The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78 · 25-04-2018 6:00pm #1

Long time lurker but first time poster here.As the title suggests. A thread for anyone trying to break 4hrs in the Marathon.
I've had two rather unsuccessful Marathons already. Dublin 2014 and Dublin 2016.
I had no business running Dublin 2014 as I'd only finished couch to 5k at the start of that year after never running before. I got roped into it by a charity that I'm involved in and felt I couldn't say no, but I really wasn't ready for it.
I struggled around in just under 5hrs and didn't enjoy any of it.
2016 was a bit better and I was better prepared and my main goal was to enjoy it. I hadn't much of a base going into Marathon training but I did all the training and came home in 4:25 but more importantly for me anyway was I enjoyed the whole experience from start to finish.
I decided there and then at the finish line though that I wasn't going to do or train for another Marathon until I had a decent base behind me. The next Marathon I did I wanted to give it a proper go.
Since the end of Dublin 2016 I've kept a consistent enough milage of between 25-30miles a week. With various tempo runs and intervals thrown in and a long run when I can.
I haven't done any races since apart from park runs( which I know aren't races) but as a measure of progress my 5km time has dropped from 26 minutes and a bit down to 22:04.
My aim is obviously to go sub 4 in the Dublin Marathon this October.
I haven't decided on a training plan yet but have been reading Hanson's Marathon method book recently.
I realise I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but with being almost 40, and alot of my time taken up with being self employed and having 3 kids under the age of 6 I feel a sub 4hr would be a good achievement for me personally.
Would be interested in hearing from anyone else hoping to go Sub 4hr for the first time also.
Doesn't have to be just the Dublin Marathon either.
Thanks.

HankSchrader · 25-04-2018 8:15pm

The very best of luck! I too am aiming for a first sub 4hr marathon. Ran my first marathon Dublin 2016, 4:11. 2017 4:17. Plan to do Cork City Half the June BH as motivation to get me back running! Will also sign up for Dublin again this year, that will be my sub 4hr aim.

I'm now back running 4 times a week. This time I'm doing interval training each week as I did f-all last year. Gotta get some hill sprints in also. You have a nice base. Might be no harm to do cross training and believe it or not Yoga!! I did a few sessions with herself and enjoyed it mainly because of the stretching.

TFBubendorfer · 25-04-2018 9:17pm

Best tip I can give you, any anyone else, is to buy this book, read it from cover to cover and start training:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Marathoning-Peter-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600

It worked for me, and a lot of other runners. When someone talks about P&D, this is what they're talking about.

Kellygirl · 25-04-2018 9:31pm

Ooh, I’ll join in. Hoping to go sub 4 this year. Did my first 3 marathons last year in 2017. Started with Cork, injured and limped around in 4:49:55. Did Dublin in 4:20 and had a bit more to give really. Did Clonakilty then for the laugh 6 weeks later but walked a lot of it due to my knee going at mile 10. Still did 4:45 though.

Been training well for Cork in June. Had been aiming at 4:10 and then hoping for sub 4 in DCM. A recent 5 mile indicates I’ve gotten faster though and I’m racing Limerick Half Sunday week and then hopefully that will give me some indication whether I can consider sub 4 in Cork.

I have been following Hal Higdon Marathon 3 as a training plan. I can only run 3-4 days a week so that’s why I chose that plan.

ewc78 · 25-04-2018 9:39pm

HankSchrader wrote: »

The very best of luck! I too am aiming for a first sub 4hr marathon. Ran my first marathon Dublin 2016, 4:11. 2017 4:17. Plan to do Cork City Half the June BH as motivation to get me back running! Will also sign up for Dublin again this year, that will be my sub 4hr aim.

I'm now back running 4 times a week. This time I'm doing interval training each week as I did f-all last year. Gotta get some hill sprints in also. You have a nice base. Might be no harm to do cross training and believe it or not Yoga!! I did a few sessions with herself and enjoyed it mainly because of the stretching.

