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Is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

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  • Options
    #302
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Irish Rail's reservation system only guarantees passengers a ticket to travel and the customer making the reservation is made aware before making payment.

    The seat is an extra provided:
    *Reservation System is Operating
    "Fellow Customers Kindness

    I agree people should move if required but IE have a duty to sort the problem out and the issue for the most part wouldn't exist. If they don't the NTA must penalize them via fares or contracts.

    Case Closed.
    Nonsense, what's the story with those that reserved seat only?


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    #303
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I agree they have but a lot of are just than bothered. Try find a host on a Cork train when you need them and you would see what I mean.



    Nope, it's extreme but does not change the fact you cannot be forced form you seat. The guards would not move the passenger either.

    It's not your seat though is it.


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    #304
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    They don't give a refund if you don't get your reserved seat. They give you a refund if they don't give you your reserved seat and you don't get a different seat as it is part of their Charter.

    They do.

    They only give the refund if you don't get your seat and no other seat is available, if you don't get your reserved seat and you get another seat then there is no entitlement to any refund other than any fee paid for the seat reservation itself if applicable.

    That is their policy.


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    #305
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Nonsense, what's the story with those that reserved seat only?

    They are not obliged to provide that seat or any seat as per the T&Cs.


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    #306
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    They are not obliged to provide that seat or any seat as per the T&Cs.

    No point in the reserve seat only option then


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    #307
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,681 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    No point in the reserve seat only option then

    Its typical Irish Rail all the same.


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    #308
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Its typical Irish Rail all the same.

    Nope.


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    #309
    mutedtempest
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭mutedtempest


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    You are just looking for excuses now for not to take a train that you had no intention of taking in the first place.
    Those seats are not handicap seats, anyone can sit in them but priority should be given to anyone with mobility issues.

    o...kay? Sorry, but I'm not looking for excuses. I'm basing this on experiences I've had multiple time, sorry that I don't want to deal with it. I would love to take a train but it doesn't seem worth the hassle.

    And I realize they're not exclusively for handicapped people, but as you say, priority should be given to those with issues. This is posted on the signs on transit. However, in reality it doesn't really matter if someone's insisting on not moving.


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    #310
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    There are a number of visually impaired passengers travelling on trains across the network without any hassle. Some have no sight and need no help and travel at will, some ask for assistance which they get. All without fuss or hassle.
    You said you are basing it on past experiences, was that on trains here?


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    #311
    mutedtempest
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭mutedtempest


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    There are a number of visually impaired passengers travelling on trains across the network without any hassle. Some have no sight and need no help and travel at will, some ask for assistance which they get. All without fuss or hassle.
    You said you are basing it on past experiences, was that on trains here?

    Again, I realize this. And I have never taken a train here, but due to several of the responses in this thread I'm a bit wary to do so.

    My experiences on based on Bus Eireann services in Limerick and Cork.

    I'm not an idiot, I simply don't feel like having people be upset with me when I ask them if I can sit in a designated seat.


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    #312
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,681 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    mutedtempest wrote: »
    Again, I realize this. And I have never taken a train here, but due to several of the responses in this thread I'm a bit wary to do so.

    My experiences on based on Bus Eireann services in Limerick and Cork.

    I'm not an idiot, I simply don't feel like having people be upset with me when I ask them if I can sit in a designated seat.

    Dealing with passengers with reduced mobility is one of the few things Irish Rail do very well.
    Nope.

    Really? It would not be unusual for Irish Rail to launch poorly taught out products/services and then take years to address problems.


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    #313
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Any experience on a bus or responses on a discussion board doesn't mean that experience will carry over onto a different mode of public transport.


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    #314
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Dealing with passengers with reduced mobility is one of the few things Irish Rail do very well.



    Really? It would not be unusual for Irish Rail to launch poorly taught out products/services and then take years to address problems.

    Na, if they sell the seat only option for the likes of those on free travel then surely they wouldn't turn around then and say thanks for the money, we don't now have to reserve a seat for you.
    Irish rail look to save money at every opportunity so wouldn't give refunds for when the reservation system has failed and you didn't get a seat if they knew they could legally refuse to.

    On a separate issue regarding reservations, from the end of March it seems you won't be able to pay a supplement to travel on a service outside of the type of ticket you bought. If you paid the low fare ticket, you will have to buy a new ticket. Same with the semi flexible if it's not the service prior or after the one you booked. If you came down from Belfast on a web fare then it will be a new ticket. If you find that you want to go home at a different time than what's on your ticket then check out the price for a semi or flexible ticket online for a later train which would allow you to travel at the time you want. Basically before you buy a new ticket at the ticket office, check if it's cheaper online and go for the cheapest option that suits.


