Men's rights on Abortion?

veronymus · 16-04-2018 07:46PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

do you know if a pregnant woman is killed is there a bigger punishment for the accused compared to if the woman was not pregnant?

I stand to be corrected but as far as I know it would have no effect on a murder charge. I'm going out on a limb here as I don't know of any such case, but I guess it may be considered an aggravating factor on a manslaughter charge because the judge will have discretion in sentencing.

Mark Hamill · 16-04-2018 08:53PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

maybe read properly before you assume you understand someone elses point of view. abortion is when the offspring is still living inside the mother.

I thought the whole point of the anti-choice side was that the baby in the womb is the same as the baby outside?
Also, as gctest50 mentioned, there is the Bruce Effect, which is when certain animals abort their own pregnancies.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if we agree that some animals murder their children in the wild, does that mean its ok to do?

they also rape each other.

Animals doing something doesn't make it right or wrong, but it does contradict anyone saying they don't do it.

Jenneke87 · 16-04-2018 09:15PM

I had to have all three of my pregnancies terminated, or " the babies killed" as some of you like to call it. Only that is the reason I'm currently alive. I'm grateful that in my home country there is abortion on demand so that women, when they need to, can safely terminate.
I believe that some pro-lifers massively misunderstand how difficult it is to make that decision. We don't go in there with a smile on our faces in anticipation of the free tea and cookies will get after the procedure. In my country murder will get you 25 years. If you " kill" at six weeks gestation the fetus is the size of a grain of rice, yet some of you want to put the two on equal footing, it's just bizarre..To become completely without rights just because you can get pregnant is truly a scary idea and one, I bet that wouldn't even be discussed if men could get pregnant. I also wonder if those that are pro-life and claim that poverty of lack of finances to properly raise is not a reason to abort a child would financially support a woman so she can keep it, but we all know the answer..Suddenly the child is no longer their business..
Three days ago, here, a 19 year old girl gave birth, put the baby in a plastic bag and left it to die on the balcony, which the baby did. I was horrified, first of all for the baby but also because, if she truly did not want the baby, she could have safely terminated the pregnancy. I'm sure the baby was now far more aware of it's impending death than it would have been had she terminated.
A pregnancy and it's continuation is between the woman, her partner if still on scene and her GP and no-one else.

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 09:23PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the anti-choice side was that the baby in the womb is the same as the baby outside?
Also, as gctest50 mentioned, there is the Bruce Effect, which is when certain animals abort their own pregnancies.

Animals doing something doesn't make it right or wrong, but it does contradict anyone saying they don't do it.

I said they dont have abortions. anyway it made things more confusing because people quote out of context or havent read everything

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 09:27PM

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I had to have all three of my pregnancies terminated, or " the babies killed" as some of you like to call it. Only that is the reason I'm currently alive. I'm grateful that in my home country there is abortion on demand so that women, when they need to, can safely terminate.
I believe that some pro-lifers massively misunderstand how difficult it is to make that decision. We don't go in there with a smile on our faces in anticipation of the free tea and cookies will get after the procedure. In my country murder will get you 25 years. If you " kill" at six weeks gestation the fetus is the size of a grain of rice, yet some of you want to put the two on equal footing, it's just bizarre..To become completely without rights just because you can get pregnant is truly a scary idea and one, I bet that wouldn't even be discussed if men could get pregnant. I also wonder if those that are pro-life and claim that poverty of lack of finances to properly raise is not a reason to abort a child would financially support a woman so she can keep it, but we all know the answer..Suddenly the child is no longer their business..
Three days ago, here, a 19 year old girl gave birth, put the baby in a plastic bag and left it to die on the balcony, which the baby did. I was horrified, first of all for the baby but also because, if she truly did not want the baby, she could have safely terminated the pregnancy. I'm sure the baby was now far more aware of it's impending death than it would have been had she terminated.
A pregnancy and it's continuation is between the woman, her partner if still on scene and her GP and no-one else.

