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Men's rights on Abortion?

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  • 30-01-2018 12:32pm
    #1
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭


    Do we get a look in anywhere or can a man/boyfriend/fiance/husband legally challenge a woman's decision to abort?

    I've put in a poll to see what you think

    Should men have a decision on abortion? 841 votes

    Yes as it's 50% them in there
    0% 0 votes
    No it's 100% the choice for the woman
    40% 339 votes
    Atari Jaguar
    59% 502 votes


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    #2
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Do we get a look in anywhere or can a man/boyfriend/fiance/husband legally challenge a woman's decision to abort?

    I've put in a poll to see what you think

    Basically your asking can a man force a woman to carry a baby to term?

    NO!


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    #3
    Sesame
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Sesame


    No. Seeing as a man can walk away from an unwanted pregnancy, a woman should be able to as well.

    I know the argument back will be a woman can claim for child support etc so a man can't really walk away, but in reality no man can be forced to parent, whereas at the moment the 8th amendment is trying to inflict forced pregnancy.
    Allowing abortion evens this up so both adults involved can decide not to proceed.


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    #4
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Basically your asking can a man force a woman to carry a baby to term?

    NO!

    Yes that's what I'm asking


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    #5
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Nope. You ain’t got no rights, jack. And if she decides to go ahead and have an abortion, there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. Hell, she might not even tell you; you’d never know.


    So you’ll just have to give her trust and respect and see how it goes. Funny old world, eh?


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    #6
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Sesame wrote: »
    No. Seeing as a man can walk away from an unwanted pregnancy, a woman should be able to as well.

    .

    It's not unwanted if one side or the coupe wants to go ahead.


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    #7
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Basically your asking can a man force a woman to carry a baby to term?

    NO!

    Well he shouldn't have to maintain said baby if the opposite is true.

    Man favors abortion and woman does not.


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    #8
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Well he shouldn't have to maintain said baby if the opposite is true.

    Man favors abortion and woman does not.

    Unfortunately you can't just pull it out and put it in the top oven.


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    #9
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    No and it should never be allowed.

    Equality is important but there is no equality when one person has the burden to carry a pregnancy.

    If you have a woman who wants an abortion and a man who doesn't who "wins" in that situation. If the man can prevent it, is it not saying a man's wishes have more worth than the woman? I believe the woman's right to have a say over what happens to her body has to be paramount.

    It's not fair but neither is it fair for a woman to have her wishes ignored. And tbh, I can't imagine many men really being comfortable forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will.


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    #10
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Nope, it's 100% a choice for the female in my view.


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    #11
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    No, because pregnancy is for the most part a one-sided affair and I don't believe the "I produced some sperm" argument holds much weight against a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

    If you break it down into two component parts - the embryo and the woman - the man has rights when it comes to the embryo, but doesn't have any right when it comes to the woman.

    In the case of frozen embryos, a man can refuse/permit an embryo to be implanted, but he cannot insist that the woman carry it.

    I would still largely support a system of "abortion" that allows a man to permanently forgo all parental rights and obligations to a pregnancy, but that doesn't mean the opposite - a system which forces someone to become a parent - should be allowed to exist.


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    #12
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Do we get a look in anywhere or can a man/boyfriend/fiance/husband legally challenge a woman's decision to abort?

    I've put in a poll to see what you think

    No. A woman shouldn't be forced to have / or be denied an abortion if the guy objects.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #13
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #14
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    So going by the majority of comments Men will continue to have zero rights when it concerns the welfare of their own child.

    Now equality can probably never been achieved nor should it really be since a man cannot carry the child however there is zero provisions given to men considering it is their child.

    Strange that but doesn't surprise me.


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    #15
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    So going by the majority of comments Men will continue to have zero rights when it concerns the welfare of their own child.

    Now equality can probably never been achieved nor should it really be since a man cannot carry the child however there is zero provisions given to men considering it is their child.

    Strange that but doesn't surprise me.

    Do explain how not supporting the idea that a guy can veto a womans choice to have an abortion means someone is opposed to any improvement of rights for fathers and their kids.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #16
    NollagShona
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭NollagShona


    Men have rights to become guardians of their own children (if they are not married to the mother)

    Forcing anyone to go through a pregnancy against their will is barbaric


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    #17
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Delirium wrote: »
    Do explain how not supporting the idea that a guy can veto a womans choice to have an abortion means someone is opposed to any improvement of rights for fathers and their kids.

    A womans right to choose supersedes a mans right to choose concerning their own child basically


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    #18
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    So going by the majority of comments Men will continue to have zero rights when it concerns the welfare of their own child.

    It's not yet a child at that stage though.


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    #19
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    seamus wrote: »
    No, because pregnancy is for the most part a one-sided affair and I don't believe the "I produced some sperm" argument holds much weight against a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

    If you break it down into two component parts - the embryo and the woman - the man has rights when it comes to the embryo, but doesn't have any right when it comes to the woman.

    In the case of frozen embryos, a man can refuse/permit an embryo to be implanted, but he cannot insist that the woman carry it.