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    #315
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Na, if they sell the seat only option for the likes of those on free travel then surely they wouldn't turn around then and say thanks for the money, we don't now have to reserve a seat for you.

    That's exactly what they say under the T&Cs of the reservation!


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Irish rail look to save money at every opportunity so wouldn't give refunds for when the reservation system has failed and you didn't get a seat if they knew they could legally refuse to.

    Of course they could legally refuse to if they wanted, as per the T&Cs they are only legally required to refund any fee associated with the reservation (you pay for a ticket to travel, not specifically to sit), however they offer the full refund if you don't get another seat in accordance with their Charter, nothing requires them to do this legally.


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    #316
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    That's exactly what they say under the T&Cs of the reservation!





    Of course they could legally refuse to if they wanted, as per the T&Cs they are only legally required to refund any fee associated with the reservation (you pay for a ticket to travel, not specifically to sit), however they offer the full refund if you don't get another seat in accordance with their Charter, nothing requires them to do this legally.

    The travel bit is not what I'm on about. Its those that get a separate ticket to travel at the booking office with the pass and pay the €5 to reserve a seat which means they pay to sit and not to travel plus they keep saying that the best way to guarantee a seat is to book online


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    #317
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The travel bit is not what I'm on about. Its those that get a separate ticket to travel at the booking office with the pass and pay the €5 to reserve a seat which means they pay to sit and not to travel plus they keep saying that the best way to guarantee a seat is to book online

    They pay for an entitlement to travel which is now subject to "personalised transport arrangements", not to sit as a seat is not guaranteed as again the T&Cs for that reservation states that there is no obligation to actually provide the seat or any seat, but there is in that case a liability on IE to refund the €5 if they don't get that seat (even if they get other seats) as the €5 is the fee for the reservation.

    When you boil it down it makes a joke of the system, but contract law for the provision of services and the railway don't mix well (and they don't have to).


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    #318
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    They pay for an entitlement to travel which is now subject to "personalised transport arrangements", not to sit as a seat is not guaranteed as again the T&Cs for that reservation states that there is no obligation to actually provide the seat or any seat, but there is in that case a liability on IE to refund the €5 if they don't get that seat (even if they get other seats) as the €5 is the fee for the reservation.

    When you boil it down it makes a joke of the system, but contract law for the provision of services and the railway don't mix well (and they don't have to).

    They don't pay for entitlement to travel when they are on free travel.. Whats needed is designate coach for reserved seating similer to coach D on the enterprise but with better signage stating it. I don't know how that will work on the ICRs with the sets going all over the place at different times.


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    #319
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,681 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    They don't pay for entitlement to travel when they are on free travel.. Whats needed is designate coach for reserved seating similer to coach D on the enterprise but with better signage stating it. I don't know how that will work on the ICRs with the sets going all over the place at different times.

    Not really practical to use Belfast as an example, only reason the sign is there is because that's the only standard capacity IE are allocated for the route to sell. You will likely see NIR reservations scattered throughout the whole rain.

    With walk up revenue on intercity routes rapidly declining more and more capacity will be needed online. Currently typically 70-75% is available online while it rises to 85% on some services.

    They need to go and look at ways to improve the reservation system. It was improved but IMO its been a lot less reliable recently most likely because of the rise in online reservations from students/commuters killing what was already a slow system to load.


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    #320
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    Are we saying FTP holders, when asking for tickets to travel, request (and pay for) seat reservations?

    Shouldn’t this be too late for booking seats?


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    #321
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Not really practical to use Belfast as an example, only reason the sign is there is because that's the only standard capacity IE are allocated for the route to sell. You will likely see NIR reservations scattered throughout the whole rain.

    With walk up revenue on intercity routes rapidly declining more and more capacity will be needed online. Currently typically 70-75% is available online while it rises to 85% on some services.

    They need to go and look at ways to improve the reservation system. It was improved but IMO its been a lot less reliable recently most likely because of the rise in online reservations from students/commuters killing what was already a slow system to load.

    It's not a slow system to load. It takes seconds when it's working. They are doing a lot of work at station level to fix any faults. It could be the wi fi in the station, or a part on a train that needs changing which can mess the whole reservations on a train with 2 sets together. If there is a fault with one set then you could have a scenario where coach A B and C are showing but not the rest and coach C could be the last coach on a 7 piece train with coach A being the third Last, basically coach A being in the middle. It's a "Ah for feck sakes" moment when it happens but they are addressing it. If a station has a few fails then they will send someone out to look at the reasons for the fails and try and resolve it.
    If you are waiting for a train to arrive at a platform so that you can check if the Reservations is working, it could be a case that it arrives within 10 to 15 "minutes of departure and is boarding straight away so if they are not up due to the wi fi or the driver that brought it to the platform hadn't keyed in the id before he opened the doors then you would have to do it yourself which would take a few seconds which in the mean time passengers would have rushed to a free seat only for the names to show up a few seconds later or before departure if its not working and the flash card needs changing or not at all if it the wi fi is crap.
    In this instance it's not possible to go along the train with pieces of paper to indicate that up to a hundred seats are reserved when the train is already full.
    There is also some cases that you could check the train around 40 minutes or so before boarding or departure and the names are showing but sometimes when the driver restarts the train to do the checks it sometimes knocks the names off for some reason so you might have to re do it again with the passengers already sat down and the train is full. This also gets noted.
    In a nutshell, it is getting addressed and they are working to achieve that the reservations are working 100% of the time.


