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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #1502
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    I seen some pics of her months ago from her various social media pages.

    Very racey and glamour model like wannabee.

    Who knows the real reason she sent with this allegation.

    We'll never know but people are forming all sorts of theories so anything is possible.


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    #1503
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    washman3 wrote: »
    Good post. When the judge informed the jury that she would only accept a unanimous verdict the writing was on the wall.
    For the men to be found guilty, all 11 jurors would have to agree.
    Is it entirely possible that a few jurors or maybe just a single one insisted from the outset that his/her mind was made up and wasn't for turning so a unanimous guilty verdict wasn't possible.
    It is extremely unlikely that all 11 jurors agreed the defendants were not guilty.
    Maybe a juror will give a 'tabloid interview' in the future.

    A unanimous verdict either way, so yes all 11 jury members did find the four men not guilty after just 3-4 hours of deliberating.


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    #1504
    recyclops
    Registered Users Posts: 2,374 ✭✭✭recyclops


    Teyla Emmagan wrote: »
    I have to say if I was that young woman, and went through all of that to lose the case, I would be on suicide watch right now. I do think she felt she was raped. I hope she has very good care right now, this must be devastating.

    The same could be said for the men involved, if they are truly innocent and are now looking at trends on social media, the island commentating on how they "got away with it" how not guilty is not innocent. Planned protests Island wide to disagree with the verdict.

    If you were innocent it would be a bleak future you see for yourself.


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    #1505
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    We'll never know but people are forming all sorts of theories so anything is possible.

    Not really, Other peoples opinion are but opinion.
    You must have some opinion yourself, at least that's what your original post implied, share?


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    #1506
    alchemist33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,969 ✭✭✭✭alchemist33


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    We'll never know but people are forming all sorts of theories so anything is possible.

    You've accidentally quoted yourself there


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    #1507
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    padser wrote: »
    A jury coming back that quickly generally means there was no dissenting jurors (ie no one on the fence) and that all jurors regarded it as "open and shut"

    Don't forget that judges tell juries they must go through all the evidence before making a decision, so 3 hours for 8 weeks evidence really is them saying "we are absolutely of one mind here"

    It is possible they were all unsure, then they have to acquit. That means all four are not guilty, therefore innocent.
    That can happen and still the accuser be totally right in her perception too.
    No winners here I feel.


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    #1508
    tigger123
    Registered Users Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    We'll never know but people are forming all sorts of theories so anything is possible.

    Think you mixed your multiple accounts there buddy.


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    #1509
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    SlickRic wrote: »
    I love that every person on social media knows what happened that night, despite pretty much every account being different.

    Why can't more people just simply say:
    'I don't know what happened.'

    There's no shame in saying 'I don't know'.

    Because social media is all about virtue signalling and being able to point to something when something else happens and go "look! see..... I supported her back then cus I KNEW she was right"

    Aodhann o Riordann's moronic tweet was literally cheap virtue signalling wrapped up in garbage stereotyping in a pathetic attempt to get some future votes


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    #1510
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    I seen some pics of her months ago from her various social media pages.

    Very racey and glamour model like wannabee.

    Who knows the real reason she sent with this allegation.

    Seriously we are getting into the time machine and going back to the 'sure she was wearing a short skirt' asking for it nonsense. Oral rape does exist someone smaller weaker can be dominated and forced by another.


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    #1511
    C__MC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭C__MC


    I’m not buying the whole trauma/frozen thing myself. If the lads are continuously labelled liars and so on, the woman was no better.
    Here is a few reasons, She initially wasn’t sure how oldings penis got in her mouth then she states “I’m nearly sure it was forced.” She took olding to the point of ejaculation. She couldn’t account for DF popping her head in “claimed it slipped her mind”. She may have been frozen but yet still has no how to worry about a photo being taken and turned her head away. If she was really frozen and unable to look for help , how come she could shout “how many times does it take for a girl to say no”? She also went back to the house for her phone.


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    #1512
    Adamocovic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    Seen quite a few posts on social media by people I know by now. Getting into a debate with them is pointless so I'll vent here.

    Firstly, I'm sure were all sick of people from the Republic saying the Irish Government has let down Irish women, we had no say in this to my knowledge, bring that complaint up with Northern Irish Law.

    Secondly, seems most online are more worried about what affect this may have on rape victims decisions to come forward rather than whether the jury made the right call with the evidence, testimonies and witnesses they were presented.