And the very best of luck to you also!
Was hoping someone would reply!
Hopefully we can support each other and anyone else that joins the thread that is looking to go sub 4.
I'm not so sure about me doing Yoga though!. The wife does Pilates and loves it but I'm not sure I'd like it.

ewc78 · 25-04-2018 9:39pm

Kellygirl wrote: »

Ooh, I’ll join in. Hoping to go sub 4 this year. Did my first 3 marathons last year in 2017. Started with Cork, injured and limped around in 4:49:55. Did Dublin in 4:20 and had a bit more to give really. Did Clonakilty then for the laugh 6 weeks later but walked a lot of it due to my knee going at mile 10. Still did 4:45 though.

Been training well for Cork in June. Had been aiming at 4:10 and then hoping for sub 4 in DCM. A recent 5 mile indicates I’ve gotten faster though and I’m racing Limerick Half Sunday week and then hopefully that will give me some indication whether I can consider sub 4 in Cork.

I have been following Hal Higdon Marathon 3 as a training plan. I can only run 3-4 days a week so that’s why I chose that plan.

Hello kellygirl. Good to see I'm not on my own!

ariana` · 26-04-2018 9:42am

Ooooh can i join in! I did my first & only marathon in Dublin last yr - trained with 4:20 in the back of my mind but a knee issue 3 weeks out put paid to any time goal. I started behind the 4:40 pace group, lost sight of them, caught up to them again at 22 miles iirc and ultimately finished in 4:37 - delighted with that, i wouldn't change a second of it. I'm going to do Dublin again this year - i doubt i'll be going for sub 4hr as it's a bit of a big leap from 4:37 BUT the ultimate goal is definitely 3:59:59. So i'll be following this thread with interest.

Kellygirl · 26-04-2018 12:47pm

ariana` wrote: »

Ooooh can i join in! I did my first & only marathon in Dublin last yr - trained with 4:20 in the back of my mind but a knee issue 3 weeks out put paid to any time goal. I started behind the 4:40 pace group, lost sight of them, caught up to them again at 22 miles iirc and ultimately finished in 4:37 - delighted with that, i wouldn't change a second of it. I'm going to do Dublin again this year - i doubt i'll be going for sub 4hr as it's a bit of a big leap from 4:37 BUT the ultimate goal is definitely 3:59:59. So i'll be following this thread with interest.

I beg to differ! It’s only a big leap because you were injured last year. You would have had a very similar race to me if not slightly faster if that hadn’t happened so I don’t think the 4:37 is your real time.

Griff75 · 26-04-2018 1:15pm

Going to follow this thread with interest too. Have done Dublin twice - once in 4.05 and once in a much more painful and less enjoyable 4.16. Both are 5/6 years ago and since then have done nothing farther than HM distance. Like a lot of posters here life, work and 3 little kids has gotten in the way since! Presently running 3 times a week but will up that to 4 or 5 by June. Ran the Raheny 5 mile in January in 37.19 but haven’t decided on a plan to follow yet.

Kellygirl · 26-04-2018 1:21pm

Griff75 wrote: »

Going to follow this thread with interest too. Have done Dublin twice - once in 4.05 and once in a much more painful and less enjoyable 4.16. Both are 5/6 years ago and since then have done nothing farther than HM distance. Like a lot of posters here life, work and 3 little kids has gotten in the way since! Presently running 3 times a week but will up that to 4 or 5 by June. Ran the Raheny 5 mile in January in 37.19 but haven’t decided on a plan to follow yet.

That’s a brilliant 5 mile time so bodes well for you. Have you done any distance running in the last few years? As in 10 mile or HM? The Novices thread for Dublin will be starting up soon I’d say so might suit you to train with everybody else?

eyrie · 26-04-2018 1:41pm

Great thread! I have yet to run a marathon at all. Hoping to do my first one this year and my only concern then will be completing it with as little pain/struggle as possible, but if I manage that I'll certainly be hoping to give sub 4 a go in the future. So I'll be very interested to hear how you and everyone else joining in gets on! Good luck with it!

Griff75 · 26-04-2018 3:34pm

Kellygirl wrote: »

That’s a brilliant 5 mile time so bodes well for you. Have you done any distance running in the last few years? As in 10 mile or HM? The Novices thread for Dublin will be starting up soon I’d say so might suit you to train with everybody else?

