Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

UnknownSpecies · 28-03-2018 11:15pm

Seeing a lot of chat on twitter in the tune of "look at the people defending the verdict - all men bla bla bla". Have to laugh at the irony of them accusing men of jumping to other mens aid just because of their gender :rolleyes:

spookwoman · 28-03-2018 11:16pm

almostover wrote: »

Don't think there can be a retrial without new evidence? Isn't that double jeopardy?

Yep new evidence and looks like might be able to use "bad character".
They may also be able to appeal if they believe the judge acted wrongly

PhlegmyMoses · 28-03-2018 11:16pm

Strazdas wrote: »

The theory that the woman made up the story because she feared she had been filmed and it would be uploaded to social media simply doesn't hold up. Such footage never showed up anywhere, either on social media or in the press or with the police. She could have withdrawn the complaint at any point.

She said that she didn't ask the girls for help because she feared she would be filmed. She introduced this theory.

Again, slightly hazy on details as it's been a long case so correct me if I'm wrong. I also don't agree with the theory, just talking about where it comes from.

Mr.H · 28-03-2018 11:16pm

UnknownSpecies wrote: »

Seeing a lot of chat on twitter in the tune of "look at the people defending the verdict - all men bla bla bla". Have to laugh at the irony of them accusing men of jumping to other mens aid just because of their gender :rolleyes:

You better be careful or youll be accused of rape :rolleyes:

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-03-2018 11:18pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

i thought it a case of her maybe going too far in the heat of the moment, and possibly thinking she was about to be shamed by your wan (Dara Florence) that walked in on them, which rapidly caused her to reevaluate her position.

From standing, to being on her back ?

Potatoeman · 28-03-2018 11:18pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

if the sex was non consensual, and the lads acquitted due to insufficient evidence, i.e. "they got off", I feel genuinely very sorry for her.

Obviously I wasn't in the room, so I dont know the facts, only what was reported, but from my following of the case, i thought it a case of her maybe going too far in the heat of the moment, and possibly thinking she was about to be shamed by your wan (Dara Florence) that walked in on them, which rapidly caused her to reevaluate her position. I dont think the lads believed they were raping her.

Threesomes happen all the time, & "lads" message each other about their sexual activities all the time. it does not make a rape.

The CPS and detectives have a lot to answer for, how did they expect this to go, when the only witness not involved in the sex, saying that it appeared consensual, and did not look like rape. I see they're praising her "resolve and confidence" in the media. did they anticipate this would happen but thought it would suit some agenda, and not give a whit about their complainant in the process.
this shouldn't have got near a court.

Could you imagine the outcry if it came out that this claim was made and they didn’t charge these guys. Even if her story didn’t match up it’s far easier for them to allow a jury make that decision.

_Dara_ · 28-03-2018 11:19pm

storker wrote: »

It's a difficult one though. I'm thinking of the OJ Simpson trial, where it seemed pretty clear that he did it and yet I could understand why a not guilty verdict came in. Of course there were some big differences between this trial and the Simpson-Goldman murders, such as the nature of the crime and the background of racial tension.

The OJ Simpson trial was truly exceptional though, a circus. It was an aberration fueled by the racial tensions of the day. This case is much more prosaic. I think the comparison isn’t that useful. The not guilty verdict was farcical in the OJ case and there was so much manipulation eg. jury selection.

Ace2007 · 28-03-2018 11:19pm

Mr.H wrote: »

Probably isnt. You could remove the line about her friend (which has been pointed out wasnt her friend) and it probably is close to the truth.

There are three outcomes it had to have been

1) she set the lads up
2) she was up for it. The story somehow was escalated into a rape claim
3) she was raped

They are the only outcomes that can exist. The third one was ruled out by a jury who hear ALL THE EVIDENCE. So that just leaves two options remaining.

My made up story is pretty much the second answer (bar the part about the woman being her friend)

Only one person was on trial for rape though,

What about the 3rd lad who said she gave him oral sex, this despite the girl, Jackson and Olding saying this did not happen.