I have no problem with that, thats morally acceptable, it was the only option. I think euthanasia should be allowed, I would still call it killing, because thats the word used to describe when you end the life of an organism. people attach their own emotions to the word.

end of the road · 16-04-2018 09:30PM

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I had to have all three of my pregnancies terminated, or " the babies killed" as some of you like to call it. Only that is the reason I'm currently alive. I'm grateful that in my home country there is abortion on demand so that women, when they need to, can safely terminate.

as far as i'm concerned you are a medically necessary case and you should have access to abortion. i don't believe we need abortion on demand for cases like yours however.

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I believe that some pro-lifers massively misunderstand how difficult it is to make that decision. We don't go in there with a smile on our faces in anticipation of the free tea and cookies will get after the procedure. In my country murder will get you 25 years. If you " kill" at six weeks gestation the fetus is the size of a grain of rice, yet some of you want to put the two on equal footing, it's just bizarre..To become completely without rights just because you can get pregnant is truly a scary idea and one, I bet that wouldn't even be discussed if men could get pregnant.

the 2 technically aren't on an equal footing, even with constitutional protection for the unborn. the unborn only have a right to life. that is all. and even then it is as much as is practical to uphold it. so the mother does have the greater rights from what i can see.

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I also wonder if those that are pro-life and claim that poverty of lack of finances to properly raise is not a reason to abort a child would financially support a woman so she can keep it, but we all know the answer..Suddenly the child is no longer their business..

us pro-life of that view already support such children via our taxes, the wellfare system. it's absolutely right that it exists and helps to support parents who are in difficulty.

SusieBlue · 16-04-2018 09:44PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

have no problem with that, thats morally acceptable, it was the only option. I think euthanasia should be allowed, I would still call it killing, because thats the word used to describe when you end the life of an organism. people attach their own emotions to the word.

It’s this kind of talk that annoys me.
Who made you the authority on what is and isn’t morally acceptable?
Regardless, why should any woman have to justify terminating a pregnancy to you, to see if their reason is morally acceptable?

Why should I have to live my life, and indeed, have my healthcare restricted, because of your morals? Especially when I disagree with you? I don’t even know you?

In my opinion making any woman continue with a pregnancy she doesn’t want is morally unacceptable.

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 10:12PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

It’s this kind of talk that annoys me.
Who made you the authority on what is and isn’t morally acceptable?
Regardless, why should any woman have to justify terminating a pregnancy to you, to see if their reason is morally acceptable?

Why should I have to live my life, and indeed, have my healthcare restricted, because of your morals? Especially when I disagree with you? I don’t even know you?

In my opinion making any woman continue with a pregnancy she doesn’t want is morally unacceptable.

we are going around in circles heres

theres a law thats in place, I dont aggree with many aspects of it but thats the law. I didnt make the law, but thats the current authority

Im only offering my own point of view. even when the morals I hold are in agreement with a poster here you try to paint me as the bad guy.

I see people all the time talk about how drugs are evil, while they drink and smoke themselves. Im not allowed use natural plant extracts because someone else decided they have control over my body, but I can buy a product with cancer causing additives and destroy my body with that ,because the law says thats ok

if someone wants to change the law they need to justify their reasons to their fellow citizens, it seems you disagree with how civilized society works, and i dont blame you for that.

Im not the bad guy here, Im expressing my own opinion on life, its not an easy subject to talk about, which is why some people refuse to even try discuss it.

gctest50 · 16-04-2018 10:14PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I said they dont have abortions...........

You said :

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

..... No other species aborts their own children. Its not very humane

"Auto-abortion" !!!!

Gelada monkeys in the wild abort their pregnancies if a new dominant male takes over

The ones that do, tend to fare better - easy to see why that's the way it is

see :

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I have no problem with abortions for medical reasons, but we are headed towards the same type of system used as other countries which is morally wrong. If you cant see that you are blind. I'm not religious, but I value human life. It should be given a chance to grow up and experience being a human. No other species aborts their own children. Its not very humane

#inb4appeal2nature

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 10:22PM

gctest50 wrote: »

You said :

"Auto-abortion" !!!!