I did the 10 mile in the Park last year but nothing beyond that distance in the last 2-3 years! Will definitely follow the novice thread

ISOP · 27-04-2018 12:37pm

I'll sign in too! This is a massive goal for me, like most of ye, life is busy and it is difficult to dedicate hours to doing the mileage required, however I am making headway. I have ran a good few marathons in around 4:17 -4:20 Concentrated on training a bit more recently and managed 4:13 in Connemarra last Sunday and felt that if it was a normal flatish city marathon I would nearly have cracked it. My problem is stamina, (half PB is 1:44) which I am finding can be built up with strength training and of course long runs (which I hate!)

ariana` · 27-04-2018 2:08pm

ISOP wrote: »

I'll sign in too! This is a massive goal for me, like most of ye, life is busy and it is difficult to dedicate hours to doing the mileage required, however I am making headway. I have ran a good few marathons in around 4:17 -4:20 Concentrated on training a bit more recently and managed 4:13 in Connemarra last Sunday and felt that if it was a normal flatish city marathon I would nearly have cracked it. My problem is stamina, (half PB is 1:44) which I am finding can be built up with strength training and of course long runs (which I hate!)

Based on the 2 items highlighted i'd say sub-4 is definitely on the cards for you in DCM if you can find a plan that suits you and stick with it.

ISOP · 27-04-2018 5:12pm

ariana` wrote: »

Based on the 2 items highlighted i'd say sub-4 is definitely on the cards for you in DCM if you can find a plan that suits you and stick with it.

Cheers, I am targeting Chicago this year for the sub 4 as I was lucky enough to get in, need to lose about 4 kilos aswell

Kellygirl · 27-04-2018 7:49pm

ISOP wrote: »

I'll sign in too! This is a massive goal for me, like most of ye, life is busy and it is difficult to dedicate hours to doing the mileage required, however I am making headway. I have ran a good few marathons in around 4:17 -4:20 Concentrated on training a bit more recently and managed 4:13 in Connemarra last Sunday and felt that if it was a normal flatish city marathon I would nearly have cracked it. My problem is stamina, (half PB is 1:44) which I am finding can be built up with strength training and of course long runs (which I hate!)

I saw the elevation profile for Connemara and looked really tough. I’d definitely say you’ll break sub 4 no problem at all if you do a flattish one.

skyblue46 · 27-04-2018 10:22pm

Just to throw my tuppence worth in here. A few of you are in a perfect position to do a 3:59 marathon. Mr 1:44 half marathon, I was 1:48 this time last year. Mr 5 mile, I was 38:27 a year ago. I ended up doing DCM in 3:47. Consistent easy miles are your friend. Build them up gradually. Train consistently. There are no silver bullets.
To my 2 fellow 2017 novices....you both have it in you, no doubt.

skyblue46 · 27-04-2018 10:30pm

eyrie wrote: »

Great thread! I have yet to run a marathon at all. Hoping to do my first one this year and my only concern then will be completing it with as little pain/struggle as possible, but if I manage that I'll certainly be hoping to give sub 4 a go in the future. So I'll be very interested to hear how you and everyone else joining in gets on! Good luck with it!

You will break 4 hours in DCM this year...without too much pain or struggle. Believe and it will happen! Oh and you have to train too!

sgal · 28-04-2018 11:13am

Great idea for a thread. I've DCM 2016 and 17 behind me. 2016 training started with 4hours in mind but once reality set in 4.30 became the goal and finished in 4.25 and enjoyed the whole thing. 2017 training went much better but I was doing all my training too fast and injury struck at the start of September and from then I struggled and plodded round in 4.40, which considering how little running in did in September and October I was happy with but the injury hassle and effort on the day put me off running entirely and I've only got the interest back in the last month. I've signed up for Dublin again and dream of a sub 4 hour! I think the last number of month's inactivity since last October have killed whatever base I've built previously. I'll follow your progress with interest best of luck as it's a big milestone to reach!

