams by accident. But BOD was the prime example of a player far better than the team around him deserved. I guess the conclusion is that it is not an "if and only if" relationship - if you are on multiple winning teams it certainly says something about you, but if you are not then it may not say anything at all.

Podge_irl

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Our midfield defence was All over the shop in the first 10 or 15 minutes. Having Sexton or Payne would have made a massive difference

players were spent from chasing for an hour before argies pulled away.

The midfield defence lost that match. Ireland were defending narrowly all tournament but a combination of SOB in the backrow and Sexton/Payne in midfield meant the ball didn't get out wide quickly. They were the absolute worst three players to lose.

Don't think Sexton alone would have been enough but he would have given Ireland a shot for sure. I'm not always sure we realise how good he is - he plays the game that the team he has around him needs to play.

J Mysterio

bilston wrote: »

Well that decides it! At approximately 136 points per match ROG is by far the best ever!

Table updated. He is one of the best ever, that's indisputable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Rugby_Champions_Cup/
-> Player records

Sonny678

Just because you say Gibson is better doesn't anyway take away from the greatness of Jonny Sexton. Its like an Argentine saying Maradona is greater then Messi. Messi is still great and so is Sexton. The amout of medals won is important but it cannot be the sole baramoeter to judge greatness. Theres a soccer player leaving Celtic at the moment called Patrick Roberts. Hes being on loan from Man City for years. He is one of the most sucessful Celtic players of all time. He happened to play for them just as Celtic was starting to dominate. He now is in the top ten most sucessful Celtic players of all time with leagues and cups and other trophies. Yet I doubt he would get in the top 100 Celtic footballers ever. Most Medals won = doesnt necessary means the greatest.

For me there is a couple of factors why Gibson is king. Some dont even know who he is. We have very little footage of Gibson compared to Sexton, Sexton every match has nearly been recorded. Pele has very little footage exception of a few World cup matchs yet he is described from Afria to Europe as the greatest soccer player.

Gibson at his peak was considered to be the best rugby player of his era. Is Sexton the greatest rugby player of his era is O Gara?. Wilkinson was probably a better player then O Gara. And I think everyone would agree Carter is better outhalf then Sexton.

Gibson is considered by many to be best player of any era.When Gibson toured with the lions. And Gibson was on 5 different lions tours. In 1968 to South Africa and 1971 to New Zealand he played out half and in the centre. He played in 4 different positions for Ireland eg out half centre full back and scrum half. He was considered a world class player in two positions eg out half and centre.
The performances with lions in late 60s early 70s were outstanding. He played on probaly the best back line ever with Edwards ,John's, JPR Willians on the greatest lions team ever and probaly the greatest rugby team ever from the northern hemisphere, the lions team of early 70s. Yet on a team of all time greats ,Gibson stood out. Even til this day New Zealand fans say Gibson, his performances for the lions was the best by a touring player ever to New Zealand. Jonny was brillant last year for the lions but I dont think New Zealand fans would say it was the best ever.

When Gibson played out half, people have said he as good as any player in that position in any era. When Gibson played in the centre he was good a centre as any player in any era.Any Irish rugby fan who has been a supporter since 1960s who saw Sexton O Connell O Driscoll, they all say that Gibson was the greatest Irish rugby player ever.
Only O Connell and O Driscoll at their peak could be described as the best player in the world. Gibson was considered the best at a time when there was so many all time greats.

Yet Gibson played in an unsuccessful periods for Irish rugby. We were what Italy is now. We couldnt beat the English in Twickenham for over a decade and we couldnt beat the Welsh in Cardiff in the 70s. Only a year or two in early 70s, the vast majority of 60s and 70s when Gibson was a player the Irish rugby team was playing for wooden spoons. Ireland won 4 wooden spoons in the 60s .They won 3 wooden spoons in a row in the 60s. Yet somehow Gibson shone. Would Sexton or O Gara being as good if they played in the 90s or 60s with poor Irish teams. We will never know but they would have been probably great also. But Gibson was just not great he is considered by so many to the best.

Sexton played with brillant teams and brillant players who were sucessful eg leinster Lions and Ireland teams. When he went to Racing he played with a team that was struggling. Sexton struggled. In France he was considered not a sucess with Racing. Gibson had to play with struggling Irish teams all his career. It so hard to compare. And I know Johnny never settled in France. And its been ultra critical bringing up the Racing period. But if he is the best ever we have to say Gibson did play with struggling teams all the time and still shone.