Gelada monkeys in the wild abort their pregnancies if a new dominant male takes over

The ones that do, tend to fare better - easy to see why that's the way it is

see :

they suffer a miscarriage, there is no scientific evidence to show that they are giving themselves abortions. it seems to be a biological processes that happens under certain environmental conditions. they dont use special tools or natural medicines to terminate their pregnancy

it seems like you want to prove me wrong on small details, rather than tackle the core subject

try harder next time

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 10:24PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

It’s this kind of talk that annoys me.
Who made you the authority on what is and isn’t morally acceptable?
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 10:45PM

I think you might be caught up in semantics gctest50

gctest50 · 16-04-2018 11:40PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I think you might be caught up in semantics gctest50

and you come out with :

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

they suffer a miscarriage,

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

there is no scientific evidence to show that they are giving themselves abortions. it seems to be a biological processes that happens under certain environmental conditions. they dont use special tools or natural medicines to terminate their pregnancy

Evolution - they don't need "special tools or natural medicines"

If a lab mouse that's a few days pregnant smells the urine of a strange male her prolactin will drop and she will spontaneously abort ( miscarry if scairt of the a word ) because dopamine

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

...........

it seems to be a biological processes

.....

What do you think was going to happen ? Little Gelada abortion clinics pop up ?

Evolution - the ones that do the auto-terminating fare better

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

it seems like you want to prove me wrong on small details, rather than tackle the core subject

#it'sallaboutmeeeee again i see

It was one of your main points, that we are "going against nature" :

This is what you said :

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

......

No other species aborts their own children. Its not very humane

Seems your posts are filled with ye olde appeal to nature

From this thread :

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

...........

I see people all the time talk about how drugs are evil, while they drink and smoke themselves.

Im not allowed use natural plant extracts because someone else decided they have control over my body, but I can buy a product with cancer causing additives and destroy my body with that ,because the law says thats ok

Can't believe your trying to slip in " natural plant extracts" are good-because-nature with no-abortion is-good-because-natural to the thread

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 06:48AM

what youre talking about is something completely different to human abortions, dont throw semantics back at me.

if a woman is in a club and spots a more physically attractive male should she go and get an abortion because the new male will provide a genetically superior offspring? that sounds alot like eugenic abortion

the bruce effect has not been confirmed in geladas, but you seem to want to keep that species in your argument. they have miscarriages when a new alpha male enters the group. or he just kills her children so they can have more with him as the father.
should a new boyfriend be allowed kill a womans child from her previous partner like the geladas you are fond of?

you can keep twisting my words but it wont change anything. I also mentioned MDMA which is not a natural plant extract, I didnt want to have to cover all the various drugs that I'm not allowed put in my body which are safe when used correctly

"#it'sallaboutmeeeee" look at you picking my posts apart and framing them to suit your own narrative with your condescending tone

if you believe we should behave like apes perhaps you would like to finish this argument like apes, I assume you're a male?

_Dara_ · 17-04-2018 11:40AM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

will it get the same kind of support from liberals as Repeal?
or will that situation remain the same because men are 'privileged' and should be happy with what they have

In the current climate, probably not but in the future, I think it might. The world is not ready for legal abortion yet. I don’t think it’s a “thing” in any country in the world yet.

Voting against repeal for that reason would be pretty spiteful; there’s an “if I can’t have something, neither can you” vibe to it. (I honestly think very few would vote against repeal for that reason alone) The two issues won’t be decided together.

Mark Hamill · 17-04-2018 01:26PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if you believe we should behave like apes perhaps you would like to finish this argument like apes, I assume you're a male?

The point, as is obvious to most everyone else, is that animals having abortions contradicts your appeal to nature fallacy. And it is a fallacy because whether or not animals do it is entirely irrelevant. Animals don't post on the internet either, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Still, interesting to see threats of violence when you are called out for your fallacies. Shows your lack of forethought in your position and your lack of confidence in your arguments.

SusieBlue · 17-04-2018 02:29PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

The very ironic part about your original post is that while you sympathised, and agreed her abortion was morally acceptable in your eyes, you are still going to vote No in order to stop the "bad" abortions you don't agree with.

