Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

irishbucsfan · 07-04-2018 12:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, that's all they have to do. It's that simple.

Ever wonder why RTE waited until after Kieran Creaven pleaded guilty before they sacked him?

Hint: because it's not that simple.

So that they made sure they were following all the very same fairness procedures that the IRFU would need to follow, as I said.

Squidgy Black · 07-04-2018 12:54PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, that's all they have to do. It's that simple.

Ever wonder why RTE waited until after Kieran Creaven pleaded guilty before they sacked him?

Hint: because it's not that simple.

The same way that the IRFU waited until after the verdict to say they were opening an internal review and not during the trial.

Dubinusa · 07-04-2018 01:03PM

My job over here has a "blue book" of conduct. It contains various types of conduct, but all of which if violated may lead to disciplinary action up to termination. It basically means that we are responsible for our conduct at all times.
If disciplined, i.e suspended, there is an appeals process and if a person is terminated, besides arbitration, it usually ends up in court.
Some people who have been fired, have won in court and returned to the job. Of course, the discipline would depend on the level of the violation committed by the employees.
All said, PJ and Olding may win in court and get their jobs back if they are released.
But, will this ever die down? Would it be worth it for them? They have put themselves in an awful position regarding their future.

07-04-2018 01:17PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So that they made sure they were following all the very same fairness procedures that the IRFU would need to follow, as I said.

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The same way that the IRFU waited until after the verdict to say they were opening an internal review and not during the trial.

Having a legal verdict makes a dismissal a relative formality, again most contracts will allow for automatic dismissal if you are guilty of a crime or unable to work due to incarceration. The absence of a guilty plea or verdict gives the IRFU nothing of the sort. Like RTE, they have the much more difficult task of not only proving reputational damage, but tying that reputational damage to the employee which isn't nearly as easy as it sounds.

The IRFU can sack Jackson on Monday if they want. That's not the point though, the point is what can they do without massively exposing themselves to being taken to the EAT by Jackson. This is why the 'bedroom' part is important.

Just to illustrate:

IRFU: Paddy, we are letting you go, you've brought Ulster rugby and the IRFU into disrepute in breach of your contractual agreements and obligations.

Paddy Jackson: Ok.

Paddy Jackson's Solicitor at the Employee appeals tribunal: Our client was the victim of a false / unproven accusation. His sex life is not a matter of concern for his employers and the incident occurred in the privacy of his bedroom. The messages which were sent were sent in private to a closed group of individuals and only became public knowledge due to circumstances outside of our clients control.

That will be the ballgame. The IRFU can sack Jackson whenever they want, they can't do it without consequence. The basis for his dismissal are actions that were done in private and are not illegal (or haven't been proven to be such).

07-04-2018 01:18PM

Dubinusa wrote: »

My job over here has a "blue book" of conduct. It contains various types of conduct, but all of which if violated may lead to disciplinary action up to termination. It basically means that we are responsible for our conduct at all times.
If disciplined, i.e suspended, there is an appeals process and if a person is terminated, besides arbitration, it usually ends up in court.
Some people who have been fired, have won in court and returned to the job. Of course, the discipline would depend on the level of the violation committed by the employees.
All said, PJ and Olding may win in court and get their jobs back if they are released.
But, will this ever die down? Would it be worth it for them? They have put themselves in an awful position regarding their future.

They won't get their jobs back, but they would be compensated for any actual loss and potentially for reputational damage, aggravated damages, loss of earning and future loss of earning amongst other things.

irishbucsfan · 07-04-2018 01:19PM

Alright, that will be the ball game so. Good stuff.

I very, very much look forward to Paddy Jackson's solicitor calling the accusation false. That would do wonders for his public image and make him all the more employable.

07-04-2018 01:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Alright, that will be the ball game so. Good stuff.

I very, very much look forward to Paddy Jackson's solicitor calling the accusation false. That would do wonders for his public image and make him all the more employable.

He already has, repeatedly? He said it directly to the complainant in court?

RuMan · 07-04-2018 02:26PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They won't get their jobs back, but they would be compensated for any actual loss and potentially for reputational damage, aggravated damages, loss of earning and future loss of earning amongst other things.

No way IRFU will want some sort of tribunal with all the media attention.
Either he will stay or the IRFU will give him a wedge of cash to go away.

Former Former · 07-04-2018 02:33PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He already has, repeatedly? He said it directly to the complainant in court?

But he won't say it again.

There is a world of difference between saying something in court, when all that matters is getting your client off, and saying something outside the court.

