Is this Irish team better than 2009

First XV is probably close enough I think but this squad has a better bench and more depth in general. That’s the nature of sport though, standards are constantly being raised broadly speaking.

Godot. wrote: »

In terms of talent?

I wouldn't think so. In 2009 we probably had our best ever back row in SOB, Heaslip and Ferris. Definitely a big step down from Conor Murray at SH and a marginal one with ROG v Sexton. Our centres were the best we've ever had (with the proviso that we haven't had a settled centre partnership this year). Then there was POC. The rest of the pack would probably be second best to what we field now and the back three were certainly the equals of the current one, if not better. Two of the highest ever try scorers for Ireland were in that team.

Our bench this year are far better.

The coach certainly is. Makes all the difference.

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

From a neutrals point of view the 09 team would definitely be the stronger but as said above the squad depth is shaded by the current group but then I think that most teams now boast a stronger depth than they did then, just the nature of the professional era.

It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

At least we'll be able to answer the question: Is this year's Rugby forum provincial bickering better than 2009.

Webbs wrote: »

From a neutrals point of view the 09 team would definitely be the stronger but as said above the squad depth is shaded by the current group but then I think that most teams now boast a stronger depth than they did then, just the nature of the professional era.

It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

Wales won a couple of Grand Slams previous to that, and France won a GS the following year.

The big difference is that Scotland have improved since then, Wales have gone back a small bit this year (they will be back again) and France have really lost the plot.

jm08 wrote: »

Wales won a couple of Grand Slams previous to that, and France won a GS the following year.

The big difference is that Scotland have improved since then, Wales have gone back a small bit this year (they will be back again) and France have really lost the plot.

I don't actually think France have lost the plot. Brunel has started with the basics and concentrated on defence and it's showing. They have been very difficult to break down and have been a real nuisance at the breakdown for everyone. The attack is all over the place, but they have some excellent players like Grosso and Camara.

I actually don't think I've seen Maxime Machenaud playing so well, ever. And Trinh Duc is looking in good form too.

There's a lot to be afraid of with this French side with a bit of organisation creeping in. In a year's time, they could well be a force to be reckoned with. I'm really looking forward to their match against Wales.

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

Not trying to poke holes, but in my opinion Ferris would be ahead of POM, Ferris at often times was talked about as the best 6 in the world. While we still debate whether POM is the best 6 in Ireland.

Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

crossman47 wrote: »

I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

I was reluctant to call too many draws just purely to get conversation going.

Stringer was an excellent player and it is quite possible that I am doing him less justice than deserved due to the amount of time that has passed.

I just think Marmion offers a good running game, combined with his underrated box kicking ability.

I feel Strings really only had the passing game in his locker that was top drawer