You mention that the jury hear all the evidence, this is not true, they hear the evidence that is permitted, there was a lot of legal argument in this trial.

givyjoe · 28-03-2018 11:20pm

storker wrote: »

It's a difficult one though. I'm thinking of the OJ Simpson trial, where it seemed pretty clear that he did it and yet I could understand why a not guilty verdict came in. Of course there were some big differences between this trial and the Simpson-Goldman murders, such as the nature of the crime and the background of racial tension.

Yes, including the fact there were two dead bodies ffs! so you know, there was conclusive
proof that the crime did actually take place. That along with Ojs history of domestic violence and going on the run. Even mentioning that case in relation to this trial is utterly moronic. People, mindbogglingly, seem to be making the leap "well OJ did it, and he was found not.guilty, so ipso fatso, so is Paddy"

oneilla · 28-03-2018 11:20pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

if the sex was non consensual, and the lads acquitted due to insufficient evidence, i.e. "they got off", I feel genuinely very sorry for her.

Obviously I wasn't in the room, so I dont know the facts, only what was reported, but from my following of the case, i thought it a case of her maybe going too far in the heat of the moment, and possibly thinking she was about to be shamed by your wan (Dara Florence) that walked in on them, which rapidly caused her to reevaluate her position. I dont think the lads believed they were raping her.

Threesomes happen all the time, & "lads" message each other about their sexual activities all the time. it does not make a rape.

The CPS and detectives have a lot to answer for, how did they expect this to go, when the only witness not involved in the sex, saying that it appeared consensual, and did not look like rape. I see they're praising her "resolve and confidence" in the media. did they anticipate this would happen but thought it would suit some agenda, and not give a whit about their complainant in the process.
this shouldn't have got near a court.

I find the "insufficient evidence" thing odd since there have been convictions of assault and rape with less evidence.

Unless a juror or jurors comment publicly we won't really know what led to a unanimous verdict of not guilty.

28-03-2018 11:20pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Scientists believe it is real. I am not an expert so cannot outright prove it to you, but I will take my chances with what the scientists are telling me.

Actually, this is not the thread for this :pac:

My point is that RTE lack integrity and this is doing more harm to Women in general by their blatant content for Men and how they reported this evening on Prime Time.

I was trying to get the point across about RTE's one sided views and lack of impartibility and only report what they think is popular opinion, only interview people that fit their agenda who will report only what RTE basically want reported they need to be shut down but they are not alone.

It's this liberal movement.

Next Women will have special hot lines in offices to complain against men like they do is it in Sweden ? yes a Woman can actually complain about a man for mansplaining in Sweden.

Strazdas · 28-03-2018 11:20pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

She said that she didn't ask the girls for help because she feared she would be filmed. She introduced this theory.

Again, slightly hazy on details as it's been a long case so correct me if I'm wrong. I also don't agree with the theory, just talking about where it comes from.

Yes indeed, but that was merely an explanation as to why she says she didn't call out for help.

It was the defence lawyers who introduced the theory she made the whole thing up as she feared that video of the incident would appear on social media.

holyhead · 28-03-2018 11:21pm

I think society needs to take a long hard look at how men see women. I think men need to show women more respect. A drunk woman should never be seen as an easy target for sex. If anything, respect should demand she be brought to a place of safety to sleep off her hangover not taken advantage of. Although legally cleared, what the men did was morally reprehensible.
As has been said there are no winners in this tragic case. Hope the girl can pick up the pieces and get on with life. As for the men well their reputation, whatever it amounted too, is destroyed. Silly boys.

NAGDEFI · 28-03-2018 11:21pm

Has anyone come across the site below? Just came upon it yesterday. Talk about a bunch of ignorant neanderthals. It seems to be an incestuous little clique. It's actual comedy to read it.

:eek:

https://tfk.thefreekick.com/t/rugby-players-rape-trial/25773/1977

The Talking Bread · 28-03-2018 11:22pm

storker wrote: »

It seems a bit strange alright, because if this is true, we have presumption of innocence as per the constitution, until guilt is proven, but once a not guilty verdict is delivered, the accused status changes from "innocent" to just "not guilty", which sounds a bit like the verdict of "not proven" that exists in Scottish law, but not Irish law, as far as I know. Surely it makes more sense, and is consistent with the wording of the principle for "innocent" to remain the default status in the absence of a guilty verdict i.e. the accused began the trial innocent, guilt was not proven, so they're still innocent. More logical than having the accused begin the trial innocent, be found not guilty and having their status changed to some kind of not-guilty-but-not-innocent-either twilight zone.

