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Men's rights on Abortion?

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  • #1232
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    We’re a long, long way from that. It won’t be happening any time soon. Ireland won’t be leading the world on the issue.

    If it ever does happen, it should also come with a strict deadline so that a woman can have an abortion if she discovers that the man will not be contributing. No deciding in the eight month of pregnancy that being a father is not for him.

    I really hope nobody votes no to repeal for the reason that men can’t opt out. The two issues are not going to be decided together. It’ll be a whole other campaign.
    will it get the same kind of support from liberals as Repeal?
    or will that situation remain the same because men are 'privileged' and should be happy with what they have


  • #1233
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Its not murder. No matter how many times you try to insist, it simply isn't.

    what isnt murder?


  • #1234
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,174 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    what isnt murder?

    Trolling, apparently.


  • #1235
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    what isnt murder?

    Abortion isn't murder. Its what I presume you were talking about in the bolded part below, please clarify if not.

    kumate_champ07 wrote: »

    if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it

    murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.


  • #1236
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

    its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

    people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.


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  • #1237
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Trolling, apparently.
    who is? you think I'm trolling?


  • #1238
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,097 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    will it get the same kind of support from liberals as Repeal?
    or will that situation remain the same because men are 'privileged' and should be happy with what they have

    What percentage of the country are 'liberals'?
    Repeal has taken decades to get to about 50/50 support. So I think the job would be to make the case to the whole country. If you just want to focus on liberals you'll be neglecting the rest of the citizens.

    Likewise gays had to fight against the mainstream for decades to have their rights recognised. Don't expect other people to do the hard work for you. If you want to cause change, get out and start campaigning.

    Assuming that it's futile because liberals won't support you is lazy and simply doesn't cut it. If you care about the issue as much as you talk about it, get out and start turning the tide like the repeal movement and the gays did.


  • #1239
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

    its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

    people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

    No it isn't. If it was considered murder, we wouldn't have written it into our constitution to permit women to travel for abortions.
    That isn't just allowing it, or sweeping it under the carpet, we actually wrote it into our constitution that this is allowed.

    Surely if it were considered murder, we'd be prosecuting these women to the highest point of the law, for the crime of going abroad to cruelly execute an innocent child? Surely nothing would be too much trouble to prevent these callous murders from happening?
    Oh wait. We don't.

    Because aborting Irish children is absolutely fine, according to the Pro Lifers, so long as it doesn't happen in Ireland.
    Which is the biggest load of hypocritical NIMBYism whataboutery ever.


  • #1240
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    kumate_champ07 wrote:
    civilized society and the natural kingdom are separated by the 'law',

    kumate_champ07 wrote:
    the law is based on 'morals' - rules that were agreed upon so that we could decrease murder,stealing,and rape in our species, and try to live in harmony

    kumate_champ07 wrote:
    if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it

    kumate_champ07 wrote:
    murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.


    We're not voting on murder though are we?
    We're not even voting on abortion, we're voting on the 8th amendment.


  • #1241
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    kumate_champ07 wrote:
    abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

    Do we prosecute those who procure abortions as murderers?
    Murder has a specific definition abortion and murder are not the same thing


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  • #1242
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,174 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

    its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

    people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

    People want to change the law so this country joins the rest of the OECD countries that allow abortions and recognise the intrinsic human rights of women.

    Only women should have a say in whether they do or don't continue with a pregnancy. Men can also have a say if they find themselves pregnant, before anyone accuses me of insensitivity or bias.


  • #1243
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    We're not voting on murder though are we?
    We're not even voting on abortion, we're voting on the 8th amendment.

    Exactly. I don't believe a pre 12 week old fetus is of equal worth to me, unless I decide it to be so.
    In other words, if there are risks to my health, wellbeing, or life, and I am happy to continue with a pregnancy, that is on me.
    However I should be allowed to avoid those risks if I want to.
    At the moment I have no choice. The choice is made for me by the constitution.

    As a living, breathing woman my rights, wants, and needs, as well as those of any existing children I have, should be prioritised over that of a potential person. Unless I decide otherwise.
    Its no one else's decision but mine to make.

    Strangers on the internet know nothing of my life, my past, my health, my circumstances. Which is why its very hard for me to stomach that they would try to force me, or any woman, into a pregnancy she didn't want.
    Taking away choices from living people is absolutely not in the best interests of anyone.


  • #1244
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

    its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

    people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

    No it's not. It's not legal but it's a completely separate crime to murder in every way. There doesn't seem to be any public interest in jailing all these so called murderers which is telling enough in itself.