The Black Oil · 01-05-2018 10:23pm

Yeah, me too. Good idea for a thread, thanks. Just did Connemarathon and took it handy, non-stressful, to 4:30:46, really just to get a feel for the course and have fun. DCM 2018 will be my third spin at that particular race. Went out with the 4:10s last year and finished in 4:11:31 (down from 4:17:23, my 2016 debut). Maybe it's too much to hope to lop 10+ minutes off of that. I can look back on Garmin and see where I struggled and hope not to do that again, though hope alone doesn't seem like enough.

Plan will be either the graduates (link here) or meno. Need to study the latter a to get a good sense of breaking it down.

ariana` · 02-05-2018 9:56am

ISOP wrote: »

Cheers, I am targeting Chicago this year for the sub 4 as I was lucky enough to get in, need to lose about 4 kilos aswell

I love Chicago, i've been about 7-8 times at this stage. I'm not trying to scare you in any way but I was there last year the week before the marathon and the weather was amazing, unseasonably warm so i'd bare that in mind and try to train in warm weather (if we get any :rolleyes:) this Summer - just in case! I will definitely do that one some time so i'll be very interested to see how you get on. Best of luck

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just to throw my tuppence worth in here. A few of you are in a perfect position to do a 3:59 marathon. Mr 1:44 half marathon, I was 1:48 this time last year. Mr 5 mile, I was 38:27 a year ago. I ended up doing DCM in 3:47. Consistent easy miles are your friend. Build them up gradually. Train consistently. There are no silver bullets.
To my 2 fellow 2017 novices....you both have it in you, no doubt.

Thanks S

ISOP · 02-05-2018 10:21am

Doing Limerick on Sunday, going to rattle off 9:05 miles as long as I can manage it, realistically I will be happy with 4:05

eyrie · 02-05-2018 12:06pm

ISOP wrote: »

Doing Limerick on Sunday, going to rattle off 9:05 miles as long as I can manage it, realistically I will be happy with 4:05

Good luck! That would be a super time to achieve. Hope it goes really well for you.

The Black Oil · 03-05-2018 9:48pm

Out tonight to see how the legs are after Conn. ~ 32 minutes, very easy at 12:45. 2.57 miles. Seem fine. Base plan next week.

Edit, might do a bit longer on Sunday. Haven't decided...

ewc78 · 03-05-2018 10:14pm

Delighted to see people posting on the thread. I was worried when I started it nobody would post on it!.

Had to settle for the treadmill myself tonight. I have one at home and don't actually mind using it.
Did 8km in 39mins so happy with that. Gonna to a longish slow run after work tomrrow.

Kellygirl · 03-05-2018 10:50pm

ewc78 wrote: »

Delighted to see people posting on the thread. I was worried when I started it nobody would post on it!.

Had to settle for the treadmill myself tonight. I have one at home and don't actually mind using it.
Did 8km in 39mins so happy with that. Gonna to a longish slow run after work tomrrow.

I have a treadmill too and wish I liked it. I would need to be tied to it to keep me on it!

The Black Oil · 04-05-2018 9:37pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just to throw my tuppence worth in here. A few of you are in a perfect position to do a 3:59 marathon. Mr 1:44 half marathon, I was 1:48 this time last year. Mr 5 mile, I was 38:27 a year ago. I ended up doing DCM in 3:47. Consistent easy miles are your friend. Build them up gradually. Train consistently. There are no silver bullets.
To my 2 fellow 2017 novices....you both have it in you, no doubt.

You're right about there being no silver bullets - experience and training teaches that. I'm not sure consistency is enough, though.

Murph_D · 04-05-2018 10:29pm

ewc78 wrote: »

Delighted to see people posting on the thread. I was worried when I started it nobody would post on it!.

Had to settle for the treadmill myself tonight. I have one at home and don't actually mind using it.
Did 8km in 39mins so happy with that. Gonna to a longish slow run after work tomrrow.

8k in 39 mins is a very fast run for a 4-hour marathoner.

Can I ask what the point of this session was? Did you warm up before, and cool down after this run, which is probably not far off your 10k pace? Or was some of it faster than the 4:53 average?

Don’t get me wrong - it’s a very good session if the point of it was a long tempo run, but if you’re not doing these runs in a structured way (sppedwork, tempo, easy, long etc) you could well just end up flogging yourself. But you probably know this after two marathons.