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    #322
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Are we saying FTP holders, when asking for tickets to travel, request (and pay for) seat reservations?

    Shouldn’t this be too late for booking seats?

    No, they can ring up or do it online up to 90 minutes before the train departure.


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    #323
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    They don't pay for entitlement to travel when they are on free travel.. Whats needed is designate coach for reserved seating similer to coach D on the enterprise but with better signage stating it. I don't know how that will work on the ICRs with the sets going all over the place at different times.

    I didn't say they pay for an "entitlement to travel", I said they pay for "entitlement to travel which is now subject to "personalised transport arrangements"". There's a difference and that's simply what a reservation is.


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    #324
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    I didn't say they pay for an "entitlement to travel", I said they pay for "entitlement to travel which is now subject to "personalised transport arrangements"". There's a difference and that's simply what a reservation is.

    Say that again? 😀


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    #325
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Say that again? 😀

    That's actually the legal definition of a reservation on a train, I kid you not.


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    #326
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,681 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    It's not a slow system to load. It takes seconds when it's working. They are doing a lot of work at station level to fix any faults. It could be the wi fi in the station, or a part on a train that needs changing which can mess the whole reservations on a train with 2 sets together. If there is a fault with one set then you could have a scenario where coach A B and C are showing but not the rest and coach C could be the last coach on a 7 piece train with coach A being the third Last, basically coach A being in the middle. It's a "Ah for feck sakes" moment when it happens but they are addressing it. If a station has a few fails then they will send someone out to look at the reasons for the fails and try and resolve it.
    If you are waiting for a train to arrive at a platform so that you can check if the Reservations is working, it could be a case that it arrives within 10 to 15 "minutes of departure and is boarding straight away so if they are not up due to the wi fi or the driver that brought it to the platform hadn't keyed in the id before he opened the doors then you would have to do it yourself which would take a few seconds which in the mean time passengers would have rushed to a free seat only for the names to show up a few seconds later or before departure if its not working and the flash card needs changing or not at all if it the wi fi is crap.
    In this instance it's not possible to go along the train with pieces of paper to indicate that up to a hundred seats are reserved when the train is already full.
    There is also some cases that you could check the train around 40 minutes or so before boarding or departure and the names are showing but sometimes when the driver restarts the train to do the checks it sometimes knocks the names off for some reason so you might have to re do it again with the passengers already sat down and the train is full. This also gets noted.
    In a nutshell, it is getting addressed and they are working to achieve that the reservations are working 100% of the time.

    I just hope it manage to improve it soon, last Friday most afternoon trains had no reservations working in Heuston according to passengers on social media. The only route I didn't see mentioned was Cork.


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    #327
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I just hope it manage to improve it soon, last Friday most afternoon trains had no reservations working in Heuston according to passengers on social media. The only route I didn't see mentioned was Cork.

    The 7pm to Cork didn't but as I mentioned earlier, it was bedlam from 6.40ish so I doubt any reservations were honoured.


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    #328
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    They will be looking to recruit on board staff later this month if anyone wants to apply when they get advertised.


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    #329
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    They will be looking to recruit on board staff later this month if anyone wants to apply when they get advertised.

    No thanks, I have a job. Just be nice if I didn't have to stand for an hour after doing it.


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    #330
    The Moldy Gowl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,889 ✭✭✭✭The Moldy Gowl


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    No thanks, I have a job. Just be nice if I didn't have to stand for an hour after doing it.

    I'm sure if you asked nicely could you sit down as you have a medical condition and can't stand no one would have an issue.
    I would give up my seat for you if you asked in a polite way rather than the aggressive way you have with dealing with the issue of throwing tantrums.

    Or if someone pulls you up on sitting in their seat, ask them would they be so kind as you have a medical problem.


    Everyone wants to get home in peace and not be confronted by gowls. Would be a rare occasion someone would say no but it's a far better tactic for you instead of looking for a fight


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    #331
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    No thanks, I have a job. Just be nice if I didn't have to stand for an hour after doing it.

    Over 200 passengers or so get a seat per journey depending on the size of the train, sometimes double that amount. See if there is something that you can do to help you be one of them.


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