Is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

The Moldy Gowl

SuperS54 wrote: »

If there were other options available then I'd certainly move. If on the another hand there was standing room only and there was no indication of which seats were reserved until there was standing room only then I'd ask you to take the issue up with a member of staff.

Then I just sit on your lap or your table.

I'm petty enough to do.

gozunda

The Moldy Gowl wrote: »

Then I just sit on your lap or your table.

I'm petty enough to do.

Though if the person with the booked seat was a hairy arsedd biker a lot of people wouldn't be too happy imo ...

joeguevara

SuperS54 wrote: »

If there were other options available then I'd certainly move. If on the another hand there was standing room only and there was no indication of which seats were reserved until there was standing room only then I'd ask you to take the issue up with a member of staff.

What if they booked their seat from the next station, i.e. Newbridge? Would you still refuse to let them sit in their pre-booked seat?

Why wouldn't you book your own seat?

SuperS54

joeguevara wrote: »

What if they booked their seat from the next station, i.e. Newbridge? Would you still refuse to let them sit in their pre-booked seat?

Why wouldn't you book your own seat?

I'm simply going by the scenario outlined by the OP...

joeysoap

I know from previous posts that booked seats on the Enterprise are shown as red. Am I correct in thinking that on intercity trains green means booked?

I also imagine that it’s on full trains ex Dublin at busy periods that the problem arises.

joeguevara

SuperS54 wrote: »

I'm simply going by the scenario outlined by the OP...

but its the same. They weren't there when you sat down and as they are getting on there are no seats available. Would you tell them you are not moving?

SuperS54

joeguevara wrote: »

but its the same. They weren't there when you sat down and as they are getting on there are no seats available. Would you tell them you are not moving?

It's not the same, in the scenario from the OP there is no notification until after the carriage is full and close to departing, it's a fault with the IE system.

I haven't taken an IE train in many years and never one with a reservation system. I assume that if a seat is reserved for a later part in the journey that there should be some notification at the first station that the seat is reserved at some point of the journey, this allowing you to choose an entirely free seat? Or is it still a lottery that at some point someone may have the seat reserved and you won't be informed until the last moment?

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Question wasn't specific and no, as you well know.

11 years and they have not addressed it, that's the problem and I don't need to be an expert. It should of been fixed long ago or have staff assign seats manually. Its not acceptable to offer reservations on a system which has a high failure rate.

The whole thing cannot be that complicated nor massively different to most train operators. The increase % of online bookings is adding to the problems because the data isn't uploading fast enough.

You seem to believe that you are an expert.

joeguevara

SuperS54 wrote: »

It's not the same, in the scenario from the OP there is no notification until after the carriage is full and close to departing, it's a fault with the IE system.

I haven't taken an IE train in many years and never one with a reservation system. I assume that if a seat is reserved for a later part in the journey that there should be some notification at the first station that the seat is reserved at some point of the journey, this allowing you to choose an entirely free seat? Or is it still a lottery that at some point someone may have the seat reserved and you won't be informed until the last moment?

The notification would go up at exactly the same time as the OP. would you refuse to get up when there are no free seats?

SuperS54

joeguevara wrote: »

The notification would go up at exactly the same time as the OP. would you refuse to get up when there are no free seats?

If the notification on which seats are reserved (at any point in the journey) was not up when the train was boarding, thereby not allowing passengers without reservations to choose unreserved seats then there is a serious issue with the system.

If at a later point when it was no longer possible to choose an unreserved seat the notification came on I would suggest the person who reserved a seat take the issue up with IE as the seat was not showing as reserved when I choose it. Of course if the passenger had a disability or other greater need for the seat I would offer it, but I, like most people, would do that anyway regardless of reservations.

I've taken trains in many countries and most sell several ticket types, seated and standing being the most common. Seated tickets have a carriage and seat number, standing tickets do not have a seat number but on some systems have a carriage number. Given how common these systems are in other countries the IE system described here is stone age. How difficult can it be?! You buy a seated ticket and know you have a seat, you buy a standing ticket and know you'll likely be standing. Nobody can "take" your seat as they will either have their own seat number or a standing ticket.

Jack Kanoff

SuperS54 wrote: »

If there were other options available then I'd certainly move. If on the another hand there was standing room only and there was no indication of which seats were reserved until there was standing room only then I'd ask you to take the issue up with a member of staff.

This has happened to me before, I've asked people to move... they move...number is on the ticket...I've paid extra for that seat, you're not sitting there regardless of
whether or not you have to stand

Jamie2k9

joeysoap wrote: »

I know from previous posts that booked seats on the Enterprise are shown as red. Am I correct in thinking that on intercity trains green means booked?

I also imagine that it’s on full trains ex Dublin at busy periods that the problem arises.