    I agree that people coming forward should be safe to do so, and their anonymity should be kept unless is undoubtedly clear the story was fabricated. Also think the accused should remain anonymous unless given a guilty verdict. But I can't get on board with the idea of the #IBelieveHer movement. It's one thing people saying they believe she thought she was raped, but to disregard the findings of a court of law as false based solely on the fact you believe her, and calling the accused rapists seems ridiculously wrong in my opinion.

    Now this isn't all the people, but a lot of people on social media are going with this angle. Again I understand the main idea behind it all about protecting the people coming forward making the accusation, but in this instance I actually believe the accused, although found not-guilty in court, are facing worse treatment on social media. It really is an interesting one.


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    #1513
    Vladimir Poontang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Vladimir Poontang


    What "rape victim" goes back to the scene on her own to get her phone.

    The whole case is laughable


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    #1514
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    It's crazy to see some of the stuff on social media.

    Disappointing that a lot of people out there don't realise that the Republic and Northern Ireland are two different jurisdictions. Shows a terrible level of ignorance on that alone.

    I said to the wife yesterday that the only verdict to satisfy media and social media would be a guilty one, regardless of what happened. Looks like I was right.


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    #1515
    Deusexmachina
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    You're very sure that she lied, can you speculate as to the reason you believe she lied?

    Sure. She very clearly stated that the sex was not consensual. She confirmed that consistently under cross examination. She said tht Olding forced her to have oral sex with her. She said the third guy exposed himself to her.

    Now, after a long trial and a very fair and balanced set of instructions from the judge, the jury found the men not guilty.

    If they are not guilty then the sex was in fact consensual. Therefore, her account was false in that regard.

    If the jury had found them guilty, I would be equally clear that the men were lying.

    This was the key question in the whole trial - who to believe - them or her. The jury believed them. I accept the jury's decision.

    That does not mean I am not absolutely disgusted by the men's behaviour. I am - totally.

    But I also think her attempt to get these men imprisoned for rape was wrong. They did not rape her. She has 'no regrets' - well that speaks for itself.


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    #1516
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    The witness at the door as far as I'm concerned put them in the room together and no, more, not enough time to be able to form an opinion of consent.

    The Blane problem is troubling and I don't think he should have gotten off there are way too many inconsistencies about where he was.

    I thought olding would be convicted she could well have said 'not him as well' as things were getting out of control, it's not inconceivable that someone who had as much as he had to drink would ignore that and do whatever they wanted or even not understand the plea to go away.

    The amount of time they spent on the stand versus the amount she spent on the stand is strange also the whole meeting in the cafe the next day without phones so they couldn't be placed at that location together, but they weren't there to talk about the night before?


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    #1517
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,806 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Oaklyn Early Fauna wrote:
    I said to the wife yesterday that the only verdict to satisfy media and social media would be a guilty one, regardless of what happened. Looks like I was right.


    Media and Social media would never be happy, no matter what the outcome


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    #1518
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    The thing that really bugs me is the stuff along the lines of "of course they got off they are rugby players"

    That specifically just shows the people making those comments have an issue with the lads and rugby/sports in general and don't really care about the girl or the facts of the case.


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    #1519
    mimimcmc
    Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭mimimcmc


    Just wondering if someone can clarify something for me...
    I've seen a lot of people saying "I beliver her.. why would you put yourself through all of that etc." But I thought I heard them say on the Matt Cooper show that it wasn't her that brought the case forward and pressed charges? Who was it? and that means she would not have known how big this was gonna get?


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    #1520
    C__MC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭C__MC


    mimimcmc wrote: »
    Just wondering if someone can clarify something for me...
    I've seen a lot of people saying "I beliver her.. why would you put yourself through all of that etc." But I thought I heard them say on the Matt Cooper show that it wasn't her that brought the case forward and pressed charges? Who was it? and that means she would not have known how big this was gonna get?

    Not 100 per cent sure but I think it’s called the PPS. It probably was out of her hands once she reported it but she couldn’t back down either.


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    #1521
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    wait what?


    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/rally-protesting-belfast-rape-trial-verdict-to-be-held-in-dublin/ar-BBKPddt?li=AAmb2oK&ocid=spartandhp

    Rally protesting Belfast rape trial verdict to be held in Dublin

    According to the organisers of the Dublin event: "The feminist movement is calling a rally in response to the impact of the recent rape trial in Belfast.

    "This event is for those who cannot make the rally at Belfast High Court. Brings signs and placards to show your support.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #1522
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    silverharp wrote: »
    wait what?