Good luck with the project. 4 hours is a very achievable target for someone of your experience, and your 5k time indicates you have plenty of leeway.

skyblue46 · 04-05-2018 10:47pm

The Black Oil wrote: »

You're right about there being no silver bullets - experience and training teaches that. I'm not sure consistency is enough, though.

I think for the two people I mentioned that steady consistent miles will be enough to get them a 3:59 based on times they have done already. In truth I think many would gain from building a good base before taking on elaborate training plans which often lead to over training if an adequate base is not in place.

Derco · 04-05-2018 11:06pm

Just when I had accepted that a sub 4 marathon was beyond me... I stumbled upon this thread. I will be following this thread with interest over the summer. I'm at something of a crossroads with regard to marathon running. My PB of 4:16 was in 2016. Since then I had a disaster DCM last year and shuffled around Manchester last month after an indifferent training block. I seem to be settling into a slower pace each year so my dilema is do I still try to do the marathon quicker or accept my slow pace and try an Ultra. At the moment I'm inclining towards the latter.

The very best of luck to everyone aiming for the magic 3:59 this year. If I'm not posting on this thread I'll certainly be lurking.

Murph_D · 04-05-2018 11:11pm

The Black Oil wrote: »

You're right about there being no silver bullets - experience and training teaches that. I'm not sure consistency is enough, though.

Consistency should be enough for someone who is reasonably healthy and not too overweight. If you can run 30 miles a week with some structure (speed/tempo/long/recovery) 4 hours is a very reasonable target. You need a reasonable amount of resilience too, but sensible training helps build this.

Kellygirl · 04-05-2018 11:18pm

Derco wrote: »

Just when I had accepted that a sub 4 marathon was beyond me... I stumbled upon this thread. I will be following this thread with interest over the summer. I'm at something of a crossroads with regard to marathon running. My PB of 4:16 was in 2016. Since then I had a disaster DCM last year and shuffled around Manchester last month after an indifferent training block. I seem to be settling into a slower pace each year so my dilema is do I still try to do the marathon quicker or accept my slow pace and try an Ultra. At the moment I'm inclining towards the latter.

The very best of luck to everyone aiming for the magic 3:59 this year. If I'm not posting on this thread I'll certainly be lurking.

I’d be interested to know how you are training Derco. Are you following a plan for the marathons? Have you an ultra in mind?

Derco · 04-05-2018 11:40pm

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’d be interested to know how you are training Derco. Are you following a plan for the marathons? Have you an ultra in mind?

Not doing any training at the moment. I just got Manchester out of my legs and I have work, exams and holidays taking up my time for the next few weeks. I'm about a stone over my fighting weight so I want to knock that off before starting training for Dublin.

I don't rigidly follow training plans either. I get the mileage done but don't do speed sessions or interval training. I have flat routes and hilly routes - that's it really. Last year I maxed out at 60 miles three weeks before the race and in hindsight that's probably the reason why it all went Pete Tong on the day.

As regards an Ultra.... well Connemara is on my running bucket list and every time I go on their website a little voice in my head says "Go on do the Ultra - I dare ya!" I'm too slow to do Donadea so I think that's my only option.

Kellygirl · 04-05-2018 11:47pm

Derco wrote: »

Not doing any training at the moment. I just got Manchester out of my legs and I have work, exams and holidays taking up my time for the next few weeks. I'm about a stone over my fighting weight so I want to knock that off before starting training for Dublin.

I don't rigidly follow training plans either. I get the mileage done but don't do speed sessions or interval training. I have flat routes and hilly routes - that's it really. Last year I maxed out at 60 miles three weeks before the race and in hindsight that's probably the reason why it all went Pete Tong on the day.

As regards an Ultra.... well Connemara is on my running bucket list and every time I go on their website a little voice in my head says "Go on do the Ultra - I dare ya!" I'm too slow to do Donadea so I think that's my only option.

That sounds like high mileage alright. I’m not you sure you have to do interval training to get to sub 4 but what the other most recent comments in the thread are saying about consistency is relevant I think. The pace you do your training runs at could be very relevant too. If you are running them all too hard or too fast you wouldn’t be doing yourself any favours.