(A bit like OJ Simpson, hmmm...)

Perhaps there is confusion in terms of what meant by "innocent" i.e. innocent in the eyes of the law vs absolutely 100% did not commit the crime. Maybe people should be clearer about what they mean when they use the word.

But you can't say, in a case like this, a trial of 9 weeks put to a jury, that Not Guilty = Factually Innocent ie =Definitely didn't happen.

That is the point of the mantra of "Not Guilty by jury trial does not equate to innocent"

In fact Jackson et al are lucky that the standard of proof is for the jury being required to decide is not whether they are "INNOCENT beyond reasonable doubt". They are not the same thing. The outcome could and indeed would have probably been very different.

BBDBB · 28-03-2018 11:23pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Has anyone come across the site below? Just came upon it yesterday. Talk about a bunch of ignorant neanderthals. It seems to be an incestuous little clique. It's actual comedy to read it.

:eek:

https://tfk.thefreekick.com/t/rugby-players-rape-trial/25773/1977

seems pretty similar to this thread to me

Sidebaro · 28-03-2018 11:24pm

Mr.H wrote:

There are three outcomes it had to have been

Objection! A fourth outcome - both sides opinion of whether it was consent or not differed. I'm sure there are many other outcomes.

PhlegmyMoses · 28-03-2018 11:25pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes indeed, but that was merely an explanation as to why she says she didn't call out for help.

It was the defence lawyers who introduced the theory she made the whole thing up as she feared that video of the incident would appear on social media.

But she said it herself right, that she had been in gear of being filmed so didn't ask the girls for help? And the defence lawyers used it against her then.

Strazdas · 28-03-2018 11:27pm

brendanwalsh wrote: »

I think olding's statement gives is telling of the events. Where he mentions she gave her "perception of events". I imagine what happened was the boys were liquored up. Your one gets intimate with jackson. Then the gang bang team arrives and it's never clarified with the girl if she's ok with that. The boys get stuck in while she starts to panic over something she didn't sign up for.

They probably all believe their own version of what happened

If this version is correct, the men were partly to blame for their own downfall. The complainant never verbally agreed to sex with several men and there's nothing to indicate that was on her mind when she was initially with Paddy Jackson. They were really pushing their luck by entering the bedroom when she had done nothing earlier to encourage this.

PhlegmyMoses · 28-03-2018 11:27pm

holyhead wrote: »

I think society needs to take a long hard look at how men see women. I think men need to show women more respect. A drunk woman should never be seen as an easy target for sex. If anything, respect should demand she be brought to a place of safety to sleep off her hangover not taken advantage of. Although legally cleared, what the men did was morally reprehensible.
As has been said there are no winners in this tragic case. Hope the girl can pick up the pieces and get on with life. As for the men well their reputation, whatever it amounted too, is destroyed. Silly boys.

She wasn't drunk though. She said so herself. 3 doubles and a glass of wine over a number of hours. The guys were locked though.

28-03-2018 11:27pm

holyhead wrote: »

I think society needs to take a long hard look at how men see women. I think men need to show women more respect. A drunk woman should never be seen as an easy target for sex. If anything, respect should demand she be brought to a place of safety to sleep off her hangover not taken advantage of. Although legally cleared, what the men did was morally reprehensible.
As has been said there are no winners in this tragic case. Hope the girl can pick up the pieces and get on with life. As for the men well their reputation, whatever it amounted too, is destroyed. Silly boys.

Respect is a 2 way street, none of them had respect for themselves or each other .

And the Woman had no respect for herself or the men,

Seems to me more like she was up for a bit of a good time with the boys and was afraid they were going to video it.

Basically the whole lot of them are f1cking idiots.

Society needs to respect all and it needs to teach people to respect themselves first and treat others as they would like to be treated.

The likes of the trial and RTE's reporting tonight just highlighted societies disrespect and content for Men and that is not good for anyone.

It's all about Men against Women, Women against Men, I'm sick to death of it.

storker · 28-03-2018 11:28pm

_Dara_ wrote: »

The OJ Simpson trial was truly exceptional though, a circus. It was an aberration fueled by the racial tensions of the day. This case is much more prosaic.