This is just another problem with IE.

Belfast = Red (booked), Green (free)
Cork = Had a System which indicated free/book seats but was swtiched off
ICRs = name displays

You seem to believe that you are an expert.

Not at all but the problems are fixable. Lads have had 11 years and still can't make it work....

This has happened to me before, I've asked people to move... they move...number is on the ticket...I've paid extra for that seat, you're not sitting there regardless of
whether or not you have to stand

The law says otherwise.

Jamie2k9

TG1 wrote: »

I don't understand how there are 17 pages of discussion on this thread. If I book a seat, I expect that seat to be available to me. If someone else does not book a seat but sits in my booked seat, I expect them to move on.

Likewise, if I don't book a seat I won't sit in a booked one just for the hell of it. If I'm sitting in a booked seat accidently and the person who has paid for that seat arrives I will move. They paid for the privilege of gaurenteeing a seat. I did not, so why should I have that seat?

Again the law says otherwise, you should really take the issue up with Irish Rail because its the only way to get it sorted.

I think there is an easy solution to all of this messing about. Just have every ticket assigned a seat number, no matter the method of booking / paying for it.

If all the seats are gone by the time you book, then tough. You're given a 'standing only' ticket and on you go.

LirW

SuperS54 wrote: »

If there were other options available then I'd certainly move. If on the another hand there was standing room only and there was no indication of which seats were reserved until there was standing room only then I'd ask you to take the issue up with a member of staff.

If you ever have to travel by train pretty much anywhere in Europe you'd be fecked out of your seat faster than you blink. Seriously, the neck of some people. Hardly the customers fault that the light came on when you already sat down.

Jamie2k9

LirW wrote: »

If you ever have to travel by train pretty much anywhere in Europe you'd be fecked out of your seat faster than you blink. Seriously, the neck of some people. Hardly the customers fault that the light came on when you already sat down.

Europe would have a reservation system fit for purpose in place. Its hardly the customer sitting in the seats fault they sat in a pre booked seat when there is no indication of a reservation.

LirW

That's a thing of common decency. When someone shows you the ticket with the number on, you move, they paid for that seat. You take the issue to Irish rails and aren't going to stay put in your seat arguing like a little child with the person who bought it why you refuse to move out of their seat. Yes, bad for you, but you can buy yourself a seat too and I bet you'd like the person who took it by accident to move too.

Jamie2k9

LirW wrote: »

That's a thing of common decency. When someone shows you the ticket with the number on, you move, they paid for that seat. You take the issue to Irish rails and aren't going to stay put in your seat arguing like a little child with the person who bought it why you refuse to move out of their seat. Yes, bad for you, but you can buy yourself a seat too and I bet you'd like the person who took it by accident to move too.

I agree and would usually move but just making it you don't have to move and that was the OP's question.

Jack Kanoff

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is just another problem with IE.

Belfast = Red (booked), Green (free)
Cork = Had a System which indicated free/book seats but was swtiched off
ICRs = name displays



Not at all but the problems are fixable. Lads have had 11 years and still can't make it work....



The law says otherwise.

What law would that be

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Europe would have a reservation system fit for purpose in place. Its hardly the customer sitting in the seats fault they sat in a pre booked seat when there is no indication of a reservation.

Some do regardless with the usual excuses being "It wasn't on when i sat down" or " I didn't see it".

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is just another problem with IE.

Belfast = Red (booked), Green (free)
Cork = Had a System which indicated free/book seats but was swtiched off
ICRs = name displays



Not at all but the problems are fixable. Lads have had 11 years and still can't make it work....



The law says otherwise.

You say it's fixable, how?

Hilly Bill

LirW wrote: »

That's a thing of common decency. When someone shows you the ticket with the number on, you move, they paid for that seat. You take the issue to Irish rails and aren't going to stay put in your seat arguing like a little child with the person who bought it why you refuse to move out of their seat. Yes, bad for you, but you can buy yourself a seat too and I bet you'd like the person who took it by accident to move too.

There are some who would intentional sit there and refuse to move and telling the other person to take it up with Irish rail.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You say it's fixable, how?

Irish Rail area always having IT issues with reservations, phones, website etc. In house or outsourced?

1 - Terminate the contract with Eir, Barry Kenny said a few months ago they moved from Wi-Fi to 3G downloading to the trains. It is beyond believe that in a major urban city that Wi-FI is not sufficient enough. The ICRs are able to relay any issues back to the depots in service so reservation system is fixable.
2 - When a person books online is it downloaded to the immediately or do they wait until 90 minutes to download everyone reservation? If the last then reservations need to close 2 hours before departure.
3 - Do not load reservations onto a train which is not operating on full power, as soon as the driver arrives, they are cleared while still stored on the train but takes ages to come back.
4 - Drivers changing cabs in Kilkenny/Killarney/Limerick J need to be given instructions how to do this because some are able to do it without clearing the reservation systems while others manage to clear the system and you may not see reservations for the full journey.
5 - Its typically taking at least 1 hour to load reservations onto a train. Its not possible in many cases to load them earlier so they need to address this urgently. Services typically board 30 minutes before dep.