Sounds like you need to do the ultra if that little voice is telling you!

skyblue46 · 04-05-2018 11:53pm

Which voice is shouting loudest? Sub 4 or ultra? Both will need lots of effort. Why knock off the weight before starting training? Could the training not be part of the process.

Derco · 05-05-2018 12:05am

Kellygirl wrote: »

That sounds like high mileage alright. I’m not you sure you have to do interval training to get to sub 4 but what the other most recent comments in the thread are saying about consistency is relevant I think. The pace you do your training runs at could be very relevant too. If you are running them all too hard or too fast you wouldn’t be doing yourself any favours.

Sounds like you need to do the ultra if that little voice is telling you!

That little voice has got me into trouble a few times over the years

My pace is generally conservative, especially on my long runs but having said that, I finished the 60 mile week last year by doing the 3/4 in Longwood - which I ran like a madman. So if anyone here is thinking of doing the 3/4 as a tune-up, by all means do it - it's a good, well organised race. But use it as a training run only.

Derco · 05-05-2018 12:14am

skyblue46 wrote: »

Which voice is shouting loudest? Sub 4 or ultra?

Right now Ultra but I'm still doing Dublin.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Both will need lots of effort.

I have been guilty of deluding myself many times but this not one of them.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Why knock off the weight before starting training? Could the training not be part of the process.

I plan to focus mainly on the gym in June and get a good month of S&C before doing any serious mileage

Murph_D · 05-05-2018 12:43am

Derco wrote: »

My pace is generally conservative, especially on my long runs but having said that, I finished the 60 mile week last year by doing the 3/4 in Longwood - which I ran like a madman. So if anyone here is thinking of doing the 3/4 as a tune-up, by all means do it - it's a good, well organised race. But use it as a training run only.

Raced the ¾ at the end of a 60 mile week? There’s your issue right there - as you know now. Were you getting any advice at all from anyone? Mileage alone won’t get you to sub-4. But that kind of mileage, applied correctly, should bring a far better reward. Why wouldn’t you structure it better - doing yourself justice for the amount of time you are putting in? A 60 mile week is a big time investment.

Sounds like you know already where you’ve been going wrong. Moving to ultras won’t help - you’ll just be compounding the same problem over longer distances.

A bit of discipline and sensible, appropriate training and sub-4 should be in the bag.

ewc78 · 05-05-2018 8:01am

Murph_D wrote: »

8k in 39 mins is a very fast run for a 4-hour marathoner.

Can I ask what the point of this session was? Did you warm up before, and cool down after this run, which is probably not far off your 10k pace? Or was some of it faster than the 4:53 average?

Don’t get me wrong - it’s a very good session if the point of it was a long tempo run, but if you’re not doing these runs in a structured way (sppedwork, tempo, easy, long etc) you could well just end up flogging yourself. But you probably know this after two marathons.

Good luck with the project. 4 hours is a very achievable target for someone of your experience, and your 5k time indicates you have plenty of leeway.

I was supposed to do a Tempo run outside which I normally run at about 5:10 pace but between one thing and another I couldn't leave the house so I hopped on the treadmill. I find it easier running on the mill at a faster speed than the same speed outside so that's why I ended up running a bit faster. I measure all my treadmill runs with a stryd footpod so the paces are accurate enough.
Thanks for the input though. I know I need a bit more structure to training.

Pomplamousse · 05-05-2018 8:42pm

Great thread idea. I'm planning on going for sub-4 in Dublin this year. Attempted sub-4 for the only marathon I've run, DCM 2016, and I faded badly around mile 16ish. Crawled home in 4:19:22 and swore I'd never attempt a marathon again. I think I got my fuelling all wrong and possibly ran my long runs too slow among other things.

Half marathon PB is 1:48:23, from April 2017. Was aiming for a 1:44:59 half in April 2018 but 9 weeks into training I went splat on the ground, needed stitches in my knee and was out of action for 4 weeks. Gutted as I felt like I was making a lot of progress fitness wise, for the first time in ages.