    I would still largely support a system of "abortion" that allows a man to permanently forgo all parental rights and obligations to a pregnancy, but that doesn't mean the opposite - a system which forces someone to become a parent - should be allowed to exist.

    let's say Seamus number 4 is on the way or whatever number your on now and the baby has a cleft lip, you think it could have been worse but no way should you terminate, now Mrs Seamus wants an abortion because of it. Your both married, do you think you should have no right to challenge that decision?
    I suppose the reason I'm asking is probably more got to do with couples, should a man as part of an existing relationship have a right.


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    #20
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Not that it would make any difference here but there was a cause celebre back in England in the 1970s when a father tried to prevent his estranged partner from aborting the pregnancy they had initiated together (Jeesh it's hard phrasing all this in neutral language!!)

    He launched court proceedings attempting to effect this outcome and his argument, to the press at least, was "It takes two to make a baby, mate"

    He lost.


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    #21
    utyh2ikcq9z76b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    We should have the male abortion option, which
    would allow a potential father to legally abdicate his responsibility toward the child up to the 18th week of a woman's pregnancy. The man would lose any rights to visit the child but also would not pay any child support he may otherwise be required to contribute.

    For equalities sake we need this option.


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    #22
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    A womans right to choose supersedes a mans right to choose concerning their own child basically

    What's your suggested alternative?


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    #23
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Your both married, do you think you should have no right to challenge that decision?
    No. If I can't reason with her, then obviously there are serious questions to be asked about our future together.

    But there's no logical scenario in which I should be allowed to try and force her to carry the pregnancy to term.

    There is no "win" in the scenario you posit, no good outcome for anyone.


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    #24
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    Daniel Long Duct wrote: »
    We should have the male abortion option, which



    For equalities sake we need this option.

    I understand the logic behind this, but it may be unworkable. Isn't there legislation around a persons rights to know their parents? It's mostly applicable in adoption cases, but I could see it being an issue with that.


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    #25
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    seamus wrote: »
    No. If I can't reason with her, then obviously there are serious questions to be asked about our future together.

    But there's no logical scenario in which I should be allowed to try and force her to carry the pregnancy to term.

    There is no "win" in the scenario you posit, no good outcome for anyone.

    The woman does not want the baby hence the abortion yet in the same scenario the man might.

    The man is willing to raise the child can sign whatever legal documents etc etc.

    Is it not selfish of the woman to have an abortion in this instance when she knows the baby/child soon to be adult would have a life...


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    #26
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Is it not selfish of the woman to have an abortion in this instance when she knows the baby/child soon to be adult would have a life...
    Every outcome in this scenario is selfish on someone's part.


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    #27
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    The woman does not want the baby hence the abortion yet in the same scenario the man might.

    The man is willing to raise the child can sign whatever legal documents etc etc.

    Is it not selfish of the woman to have an abortion in this instance when she knows the baby/child soon to be adult would have a life...

    It's no more selfish to not have a child when you don't want one than it is to have a child when you do want one. Both actions serve your individual desires.


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    #28
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    A womans right to choose supersedes a mans right to choose concerning their own child basically

    Doesn't explain how someone that is opposed a man being able to veto a woman having an abortion means they are opposed to any improvement of a fathers rights regarding their kids.

    How is opposing a woman being denied the abortion she seeks mean that a person is opposed to better paternal leave for working fathers for example?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #29
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    It's no more selfish to not have a child when you don't want one than it is to have a child when you do want one. Both actions serve your individual desires.

    The future child's/adults desires are whats primarily being served in the form of life


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    #30
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    The future child's/adults desires are whats primarily being served in the form of life

    That's not the question you asked? You asked was the mother not being selfish, then answer is both her and the father are being selfish.

    The foetus has no desires and it has no time machine to know what it's future self would think. It doesn't even have a guaranteed future.


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    #31
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Daniel Long Duct wrote: »
    We should have the male abortion option, which



    For equalities sake we need this option.

    But the issue with that is once a child is born there are 3 people involved not 2. If a man has the right to a legal 'abortion' does that mean when the child is an adult they have no rights to know who their father is? What if they change their mind and try contact the child when its older - the legal abortion was between mother and father, the child had no say. What about the rights of grandparents etc if the father opts to have no involvement but they would like to meet and know their grandchild is that removed from them? On the flip side if we take the 8th amendment to be literal and that from the moment of conception it is a person does that mean a woman can demand support from the father from the moment of conception? Currently a father has no legal obligation (not taking about all the amazing men who are there the whole way from conception to birth as solid support, just taking in cases where the two people are not together) to support a child until it is born but should child support payments start from conception rather than birth. If a man can stop a woman having an abortion are they also allowed to force their choices in other areas of the pregnancy like what they eat for example or other medical choices. Honestly if you start going down that road it's a Pandoras box of what ifs

    It is true that it takes two to create a baby but only one person can care for it for the first 9 months after conception. There is a difference between conception and pregnancy and currently there isn't equality in pregnancy as the burden to develop a fetus till it is viable outside the womb falls 100% on women. Unless there is a massive medical breakthrough down the line allowing for equal sharing of this by men or by artificial means, my view is it is a medical issue that should be left to the person and their doctor to decide what is the best course of action.


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