It like this Sexton is a great great player, one of the best we ever produced. But is he the greatest. A comparsion for me is keane and Best Roy Keane was so sucessful with Man Utd and won medal after medal. Yet George Best who retired at 27 , had some sucess but much less compared to keane. When people around the world talk about the greatest players of all time they mention Best not Keane. In New Zealand when they talk about the best players ever they mention Gibson not Sexton. Gibson and Best had a touch of genius. Best was the most naturally talented soccer player from Great Britain and Ireland ever in many peoples eyes. . Gibson was the most naturally talented rugby player from great britian and Ireland in many people's eyes. Gibson will alway be the greatest for me.

Dubinusa

And me too. He was phenomenal. Ireland back then only had 3 or 4 players that were really good. The rest were average. During the early 70's McBride and Gibson were head and shoulders above the rest. At the tail end of their careers Slattery and Duggan came along and they were better than their teammates.
The Welch team of the 70's was one of the best sides I've ever seen. Top quality in almost every position. It is difficult to measure era to era and yes Sexton is unbelievable but Ward and Campbell were unbelievable too.

Interested Observer

J Mysterio wrote: »

Table updated. He is one of the best ever, that's indisputable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Rugby_Champions_Cup/
-> Player records

He was a very good goal kicker and he played a lot of matches. Sexton is clearly a much better all round player and he's achieved far more in the game that ROG did as a player.

lawred2

J Mysterio wrote: »

Bears repeating I think

Most Points European Rugby

1 - Ronan O'Gara - Munster - 1365
2 - Stephen Jones - Llanelli, Clermont, Scarlets - 869
3 - Dimitri Yachvili - Biarritz - 661
4 - Diego Domínguez - Milan, Stade Français - 645
5 - David Humphreys - Ulster - 564
6 - Neil Jenkins - Pontypridd, Cardiff, Celtic W. - 502
7 - David Skrela - Colomiers, Stade Français, Toulouse, Clermont - 500
8 - Dan Parks - Glasgow, Cardiff, Connacht - 479
9 - Felipe Contepomi - Bristol, Leinster, Toulon - 441
10 - Jean-Baptiste Élissalde - Toulouse

I miss those days

Billy86

With all due respect to Gibson, I don't know that I've ever seen him referred to as his era's greatest player which is typically bestowed on Gareth Edwards. The best of his era in his position quite possibly, though that same honour is true of O'Driscoll.

Dubinusa

Right, Gareth Edwards was the best player of that time imo. He may be the best 9 ever.
Gibson was class at 12 and 15 and was very good on the wings. Kind of like Earl's and Fitzgerald but better. He could play anywhere. On some teamsheets if he played 15, you felt that the midfield was weakened. If he was moved to the back 3, you were not losing anything. Serge Blanco was a superstar after Gibsons time and I'd rate them as equals. But, that's only an elderly fat jackeens opinion.

Sonny678

Dubinusa wrote:

Right, Gareth Edwards was the best player of that time imo. He may be the best 9 ever. Gibson was class at 12 and 15 and was very good on the wings. Kind of like Earl's and Fitzgerald but better. He could play anywhere. On some teamsheets if he played 15, you felt that the midfield was weakened. If he was moved to the back 3, you were not losing anything. Serge Blanco was a superstar after Gibsons time and I'd rate them as equals. But, that's only an elderly fat jackeens opinion.

Earls and Fitzgerald are nowhere as good as Gibson. It would be like comparing Robbie Keane or John O Shea to Cruyff in soccer terms. I have never heard anyone call Earls or Fitzgerald Irelands greatest player, Fitzgerald at times found it hard to become a first team regular for Ireland. And Earls had a great season last year but his form. But he has never been first choice for the lions. Always a good indication of how great a player is in any era. Until Earls and Fitzgerald go on two lions tour and in New Zealand the public there describe theyre performances as the best they have ever saw from a touring player . Then and only then they can be considered anywhere close to Gibson. Gibson was a different class.

Blanco would be on the level of Gibson. Thats a player more similar to Gibson. Both genuine all time greats of the game. Both could be described as the best players ever from the countries they represented eg Ireland and France.

Sonny678

Billy86 wrote:

With all due respect to Gibson, I don't know that I've ever seen him referred to as his era's greatest player which is typically bestowed on Gareth Edwards. The best of his era in his position quite possibly, though that same honour is true of O'Driscoll.

Sucessful teams are always associated with eras. And so then are theyre players. When people talk about 70s soccer they mention Cruyff and Beckenbauer. The Dutch and Germans were the most famous and sucessful teams of that era. They become associated with that era. Johnny Giles was a world class player in the 70s. Best midfielder of his generation in England in the 70s. Yet he came from little old Ireland who had very little sucess, so he wouldnt be recognised that much.