    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/rally-protesting-belfast-rape-trial-verdict-to-be-held-in-dublin/ar-BBKPddt?li=AAmb2oK&ocid=spartandhp

    The rape crisis center may have valid concerns about how the case was conducted. Can ye not wait to get more information?


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    #1523
    C__MC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭C__MC


    silverharp wrote: »
    wait what?


    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/rally-protesting-belfast-rape-trial-verdict-to-be-held-in-dublin/ar-BBKPddt?li=AAmb2oK&ocid=spartandhp

    You literally couldn’t make it up.


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    #1524
    gargargar
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭gargargar


    Deusexmachina wrote: »
    If they are not guilty then the sex was in fact consensual. Therefore, her account was false in that regard.

    If the jury had found them guilty, I would be equally clear that the men were lying.

    This was the key question in the whole trial - who to believe - them or her. The jury believed them. I accept the jury's decision.

    This is absolutely incorrect. What was found that they are not guilty, not that the sex was consensual. They had to prove rape beyond all reasonable doubt. This high standard was not met so they were acquitted.

    This explains the reason for the #IBelieveHer her movement.
    Adamocovic wrote: »
    But I can't get on board with the idea of the #IBelieveHer movement. It's one thing people saying they believe she thought she was raped, but to disregard the findings of a court of law as false based solely on the fact you believe her, and calling the accused rapists seems ridiculously wrong in my opinion.

    I think people are saying that on the balance of the evidence they believe her even if there are some doubts.


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    #1525
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    The rape crisis center may have valid concerns about how the case was conducted. Can ye not wait to get more information?

    equally - could the rally not wait until these concerns were made public?


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    #1526
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Deusexmachina wrote: »
    Sure. She very clearly stated that the sex was not consensual. She confirmed that consistently under cross examination. She said tht Olding forced her to have oral sex with her. She said the third guy exposed himself to her.

    Now, after a long trial and a very fair and balanced set of instructions from the judge, the jury found the men not guilty.

    If they are not guilty then the sex was in fact consensual. Therefore, her account was false in that regard.

    If the jury had found them guilty, I would be equally clear that the men were lying.

    This was the key question in the whole trial - who to believe - them or her. The jury believed them. I accept the jury's decision.

    That does not mean I am not absolutely disgusted by the men's behaviour. I am - totally.

    But I also think her attempt to get these men imprisoned for rape was wrong. They did not rape her. She has 'no regrets' - well that speaks for itself.

    They only proved they weren't guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They aren't innocent beyond reasonable doubt either.


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    #1527
    Will I Am Not
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Will I Am Not


    silverharp wrote: »
    wait what?


    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/rally-protesting-belfast-rape-trial-verdict-to-be-held-in-dublin/ar-BBKPddt?li=AAmb2oK&ocid=spartandhp

    Welcome to the present day. Where democracy and decisions in a court of law are to be protested if they don’t come to the “right” decision.


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    #1528
    Appledreams15
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Appledreams15


    Mass protests about rape in Ireland today. We are akin to India now.

    Hopefully this shines an international spotlight on the shameful way that women are treated in Ireland.

    When you have mass protests about rape, you"ve got to start looking at yourselves.


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    #1529
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    gargargar wrote: »
    I think people are saying that on the balance of the evidence they believe her even if there are some doubts.

    From the disgusting comments ive read i would completely disagree with this statement.

    Many people using that hashtag would be of the opinion they should go to jail for the whatsapp messages alone


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    #1530
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Deusexmachina wrote: »

    Now, after a long trial and a very fair and balanced set of instructions from the judge, the jury found the men not guilty.

    If they are not guilty then the sex was in fact consensual. Therefore, her account was false in that regard.

    If the jury had found them guilty, I would be equally clear that the men were lying.

    This was the key question in the whole trial - who to believe - them or her. The jury believed them. I accept the jury's decision.

    That does not mean I am not absolutely disgusted by the men's behaviour. I am - totally.

    But I also think her attempt to get these men imprisoned for rape was wrong. They did not rape her. She has 'no regrets' - well that speaks for itself.

    ?

    Failing to prove that these lads were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt does not prove that anyone was lying at all..


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    #1531
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    Mass protests about rape in Ireland today. We are akin to India now.

    Hopefully this shines an international spotlight on the shameful way that women are treated in Ireland.

    When you have mass protests about rape, you"ve got to start looking at yourselves.

    The case was in NI though???

    Whats shameful about due process? Or is it that the right verdict wasn't given?


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