Which means that women like her will continue having to risk their health and lives, just so you can sleep easy knowing the "bad" abortions have been stopped....Except they haven't. 4k abortions happen every year.
It just makes it unsafe for those who do need to travel.

What are these women to you, collateral damage? Do you think its morally acceptable for women to have to risk their health and lives, so that we can proudly declare we're an abortion free country? (even though we aren't)

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 04:43PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

The very ironic part about your original post is that while you sympathised, and agreed her abortion was morally acceptable in your eyes, you are still going to vote No in order to stop the "bad" abortions you don't agree with.

Which means that women like her will continue having to risk their health and lives, just so you can sleep easy knowing the "bad" abortions have been stopped....Except they haven't. 4k abortions happen every year.
It just makes it unsafe for those who do need to travel.

What are these women to you, collateral damage? Do you think its morally acceptable for women to have to risk their health and lives, so that we can proudly declare we're an abortion free country? (even though we aren't)

you assume wrong

under the current legislation an abortion can be allowed to protect a woman's life, if that's not being allowed to happen there is something wrong with those in control of hospitals, not the law

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 04:56PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The point, as is obvious to most everyone else, is that animals having abortions contradicts your appeal to nature fallacy. And it is a fallacy because whether or not animals do it is entirely irrelevant. Animals don't post on the internet either, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Still, interesting to see threats of violence when you are called out for your fallacies. Shows your lack of forethought in your position and your lack of confidence in your arguments.

I dont know how many times I have to point out that its not the same as what humans do. Can I kill a womans infant children from another man so that I can make more children with her using my own DNA?

Trees have an 'internet', they use their roots and their leaves to communicate with each other. Mushrooms also do the same type of communication thru soil, they breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide just like us.

that particular poster is fond of apes , I refuted their points and humorlessly gave them an option for conclusion.

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 05:00PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

The very ironic part about your original post is that while you sympathised, and agreed her abortion was morally acceptable in your eyes, you are still going to vote No in order to stop the "bad" abortions you don't agree with.

Which means that women like her will continue having to risk their health and lives, just so you can sleep easy knowing the "bad" abortions have been stopped....Except they haven't. 4k abortions happen every year.
It just makes it unsafe for those who do need to travel.

What are these women to you, collateral damage? Do you think its morally acceptable for women to have to risk their health and lives, so that we can proudly declare we're an abortion free country? (even though we aren't)

can we have a discussion here and not an argument? are those 4,000 abortions because a womans life is in danger from the pregnancy, and why are they not allowed happen in Ireland if the life of the mother is in danger? you could try educate me instead of trying to guilt trip me

and of course I dont think its morally acceptable for a woman to die because she hasnt been allowed an abortion

Triceratops Ballet · 17-04-2018 05:05PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

can we have a discussion here and not an argument? are those 4,000 abortions because a womans life is in danger from the pregnancy, and why are they not allowed happen in Ireland if the life of the mother is in danger? you could try educate me instead of trying to guilt trip me

and of course I dont think its morally acceptable for a woman to die because she hasnt been allowed an abortion

No, some of them happen because the foetus has FFA and they can't be administered here and some happen because the woman chose to have an abortion

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 05:13PM

unlike alot of people I have an open mind, I just wish people would be honest when they spoke, instead of using dishonest tactics

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 05:14PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

No, some of them happen because the foetus has FFA and they can't be administered here and some happen because the woman chose to have an abortion

it would be nice to have a proper break down of the numbers

gctest50 · 17-04-2018 05:22PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

the bruce effect has not been confirmed in geladas, but you seem to want to keep that species in your argument.

you missed this part :

gctest50 wrote: »

.........

If a lab mouse that's a few days pregnant smells the urine of a strange male her prolactin will drop and she will spontaneously abort ( miscarry if scairt of the A word ) because dopamine

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

they have miscarriages when a new alpha male enters the group.

or he just kills her children so they can have more with him as the father.

OR ? OR ? OR ? that is the WHOLE POINT of them spontaneously aborting - to avoid infanticide by the new dominant male

The ones that do this fare better

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if you believe we should behave like apes perhaps you would like to finish this argument like apes, I assume you're a male?