From experience the 5 car sets are the worst offenders for failing. The Cork and Belfast systems are more reliable than the ICRs.

I don't have all the answers but if the ICRs are the issue then they need to tender for an IT upgrade.

mutedtempest

Emme wrote: »

You should ask a member of Irish Rail staff to escort you to your seat when you board the train. Most people on trains are happy to give up their seats for the disabled or incapacitated.

Possibly, but I can see enough that I don't really need escorting so it seems a bit unkind to trouble the poor employee to get me to my seat. I can find my way just fine, just don't want to be faced with people being upset about it. I've spent a lot of time on Bus Eireann being glared at the entire trip when the driver asks people to move from the handicapped seats.

And as several people have said, if it happens to be busy on the train? Even more a risk I don't want to take.

mutedtempest

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There are some who would intentional sit there and refuse to move and telling the other person to take it up with Irish rail.

Yeah, this is what makes me wary. If I show a person my ticket with my name and seat number and they decide to tell me to take it up with irish rail, well, my anxiety isn't going to want me to stand there and fight with them, especially if they happen to be male and aggressive. Had a lot of that in Limerick on the local bus routes and simply can't deal with it. My loss, I suppose.

Isambard

mutedtempest wrote: »

Possibly, but I can see enough that I don't really need escorting so it seems a bit unkind to trouble the poor employee to get me to my seat. I can find my way just fine, just don't want to be faced with people being upset about it. I've spent a lot of time on Bus Eireann being glared at the entire trip when the driver asks people to move from the handicapped seats.

And as several people have said, if it happens to be busy on the train? Even more a risk I don't want to take.

added to the fact there won't be a member of staff available and even if there is they won't want to deal with it.

My Bro in Law said just the other day if someone was in his seat he'd get the ticket checker to sort it out....good luck with that was my answer.

Hilly Bill

mutedtempest wrote: »

Possibly, but I can see enough that I don't really need escorting so it seems a bit unkind to trouble the poor employee to get me to my seat. I can find my way just fine, just don't want to be faced with people being upset about it. I've spent a lot of time on Bus Eireann being glared at the entire trip when the driver asks people to move from the handicapped seats.

And as several people have said, if it happens to be busy on the train? Even more a risk I don't want to take.

You are just looking for excuses now for not to take a train that you had no intention of taking in the first place.
Those seats are not handicap seats, anyone can sit in them but priority should be given to anyone with mobility issues.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail area always having IT issues with reservations, phones, website etc. In house or outsourced?

1 - Terminate the contract with Eir, Barry Kenny said a few months ago they moved from Wi-Fi to 3G downloading to the trains. It is beyond believe that in a major urban city that Wi-FI is not sufficient enough. The ICRs are able to relay any issues back to the depots in service so reservation system is fixable.
2 - When a person books online is it downloaded to the immediately or do they wait until 90 minutes to download everyone reservation? If the last then reservations need to close 2 hours before departure.
3 - Do not load reservations onto a train which is not operating on full power, as soon as the driver arrives, they are cleared while still stored on the train but takes ages to come back.
4 - Drivers changing cabs in Kilkenny/Killarney/Limerick J need to be given instructions how to do this because some are able to do it without clearing the reservation systems while others manage to clear the system and you may not see reservations for the full journey.
5 - Its typically taking at least 1 hour to load reservations onto a train. Its not possible in many cases to load them earlier so they need to address this urgently. Services typically board 30 minutes before dep.

From experience the 5 car sets are the worst offenders for failing. The Cork and Belfast systems are more reliable than the ICRs.

I don't have all the answers but if the ICRs are the issue then they need to tender for an IT upgrade.

Where do you get the 1 hour to load the reservations from?

gmisk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Some do regardless with the usual excuses being "It wasn't on when i sat down" or " I didn't see it".

The only train I am on is Dublin to belfast one about once a month - there is a whole carriage that is clearly marked as internet bookings only (D) despite that some people just wander on and sit down where they feel, even with the red indicator lights above seats (it is fairly rare in my experience these lights arent working on this route). I have fairly regularly had to get people to move.
I am always there a good 20 minutes before train goes, but they dont board it until about 10 minutes to go usually.

PeterParker957

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Again the law says otherwise, you should really take the issue up with Irish Rail because its the only way to get it sorted.

IR's own regulations say - booking a seat means you need to be there 20 minutes before the off. If you're not, your seat is fair game.