Slowly getting back into it now. I think I need an agressive marathon plan if I want sub-4, with plenty of PMP runs. I'm about 90% decided that I'm gonna go for the meno plan, although I'll stick to the lower end of the suggested weekly mileage:o

Looking forward to seeing how everyone gets on in this thread.

skyblue46 · 05-05-2018 8:49pm

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Great thread idea. I'm planning on going for sub-4 in Dublin this year. Attempted sub-4 for the only marathon I've run, DCM 2016, and I faded badly around mile 16ish. Crawled home in 4:19:22 and swore I'd never attempt a marathon again. I think I got my fuelling all wrong and possibly ran my long runs too slow among other things.

Half marathon PB is 1:48:23, from April 2017. Was aiming for a 1:44:59 half in April 2018 but 9 weeks into training I went splat on the ground, needed stitches in my knee and was out of action for 4 weeks. Gutted as I felt like I was making a lot of progress fitness wise, for the first time in ages.

Slowly getting back into it now. I think I need an agressive marathon plan if I want sub-4, with plenty of PMP runs. I'm about 90% decided that I'm gonna go for the meno plan, although I'll stick to the lower end of the suggested weekly mileage:o

Looking forward to seeing how everyone gets on in this thread.

Hi there. This one has me intrigued. What pace were you doing your long runs at? What was your last plan lacking in aggression?

It seems you are making steady progress towards a sub 4 already.

Pomplamousse · 05-05-2018 9:11pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Hi there. This one has me intrigued. What pace were you doing your long runs at? What was your last plan lacking in aggression?

It seems you are making steady progress towards a sub 4 already.

For DCM 2016, my long runs were generally somewhere between 10:30-11 mins per mile.
I followed the boards novices plan and while there was one PMP run a week, I think I'd benefit from some of the Wednesday session runs that are in the meno plan as well as the PMP miles incorporated into some of the LSRs.
I'm no expert though so these mightn't have been an issue in my sub-4 failure at all:o
When I was training for my half marathon this year before I fell, my LSRs were between 9:30-10mins/mile and I really felt like my fitness was improving a lot.

ewc78 · 05-05-2018 9:25pm

I've heard loads of times you can't run your long slow runs too slow... I dunno about that though.
I really struggle with any pace over say 10/min miles. My legs get heavy and I get tired quicker. I find it really difficult to go as slow as some of the calculators suggest I should be running for long runs. Is this something that I should work on or like Pomplamousse above should I just run at what I feel is a more comfortable slow pace which would be roughly 9.40/mile pace.

skyblue46 · 05-05-2018 9:44pm

Ok well this time last year I only started to run regularly. One of the most important pieces of advice I took on board was to do the easy runs easy. As with both of you the slow paces felt artificially slow. This article convinced me to slow down. https://runnersconnect.net/wrong-long-run-pace/

So I kept my long runs slow and ended up doing DCM under my 4 hour target. I have continued to run and my times have steadily improved over all distances. My long and easy runs are still done at 3 mins above my 5k pace, never faster than 9 minute miles. By all means introduce some type of session but slow running is the key component to increasing endurance.

skyblue46 · 05-05-2018 9:46pm

ewc78 wrote: »

I've heard loads of times you can't run your long slow runs too slow... I dunno about that though.
I really struggle with any pace over say 10/min miles. My legs get heavy and I get tired quicker. I find it really difficult to go as slow as some of the calculators suggest I should be running for long runs. Is this something that I should work on or like Pomplamousse above should I just run at what I feel is a more comfortable slow pace which would be roughly 9.40/mile pace.

Your legs might get heavy and tired but they you will get stronger in time. Long slow runs are what you need to translate faster 5k times into comparable longer race times.

The Black Oil · 05-05-2018 10:41pm

LSR paces don't concern me, really. Execution is possibly where I run into issues as I usually still have too much energy after finishing from not going for it. Miles 14, 21-23 are what I didn't enjoy last year, if Garmin's anything to go by.

I'm a little reluctant to post in this thread as I'll probably just line up with the 4:10s again, though we've a few months to go. Then there's the assigned wave thing too.