They warn about people like that on the internet, start some conversation and then turn it into about meeting up

What then ? meet up, then say lets have some drugs instead because arguing and fighting is bad :

That's like something Jeffrey Dahmer would do

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I also mentioned MDMA which is not a natural plant extract,
I didnt want to have to cover all the various drugs that I'm not allowed put in my body which are safe when used correctly

qft:

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what youre talking about is something completely different to human abortions, dont throw semantics back at me.

if a woman is in a club and spots a more physically attractive male should she go and get an abortion because the new male will provide a genetically superior offspring? that sounds alot like eugenic abortion

the bruce effect has not been confirmed in geladas, but you seem to want to keep that species in your argument. they have miscarriages when a new alpha male enters the group. or he just kills her children so they can have more with him as the father.
should a new boyfriend be allowed kill a womans child from her previous partner like the geladas you are fond of?

you can keep twisting my words but it wont change anything. I also mentioned MDMA which is not a natural plant extract, I didnt want to have to cover all the various drugs that I'm not allowed put in my body which are safe when used correctly

"#it'sallaboutmeeeee" look at you picking my posts apart and framing them to suit your own narrative with your condescending tone

if you believe we should behave like apes perhaps you would like to finish this argument like apes, I assume you're a male?

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 05:32PM

gctest50 wrote: »

That's like something Jeffrey Dahmer would do

that sums you up nicely, cowardly throwing insults and mocking strangers on the internet

I'm like a cannibal serial killer sex offender?

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 06:23PM

Ive mentioned mdma, but Ive never used it. Im aware of it medicinal benefits, it would also improve social interactions within societies, which is one of the main reasons it's illegal. lets leave the strawman building out of this

17-04-2018 06:25PM

what are the medicinal benefits of mdma?

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 06:50PM

bubblypop wrote: »

what are the medicinal benefits of mdma?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/ecstasy-could-be-breakthrough-therapy-for-soldiers-others-suffering-from-ptsd/2017/08/26/009314ca-842f-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b_story.html

Theres research being conducted at the moment on it being used to treat depression and PTSD . And so far the results are extremely positive

Psilocybin also has great potential

street drugs are not safe because you dont know what the ingredients are, but pure mdma is safe when used at the correct dosage

Some people are micro dosing LSD, again it's also helping fight depression and other mental illnesses , but it also has positive side effects. When the dosage is small there are no physical impairments, a person can function as 'normal' at work without raising any suspicion of 'being on drugs'

https://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=mdma+ptsd

'Magic Mushroom' Chemical Eases Cancer Despair

Hallucinogenic drug psilocybin relieved depression, anxiety quickly and lasted for months, studies found
https://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20161201/magic-mushroom-chemical-eases-cancer-patients-despair#1

Mark Hamill · 17-04-2018 06:52PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I dont know how many times I have to point out that its not the same as what humans do. Can I kill a womans infant children from another man so that I can make more children with her using my own DNA?

Why they do it is irrelevant, animals still have abortions. They stop otherwise healthy pregnancies by themselves.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Trees have an 'internet', they use their roots and their leaves to communicate with each other. Mushrooms also do the same type of communication thru soil, they breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide just like us.

SNIP adds nothing

Please stop saying whatever random nonsense comes into you head. Trees and mushrooms have an internet? Do they have modems and network cards? Whats their version of 4chan, tree moss?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

that particular poster is fond of apes , I refuted their points and humorlessly gave them an option for conclusion.

It's the lack of humor that makes it seem like a threat of violence.

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 06:58PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why they do it is irrelevant, animals still have abortions. They stop otherwise healthy pregnancies by themselves.

SNIP adds nothing

Please stop saying whatever random nonsense comes into you head. Trees and mushrooms have an internet? Do they have modems and network cards? Whats their version of 4chan, tree moss?

It's the lack of humor that makes it seem like a threat of violence.

Hidden under your feet is an information superhighway that allows plants to communicate and help each other out. It’s made of fungi
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141111-plants-have-a-hidden-internet

Men's rights on Abortion?

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