The Welsh are associated with 70s. Every year any home nations you will hear the great 70s Welsh team mentioned, more then any other team from amateur era. Deservedly so a great team. They arrived on the scene when the first rugby games were in colour on the TV. So they stand out in people minds allot. And Edwards was a truly great player with a truly great team. Edwards played with a team in an era where Wales won Grand Slam after Grand Slam. Gibson debuted with Ireland in the 60s , in the 60s Ireland won 4 wooden spoons. Of course Welsh players and team are more talked about.

The fact is Gibson was a world class out half and centre . Gibson as all round talent very few better him. When he was playing out half he was as good as any out half from any era. The same when he played centre. When Gibson played for the lions it was Gibson not Edward JPR or Johns that was described by the New Zealand public as best touring player ever, it was Gibson who got the plaudits. Yes Edwards and JPR were great players but for Gibson was for me a better all round talent who just happened play for a very poor team. It would be like someone from Italy now would find it hard to get recognition. But you ask people in the know and they will tell you will find very few players equal to Gibsons talent. Edwards is up there. But for me Gibson was a better all round talent. Again thats only my opinion. We are talking two of the greatest players of all time. Both were special talents.

Billy86

The thing is, in 'all time' lists you can be about dead certain that Edwards will feature in the top 3 while I don't think Gibson ever has been in any since. An incredible player sure, arguably Ireland's best ever (I would give that to BOD but to each their own) but I've seen Edwards listed higher on' greatest lions of all time' lists more often than Gibson.

Its not a knock to him as Edwards is for many the greatest to ever play the game in any position, but there won't be many outside of Ireland putting Gibson as their best player of that era over him in my opinion.

Dubinusa

Not saying Earl's or Fitzgerald are in Gibsons class! Not even close. Gibson was equal to Edward's except Edward's had a better supporting cast. My point was that Gibson could play anywhere and we'd lose nothing. Same with Willie Jon. Another world class player, but by today's standard he would be too small to play 2nd row.

Sonny678

Dubinusa wrote:

Not saying Earl's or Fitzgerald are in Gibsons class! Not even close. Gibson was equal to Edward's except Edward's had a better supporting cast. My point was that Gibson could play anywhere and we'd lose nothing. Same with Willie Jon. Another world class player, but by today's standard he would be too small to play 2nd row.

Thats fair enough. Sorry about that.

Sonny678

Billy86 wrote:

The thing is, in 'all time' lists you can be about dead certain that Edwards will feature in the top 3 while I don't think Gibson ever has been in any since. An incredible player sure, arguably Ireland's best ever (I would give that to BOD but to each their own) but I've seen Edwards listed higher on' greatest lions of all time' lists more often than Gibson.

Billy86 wrote:

Its not a knock to him as Edwards is for many the greatest to ever play the game in any position, but there won't be many outside of Ireland putting Gibson as their best player of that era over him in my opinion.

I know Edwards gets in the the top three of lists, its like Pele is always in the top 3 in soccer. But some people think Maradona was a better player others will say Messi some even would say Cruyff. The Welsh team of 70s was a great team. As the chap said above Edwards had a better support he was surrounded by all time greats he was playing in one of the greatest teams ever. Gibson was playing in a team at best similar to Scotland recently and at times Ireland in the 60s and 70s were similar to Italy now. But when Gibson played on the lions with these great players he stood out. Again when he went to New Zealand and South Africa the lions they were raving about his performances. Particularly in New Zealand who said his performances were the best of any touring player. In lists made in mostly are in Uk I have seen top players ever, Gibson is not as famous or as well. He doesn't get the recognition as much as Welsh team of 70s. Even in Ireland he is not celebrated as he should be. But you ask individual people who saw him play and ex players Gibson is described as greatest Irish player and one of the greats of any era. . Only O Driscoll and maybe O Connell of the current generation would be up there with Gibson. The vast majority who saw both play nearly always place Gibson number 1 Irish player ever. Its like An Argentine choosing between Messi and Maradona in soccer. But Gibson was a better all around player then BOD. Gibson was world class in different positions. O Driscoll would need to be as good a out half and even probaly a better out half as Sexton as well as being a World class centre . Then he would be as good as Gibson.If anyone calls O Driscoll Irelands greatest player , they have a great case. There are few greater then O Driscoll . For me theres only one and thats Gibson. But thats just my opinion.