...as I said.

I think the comparison isn’t that useful.

It's not meant to be "useful", whatever that means. It's just that when mulling over the not-guilty vs innocent debate (and as far as I can see, not guilty means they are innocent), I remembered the Simpson case where he was found not guilty but I still believed he did it.

PhlegmyMoses · 28-03-2018 11:29pm

Strazdas wrote: »

If this version is correct, the men were partly to blame for their own downfall. The complainant never verbally agreed to sex with several men and there's nothing to indicate that was on her mind when she was initially with Paddy Jackson. They were really pushing their luck by entering the bedroom when she had done nothing earlier to encourage this.

That version isn't correct. It is more fan fiction with no basis in the actual facts from the case. Again, filling in the gaps in the story to suit your agenda.

Doltanian · 28-03-2018 11:31pm

All this outrage over an alleged assault in which the defendants were found not guilty. Mass rapes are occurring every single day in Germany and Sweden by economic migrants abusing the asylum process posing as refugees. Where is the hashtags for that? Where is the Twitter controversy? Where is the Protests? There is none because in the eyes of the leftist feminists and their male zetacuck supporters it is only White Men especially Middle Class men who are the demons of society to be punished and marginalised. I'm happy the four lads had their good names cleared and I feel sorry for the real victims of sexual assault who get hurt and reminded of their ordeals because of it.

c.p.w.g.w · 28-03-2018 11:31pm

A really fear for the future...I've had a number sexual partners were consent was assumed and there was a good bit of alcohol involved...But in this new world I'd probably be guilty of rape.

Next up consent contracts...Or potentially rewriting laws to suit unhappy women who think men are all evil.

suicide_circus · 28-03-2018 11:32pm

holyhead wrote: »

I think society needs to take a long hard look at how men see women. I think men need to show women more respect. A drunk woman should never be seen as an easy target for sex. If anything, respect should demand she be brought to a place of safety to sleep off her hangover not taken advantage of. Although legally cleared, what the men did was morally reprehensible.
As has been said there are no winners in this tragic case. Hope the girl can pick up the pieces and get on with life. As for the men well their reputation, whatever it amounted too, is destroyed. Silly boys.

I think women are autonomous human beings with agency and control over their own destinies. The idea that they are merely shrinking violets subject to the whims and fancies of men and perpetual victims is positively Victorian and bears no relation to any of the women in my life.

retro:electro · 28-03-2018 11:32pm

Strazdas wrote: »

The theory that the woman made up the story because she feared she had been filmed and it would be uploaded to social media simply doesn't hold up. Such footage never showed up anywhere, either on social media or in the press or with the police. She could have withdrawn the complaint at any point.

It makes no sense. Oh let me pretend I was raped to save face that I had a threesome, where I’ll be hauled through the court having to defend every sexual interaction I’ve ever had and have pictures of my vagina passed around.

washman3 · 28-03-2018 11:32pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I'm not surprised. There was so much muddying of the waters here, it was hard to know who to believe. I honestly don't know if justice has been served but it was always going to be a big ask to have a unanimous verdict. It has probably been an eye opener for some people into how rugby players behave though. Something tells me this wasn't their first time round the block when it came to having young ladies vie for their attention.

Good post. When the judge informed the jury that she would only accept a unanimous verdict the writing was on the wall.
For the men to be found guilty, all 11 jurors would have to agree.
Is it entirely possible that a few jurors or maybe just a single one insisted from the outset that his/her mind was made up and wasn't for turning so a unanimous guilty verdict wasn't possible.
It is extremely unlikely that all 11 jurors agreed the defendants were not guilty.
Maybe a juror will give a 'tabloid interview' in the future.

PhlegmyMoses · 28-03-2018 11:33pm

Global warming, Islam bashing and zetacucks in a thread about an unfortunate event with no winners. I'm out.

Sidebaro · 28-03-2018 11:33pm

Deleted User wrote:

The likes of the trial and RTE's reporting tonight just highlighted societies disrespect and content for Men and that is not good for anyone.

Societies disrespect and contempt for men? Your name suits you.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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