Jackson finally seems to be getting some decent PR advice. Let's hope he continues to take it. Going on the offensive again would be the height of stupidity.

07-04-2018 02:33PM

RuMan wrote: »

No way IRFU will want some sort of tribunal with all the media attention.
Either he will stay or the IRFU will give him a wedge of cash to go away.

Totally agree and this is what I think will happen. My point above is simply to illustrate that the IRFU can't just wave their hands and dismiss Jackson, legally they don't have a huge amount to go on.

It will be interesting to see the reaction if such a payment becomes public knowledge.

07-04-2018 02:37PM

Former Former wrote: »

But he won't say it again.

There is a world of difference between saying something in court, when all that matters is getting your client off, and saying something outside the court.

Jackson finally seems to be getting some decent PR advice. Let's hope he continues to take it. Going on the offensive again would be the height of stupidity.

I don't think Jackson will go on the offensive. I'm just saying if the IRFU dismissed him as flippantly as a few on here are suggesting they can, that he would have the basis of a strong case of unfair dismissal.

Whether he would take that case who knows, but the IRFU would have to factor the risk of such into their decision.

prawnsambo · 07-04-2018 03:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

He already has, repeatedly? He said it directly to the complainant in court?

Statements in court are privileged.

07-04-2018 04:21PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Statements in court are privileged.

Not to public perception.

prawnsambo · 07-04-2018 04:50PM

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

Not to public perception.

Not sure what you mean by that or whether you understand the meaniing of 'privilege'.

Dubinusa · 08-04-2018 02:19AM

I guess Cooney is Ulsters player of the year?
Great signing, think he may make the trip to OZ.
On the other hand, is Treadwell injured? He doesn't seem to be as good as last season. I think he must have had some niggles.
AOC also has been good. Cave was exiled by Kiss for a time, but he's been good lately.
Sad to see Bowe retire. Brilliant career and brilliant player. Next year may mark the end of Trimble and Henry's career.
All in all, changing of the guard in Belfast. Hope they get it right.

Utah_Saint · 08-04-2018 06:59AM

I'd say tread well is a combination of confidence and coaching. He's looked half the player he was. Yep, lots of players coming to the end. Hopefully we can manage it well and involve a few young bucks. We have 3 front row players I'd like to see more of in O'Toole, mcburney and ohagan. I agree on cooney as our best player.

08-04-2018 08:25AM

right this thread is getting bogged down in trial talk and legalese again warnings will be escalated if it carries on

stick to ulster and how any development specifically relates to ulster

baas baa · 08-04-2018 08:34AM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I'd say tread well is a combination of confidence and coaching. He's looked half the player he was. Yep, lots of players coming to the end. Hopefully we can manage it well and involve a few young bucks. We have 3 front row players I'd like to see more of in O'Toole, mcburney and ohagan. I agree on cooney as our best player.

Treadwell reminds me of Tuohy. Big lump, good athlete, when on form looks a test level player but when they're not the game passes them by. Might be lacking the bit of dog you need in the 2nd row. Treadwell is still only 22 though so best years should be well ahead of him.

bilston · 08-04-2018 08:57AM

Treadwell's hands let him down too often. If he could sort that out he'd make a good player.

As for Cave he needs to be signed up for next season and he needs to be our starting 13. It's madness that he isn't. Marshall and McCloskey can fight it out for the 12 position.

Cooney or Stockdale for player of the season. Probably Cooney given he has played more and has had big boots to fill.

Trimble's career has just fallen of a cliff. It happens sometimes. I seem to remember Henry starting the season well, I'm not sure what happened to him. I think a back row of Murphy, Reidy, Coetzee with Timoney possibly on the bench will be our matchday squad next season. I'm hoping we see someone like Hall, Dunleavy or Agnew come through next season as well.

jacothelad · 08-04-2018 09:39AM

Dubinusa wrote: »

I guess Cooney is Ulsters player of the year?
Great signing, think he may make the trip to OZ.
On the other hand, is Treadwell injured? He doesn't seem to be as good as last season. I think he must have had some niggles.
AOC also has been good. Cave was exiled by Kiss for a time, but he's been good lately.
Sad to see Bowe retire. Brilliant career and brilliant player. Next year may mark the end of Trimble and Henry's career.
All in all, changing of the guard in Belfast. Hope they get it right.

Cooney has been fantastic. An easy choice.

I think Treadwell is suffering from second season syndrome. He will come good. He has all the attributes to be a very high quality player. He is unlikely to ever become a player as good as James Ryan or Henderson but he might????, just different,,,time will tell. He is a big unit with a bit of pace and no little skill.....at least he showed this when he first arrived.
Alan O'Connor is a very integral part of Ulster. Not nor ever likely to be capped but a fine player.

