So Sexton...

Faugheen

Zzippy wrote: »

irishfan9 wrote: »

needs to lead munster to a trophy or two.

Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

2011 Heineken Cup final has called..

Sexton literally won that game all by himself.

Faugheen

Zzippy wrote: »

irishfan9 wrote: »

needs to lead munster to a trophy or two.

Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

2011 Heineken Cup final has called..

Sexton literally won that game all by himself.

Neil3030

Zzippy wrote: »

Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

A t-shirt with "Leinster by accident of birth" doesn't quite have the same ring to it :pac:

ClanofLams

Faugheen wrote: »

2011 Heineken Cup final has called..

Sexton literally won that game all by himself.

Did he go out himself against the 15 Northampton boys he did? Some going!!

Burkie1203

Zzippy wrote: »

Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

Munster biggest problem has been a lack of top class 10. Leinster have won 4 European cups with 9s who wouldn't be considered top class. If sexton played at 10 for Munster v Racing I think they win that game.

A top class 10 is more important then a top class 9 IMO.

Faugheen

ClanofLams wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

2011 Heineken Cup final has called..

Sexton literally won that game all by himself.

Did he go out himself against the 15 Northampton boys he did? Some going!!

Well considering he scored more points than Northampton...

You can be as smart as you want but you'll still look foolish.

Zzippy

Faugheen wrote: »

2011 Heineken Cup final has called..

Sexton literally won that game all by himself.

Literally? Some man for one man. Did he win all the scrums too?

Burkie1203

Zzippy wrote: »

Literally? Some man for one man. Did he win all the scrums too?

Yes. He was at LH. Isa was at TH. But Isa was rubbish in first half so they swapped.

Faugheen

Some right smart holes here haven't we?

Leinster don't win that game without Sexton. How does that sound?

Zzippy

Faugheen wrote: »

Some right smart holes here haven't we?

Leinster don't win that game without Sexton. How does that sound?

That's more accurate, literally. And less of the personal abuse, thanks.

Faugheen

Zzippy wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Some right smart holes here haven't we?

Leinster don't win that game without Sexton. How does that sound?

That's more accurate, literally. And less of the personal abuse, thanks.

You knew exactly what I was trying to say in that post but you decided to poke a little bit for a reaction anyway. Don't be surprised if you get one.

ClanofLams

Faugheen wrote: »

Well considering he scored more points than Northampton...

You can be as smart as you want but you'll still look foolish.

Aye I'm fierce embarrassed alright.

Considering the original point made was about the need for a great team and how one player alone won't win anything, you might go off and examine the Leinster 2011 squad and come back and tell us if Murray has ever been fortunate enough to have such calibre around him. Otherwise your attempted rebuttal of the original point is irrelevant.

Faugheen

ClanofLams wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Well considering he scored more points than Northampton...

You can be as smart as you want but you'll still look foolish.

Aye I'm fierce embarrassed alright.

Considering the original point made was about the need for a great team and how one player alone won't win anything, you might go off and examine the Leinster 2011 squad and come back and tell us if Murray has ever been fortunate enough to have such calibre around him. Otherwise your attempted rebuttal of the original point is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant at all.

Fact of the matter is, if Sexton wasn't playing then Leinster, with a team containing O'Driscoll, Nacewa, Hines, O'Brien, Heaslip, D'Arcy and a whole host of internationals, would not have won that game, never mind from 22-6 down at half time.

28 of Leinster's 33 points were scored by Sexton that day. That Leinster side for all the quality that it had still needed Sexton and his performance was the winning of the game.

So yes, Sexton did win that game for Leinster. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.

Annabella1

Think when we talk about ‘world class’ player must have delivered for lions on world stage
Hold your hand up JS

ClanofLams

Faugheen wrote: »

It's not irrelevant at all.

Fact of the matter is, if Sexton wasn't playing then Leinster, with a team containing O'Driscoll, Nacewa, Hines, O'Brien, Heaslip, D'Arcy and a whole host of internationals, would not have won that game, never mind from 22-6 down at half time.

28 of Leinster's 33 points were scored by Sexton that day. That Leinster side for all the quality that it had still needed Sexton and his performance was the winning of the game.

So yes, Sexton did win that game for Leinster. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.

It's entirely irrelevant. The point was that great players don't win trophies on their own. If they did Jonny Wilkinson would have led Newcastle Falcons to a European cup.

Sexton was the best player on the park in that final but that has nothing to do with the point you were attempting to rebut.

This is not a diss on Sexton, world class player that Leinster and Ireland have been fortunate to have.

Burkie1203

Look at European finals in last 12 years

Sexton x 4
Farrell x 2
Wilkinson x3
RoG x2

Steve

wandatowell wrote: »

What was the reasoning behind that?

uberwolf wrote: »

I've seen reference to a tweaked groin.

Curious that this has been a semi regular occurrence, Murray stepping in for him a few times

Yeah, I heard he tweaked his groin (which unfortunately seems to be a recurring problem for him) so made the right call there.

hullaballoo

This place is worse than being in court.

"Sexton was crucial in the 2011 final for the Leinster win." Not that controversial a statement.