Lazare · 06-05-2018 12:06am

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Great thread idea. I'm planning on going for sub-4 in Dublin this year. Attempted sub-4 for the only marathon I've run, DCM 2016, and I faded badly around mile 16ish. Crawled home in 4:19:22.

May I ask what your pacing strat was for that one?

And what was your half time in 2016?

Pomplamousse · 06-05-2018 11:19am

Lazare wrote: »

May I ask what your pacing strat was for that one?

And what was your half time in 2016?

Pacing strategy was even splits and think that was going alright until I faded. Unfortunately my Garmin went haywire before I had a chance to upload the run so I don't have any of the data:( I also came down with a cold and cough the week of the marathon and while I was feeling fine by marathon day, I've no idea if that did or didn't play a role in me fading.

The only half I had ever raced before DCM 2016 was in August 2015 and I did that in 1:56:34. I ran the Dublin Half marathon in September 2016, but decided to do it at marathon pace rather than race it, as I was worried about injury risk. Speeded up a bit towards the end as I still had loads of energy and did it in 1:57:15. I know I had a much better time in me had I been racing, but no idea what exactly time it would've been. Sorry that's not very helpful to you at all!

Murph_D · 06-05-2018 11:46am

For what it’s worth, I did 4:02 in first marathon (2012) using one of the Higdon Novice plans. Had an 86-min 10 mile in the run-up but sub-4 was always going to be a stretch with the low mileage I was on - only around 25 miles a week. The plan had no speed or tempo, just the odd few miles at MP. A classic ‘get you around’ plan.

The following year, the meno plan was introduced as he was mentoring the 2012 graduates. I ran 3:47 in 2013 off that - a good mixture of speed, tempo, long, easy. And lots of advice about how to run them. I found it excellent, doing it at about 35-40 miles per week. Used it twice more, in fact, getting down to 3:29 by Cork 2015.

The key was not the day-to-day details of the plan itself, but rather its overall scope and structure: increased mileage, challenging sessions, long runs with added challenges (in and around MP, variable pace, etc). This all helps with learning to push yourself a little harder, run with discomfort, confidence - all those things you need to break through arbitrary barriers such as sub-4, sub-3:45, sub-3:30 etc. Some of it is mental, but the majority is just doing the work diligently, running at the right paces so your body makes the adaptations you need.

My old log at https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057009350 documents that first sub-4 training and marathon, if it’s of any interest to anyone.

Best of luck to anyone attempting. I’ve no doubt that almost anyone can do it with a bit of discipline, and of course you have to make the start line - sometimes the hardest challenge of all, especially earlier in your running career.

Pomplamousse · 06-05-2018 12:12pm

Murph_D wrote: »

My old log at https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057009350 documents that first sub-4 training and marathon, if it’s of any interest to anyone.

That'll be really useful to have a read of, thanks!

Lazare · 06-05-2018 1:03pm

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Pacing strategy was even splits and think that was going alright until I faded. Unfortunately my Garmin went haywire before I had a chance to upload the run so I don't have any of the data:( I also came down with a cold and cough the week of the marathon and while I was feeling fine by marathon day, I've no idea if that did or didn't play a role in me fading.

The only half I had ever raced before DCM 2016 was in August 2015 and I did that in 1:56:34. I ran the Dublin Half marathon in September 2016, but decided to do it at marathon pace rather than race it, as I was worried about injury risk. Speeded up a bit towards the end as I still had loads of energy and did it in 1:57:15. I know I had a much better time in me had I been racing, but no idea what exactly time it would've been. Sorry that's not very helpful to you at all!

I got some stellar course specific advice last year from a Dublin veteran, a 2:32 marathoner.

Basically, even splits are a bad idea.

The course is set up for a negative split, the Chapelizod hill for instance if ran too hard will end your race and you won't know about it for two hours.
He slows to almost walking up it.

I took all that on board and got a custom pace band.

I ran at about 4:12 pace until about mile 6 and slowly picked it up. 4 hour pacers were 2km ahead, I didn't catch them until Milltown.

I know for sure if I ran with them from the gun I would have ran about a 4:10 at best.

My half time is within 2 minutes of yours and I ran a 3:58 so with good pacing strat you will nail it.

The Sub 4 Support Thread

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