Anyone with a bit of an analytical eye on a game will see exactly what Cave brings. It's no coincidence that Ulster have usually played better when he is in the backline and at 13 rather than 12 though he is good enough there also. It's probably also no coincidence that Ulster's backline defence was awful during his period in exile. Too many people just see his rather pedestrian pace and immediately dismiss him. It's also worth looking at his try scoring record. It will be instructive.

Tommy Bowe is a legend. Time is up though.....and for Trimble probaby...and Henry.

irishfan9 · 08-04-2018 09:51AM

leinster were all over treadwell when he was younger.. id say he'd be flying under leocasters coaching.

bilston · 08-04-2018 10:10AM

irishfan9 wrote: »

leinster were all over treadwell when he was younger.. id say he'd be flying under leocasters coaching.

He's being coached by Jono Gibbes at the moment who did alright with Leinster.

salmocab · 08-04-2018 10:12AM

irishfan9 wrote: »

leinster were all over treadwell when he was younger.. id say he'd be flying under leocasters coaching.

In fairness it would be easier to fly with a team thats flying than a team whose arses are bouncing along the ground

durthacht · 08-04-2018 10:22AM

bilston wrote: »

He's being coached by Jono Gibbes at the moment who did alright with Leinster.

In a fairly chaotic environment though.

Hands Like Flippers · 08-04-2018 11:03AM

Why is Trimble not even on the bench? He is being written off a big here but surely he could come on for 15 mins and close a game out. Don't think he would have been steam rollered like Ludik, who is a tough but in fairness

jacothelad · 08-04-2018 11:08AM

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Why is Trimble not even on the bench? He is being written off a big here but surely he could come on for 15 mins and close a game out. Don't think he would have been steam rollered like Ludik, who is a tough but in fairness

I don't think he has regressed as far as Bowe. He has been o.k.

irishfan9 · 08-04-2018 11:10AM

bilston wrote: »

He's being coached by Jono Gibbes at the moment who did alright with Leinster.

and?

just because he did a great job as forwards coach for leinster doesnt mean he is doing as good a job at ulster.

also under Gibbes leinster struggled to develop locks.. Treadwell is all potential, lancaster/leo have overlooked the development of a lot of players with potential.

jacothelad · 08-04-2018 11:28AM

durthacht wrote: »

In a fairly chaotic environment though.

Yes. That began with the fiasco with McLaughlin who demanded a job for life or he would go back to teaching. No club is going to make anyone Head coach for life unless there is one in Pyongyang.

Then there was the pay off to Anscombe. He was a decent coach and should never have been sacked. He may not have been clean living enough for Logan????Idiot.

Then this was compounded by the parachuting in of Kiss, a man who had never been within a gnat's chuff of running a major rugby club. Even his alleged skill area, defence - was appalling as were his stupid selections -like isolating Cave - and his crass idea that it was o.k. to 'not target' some games as winnable.

Then we had the squabbles and inability to work with each other between Clarke and Doak. Also the dismissive attitude towards young players that was there under Anscombe was also rife from one of them.....and I'm being polite when I use the word dismissive. The Academy may as well have been stuffed with bags of shyte instead of young guys wasting 3 years of their lives. I'm sure some of them would have made it at other academies. Ulster's is pretty rubbish to date.

Add in the dreadful signings such as Ruaridh Murphy and a stack of other useless pratts, almost too many to list who never got to wear the shirt but got well paid, simultaneously denuding the squad of available players. Then we have the awful injury list and to complete the perfect storm we have the trial. I think any side would struggle to survive all that steaming pile of ordure and continue successfully.

At least the trial fallout has been partially resolved. I imagine the mood has lightened somewhat in the squad as evidenced by the game on Friday night.

prawnsambo · 08-04-2018 11:37AM

jacothelad wrote: »

At least the trial fallout has been partially resolved. I imagine the mood has lightened somewhat in the squad as evidenced by the game on Friday night.

The real test is the next match. It doesn't have to be a win, but a consistent level of performance would be great. That seems to have been Ulster's problem all season with the only level of consistency coming at home. So a good away win followed by a strong showing at home against Ospreys would be a sign of change in the air. Hopefully.

baas baa · 08-04-2018 12:51PM

irishfan9 wrote: »

leinster were all over treadwell when he was younger.. id say he'd be flying under leocasters coaching.

Perhaps but 2nd rows enhancing their careers at Leinster has typically being the exception rather than the rule.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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