  • #1245
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,174 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    No it isn't. If it was considered murder, we wouldn't have written it into our constitution to permit women to travel for abortions.
    That isn't just allowing it, or sweeping it under the carpet, we actually wrote it into our constitution that this is allowed.

    Surely if it were considered murder, we'd be prosecuting these women to the highest point of the law, for the crime of going abroad to cruelly execute an innocent child? Surely nothing would be too much trouble to prevent these callous murders from happening?
    Oh wait. We don't.

    Because aborting Irish children is absolutely fine, according to the Pro Lifers, so long as it doesn't happen in Ireland.
    Which is the biggest load of hypocritical NIMBYism whataboutery ever.

    I really admire your position but it might be a lost cause. Ultimately, if the 8th isn't repealed, women should just emigrate to a civilised country and leave the Irish men to the abortion free society they want.


  • #1246
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    We're not voting on murder though are we?
    We're not even voting on abortion, we're voting on the 8th amendment.
    we're voting on something that was put in place and ignored. it would be better to stop ignoring whats there in the first place. The government should engage with the religious institutions that have been obstructing current legislation

    its legal for abortion in Ireland at the moment when it saves a mothers life


  • #1247
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    No it's not. It's not legal but it's a completely separate crime to murder in every way. There doesn't seem to be any public interest in jailing all these so called murderers which is telling enough in itself.
    the definition of murder is 'an unlawful killing'

    you can pretend to yourself that its not murder if that makes you feel better, but it doesnt change anything. the fact that it happens alot also doesnt change anything, or that there isnt enough enough prison space,police time & court time to pursue every case

    perhaps its just an acceptable type of murder. and one day it will be made legal in Ireland.


  • #1248
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    the definition of murder is 'an unlawful killing'

    you can pretend to yourself that its not murder if that makes you feel better, but it doesnt change anything. the fact that it happens alot also doesnt change anything, or that there isnt enough enough prison space,police time & court time to pursue every case

    perhaps its just an acceptable type of murder. and one day it will be made legal in Ireland.

    You might consider it murder but the law does not agree and most people don't agree. Otherwise we'd have people looking for those who have abortions to be jailed and I don't see anyone calling for that do you? Even women who break the law by having abortions here aren't being prosecuted despite the potential 14 yrs sentence. So what does that say? As someone who is open about having an abortion I've never had anyone close to me judge me over it, I can't imagine a similar reaction if I stabbed a person.


  • #1249
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You might consider it murder but the law does not agree and most people don't agree. Otherwise we'd have people looking for those who have abortions to be jailed and I don't see anyone calling for that do you? Even women who break the law by having abortions here aren't being prosecuted despite the potential 14 yrs sentence. So what does that say? As someone who is open about having an abortion I've never had anyone close to me judge me over it, I can't imagine a similar reaction if I stabbed a person.
    it says you didnt read everything I wrote


  • #1250
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    kumate_champ07 wrote:
    we're voting on something that was put in place and ignored. it would be better to stop ignoring whats there in the first place. The government should engage with the religious institutions that have been obstructing current legislation

    How is it being ignored?
    Also why should the government be engaging with religious institutions, they have no powers to block anything, neither should they but that's another conversation


  • #1251
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    it says you didnt read everything I wrote

    It's says your logic is bs. There is no public or state appetite to prosecute women because most people don't see it as that big a deal.


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  • #1252
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's says your logic is bs. There is no public or state appetite to prosecute women because most people don't see it as that big a deal.
    you might not agree with my logic, but I seem to be one of the few using logic

    a lot of people dont see that type of murder as a big deal


  • #1253
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    you might not agree with my logic, but I seem to be one of the few using logic

    a lot of people dont see that type of murder as a big deal

    What logic? You said women aren't prosecuted because of lack of resources. How do you know that's the reason? Wouldn't you think there would be the resources to charge even a few?

    If I went to my local garda station to 'confess' I'd be laughed out of it.


  • #1254
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    What logic? You said women aren't prosecuted because of lack of resources. How do you know that's the reason?Wouldn't you think there would be the resources to charge even a few?

    If I went to my local garda station to 'confess' I'd be laughed out of it.
    you left out this part that I wrote at the end
    "perhaps its just an acceptable type of murder."


  • #1255
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    you left out this part that I wrote at the end
    "perhaps its just an acceptable type of murder."

    It's acceptable because it's not murder.


  • #1256
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's acceptable because it's not murder.
    whats your definition of murder?


  • #1257
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    whats your definition of murder?

    The legal definition sums it up for me


  • #1258
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The legal definition sums it up for me
    which is?


  • #1259
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    do you prefer the word killing?


  • #1260
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    which is?

    Google it.


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  • #1261
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Google it.
    you lost your argument if you dont even know what the definition is


This discussion has been closed.
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