"Sexton literally won that game all by himself." Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war.

Clegg

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Zzippy wrote: »

Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

Munster biggest problem has been a lack of top class 10. Leinster have won 4 European cups with 9s who wouldn't be considered top class. If sexton played at 10 for Munster v Racing I think they win that game.

A top class 10 is more important then a top class 9 IMO.

I think the top class 10 thing isn't Munster's biggest problem. You can get by without a world class player provided the right structures are in place. And that's where Munster fall down. They've no actual attacking pattern. We've seen Leinster have great success breaking the gain line then using pull back dummy passes to get the ball wide quickly. They make great yards through the middle and out wide.

Munster don't do that. In fact I'm not sure what they're actually trying to achieve in attack. They've some supremely talented outside backs and seem to be putting all the impetus on them to create something from nothing. And let's face it. Despite having some very good players their pack is nothing special. They don't have the level of quality to beat the big boys.

Zzippy

hullaballoo wrote: »

This place is worse than being in court.

"Sexton was crucial in the 2011 final for the Leinster win." Not that controversial a statement.

"Sexton literally won that game all by himself." Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war.

Another one missing the point. No one is disputing Sexton is a great player. One person asserted Conor Murrary wasn't in that league because he hadn't achieved success with Munster. Completely missing the point that rugby is a team game and that without his Leinster teammates Sexton wouldn't have achieved that success*. Someone else missed the point altogether and took grave offence to it, as if it was a slight on Sexton.

Some very touchy people around here tonight.



*and also conveniently ignoring the success Murray has enjoyed with Ireland and the Lions.

Steve

Faugheen wrote: »

It's not irrelevant at all.

Fact of the matter is, if Sexton wasn't playing then Leinster, with a team containing O'Driscoll, Nacewa, Hines, O'Brien, Heaslip, D'Arcy and a whole host of internationals, would not have won that game, never mind from 22-6 down at half time.

28 of Leinster's 33 points were scored by Sexton that day. That Leinster side for all the quality that it had still needed Sexton and his performance was the winning of the game.

So yes, Sexton did win that game for Leinster. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.

You are correct.

I watched the 2013 match against the saints a few days ago where Leinster won 40-7, you could say the same thing about BOD for that match.

Every dog has his day...

thebaz

Neil3030 wrote: »

A t-shirt with "Leinster by accident of birth" doesn't quite have the same ring to it :pac:

Think Johnny actually grew up supporting Munster and Kerry - think his dad actually played for Munster.

and agree Murray is world class - hopefully we can keep the best half backs together for Japan -

Podge_irl

Lists of trophies can certainly provide some flavour to the argument, but I would agree that they should actually be fairly far down the pecking order. I mean, I like Toner, but he doesn't exactly bestride the game like a colossus and he has as many trophies as Sexton. It's a lazy argument.

But also, yes, Sexton is Ireland's greatest flyhalf of the pro era and stands alongside BOD/POC as greatest players full stop.

irishfan9

BOD/POC for their generation.

Sexton/Murray for this generation.

Ryan/? for the upcoming generation?

Buer

Zzippy wrote: »

Utter rubbish. If he was playing in that Leinster team he'd be there. Being surrounded by great players like Sexton is is purely an accident of birth. If Sexton was born in Munster he would likely have a pretty bare trophy cabinet. It's a team sport, not an individual one. Sexton didn't win those trophies on his own.

If Sexton was born in Munster they'd have won trophies in the past 7 years.

But Murray is world class, no doubt. I'm not sure he has achieved enough within the game to have the almost mythical status that BOD/POC have which Sexton is now being attributed also by some. Moments like the 2011 HEC final and the drop goal in Paris give a player an aura that elevates them in the minds of many.

irishfan9

Buer wrote: »

If Sexton was born in Munster they'd have won trophies in the past 7 years.

But Murray is world class, no doubt. I'm not sure he has achieved enough within the game to have the almost mythical status that BOD/POC have which Sexton is now being attributed also by some. Moments like the 2011 HEC final and the drop goal in Paris give a player an aura that elevates them in the minds of many.

which is what I was saying, Murray reaches top tier when he has some top tier moments in red like POC had and BOD/Sexton in blue.

Zzippy

irishfan9 wrote: »

which is what I was saying, Murray reaches top tier when he has some top tier moments in red like POC had and BOD/Sexton in blue.

irishfan9 wrote: »

needs to lead munster to a trophy or two.

First it was win a trophy or two, now it's top tier moments. And provinces count only, never mind beating the All Blacks with Ireland and the Lions, where he was pivotal, or winning a grand slam, where he was also pivotal. Oh no, that was all down to Sexton I suppose... your whole premise cvompletely ignores the fact that rugby is a team game and without a good team around you, no player is going to win trophies. Trophies as a metric is idiotic.

hullaballoo

I have to apologise to the mods here for my post last night that I've now deleted. It was totally unfounded and unfair and a result of a few too many shandies.

ec18

Strictly speaking Isa is the best Irish out half he won the final for them

irishfan9

ec18 wrote: »

Strictly speaking Isa is the best Irish out half he won the final for them