Is this Irish team better than 2009

Shefwedfan

Joe miles better than Kidney

Bench better than 2009.

POM better than Ferris? Only Heaslip has retired and SOB has injury POM would struggle to get into the team. Ferris was an animal

Heaslip/Standar? again this was Heaslip when he was the top 8 in the World. Standar is doing a job but wouldn't get near the 2009 Heaslip.

Wallace/Leavy. Again seriously, Leavy would love to be able to get even into a comparison with Wallace. Wallace was an animal, such a great player, Leavy will get to his class but he is way too young.

Luke/Stockdale? Luke was a class above anything that Stockdale was done, ok he has scored tries but Luke was savage.

When you think back that 2009 team had some serious talent, how many have had to retire due to injury is shocking.

swiwi_

.ak wrote: »

Wally + Fez > Leavy + POM

As said Fez easily in the top 10 blindsides in the world if not further up the latter when on form.

Wallace was outrageously good, so mobile, great hands, and an absolute handful for any defence.

Our best backrow ever tho for me was Fez, SOB and Heaslip. Such a pity we didn’t see it more but it was one of the highlights of RWC 2012 when even some Kiwi press heralded them as the backrow of the tournament.

I’m intrigued by this 2012 RWC...even a little embarrassed as I have no recollection

The biggest difference between 2009 and 2018 is the bench options IMO.

Neil3030

swiwi_ wrote: »

I’m intrigued by this 2012 RWC...even a little embarrassed as I have no recollection

By the time Fez was finished tackling Genia it was 2012.

prawnsambo

swiwi_ wrote: »

I’m intrigued by this 2012 RWC...even a little embarrassed as I have no recollection

The biggest difference between 2009 and 2018 is the bench options IMO.

Methinks .ak has revealed his dirty little secret. He follows that roundy ball game.

DJIMI TRARORE

2009 better team
2018 better squad

jm08

Its funny how the fewer games you play the better you are.

Ferris was made of glass. He had 35 caps (30 starts) and made 1 Lions Tour where he got injured. How can he be regarded as the best blindside ever?

Neil3030

The team from 09 would struggle to keep up with the fitness, power and pace of the 18 team, and would have nowhere near the skillset amongst the forwards. But that's simply a sign of how the game has evolved. Relative to their eras, the 09 team is probably stronger.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Its funny how the fewer games you play the better you are.

Ferris was made of glass. He had 35 caps (30 starts) and made 1 Lions Tour where he got injured. How can he be regarded as the best blindside ever?

He isn't and that is probably solely due to his limited number of caps and injury issues.

However, we are comparing the teams that actually started the two games and when Ferris played he was better.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Its funny how the fewer games you play the better you are.

Ferris was made of glass. He had 35 caps (30 starts) and made 1 Lions Tour where he got injured. How can he be regarded as the best blindside ever?

I wouldn't say he was the best ever but when he was fit he was up among the best. He had savage power and actually could run great support lines and had good hands for such a huge man.
Wally was a brilliant operator as well though...greatest man I ever saw for powering through tackles to gain more metres.

leakyboots

Clegg wrote: »

Wallace is being seriously underrated here. He was a 3 test Lion in 2009 against SA and a huge part in all of Ireland's successes down the years. Leavy isn't anywhere near that level of consistent excellence yet. At their very best, SoB and Heaslip were better players, but Wallace was brilliant in his own right and more than held his own in that Ireland backrow.

I've always thought Wallace was the best rugby athlete we've ever produced - I rank him above Ferries and SOB - he was a freak. Unstoppable when near the line, quick enough to play centre and wing, gifted footballer. People go on about ROG, BOD and POC but, for me, Wally was their equal.

One of the best players ever to grace a field in Ireland, despite the injury profile he had.

jm08

Neil3030 wrote: »

The team from 09 would struggle to keep up with the fitness, power and pace of the 18 team, and would have nowhere near the skillset amongst the forwards. But that's simply a sign of how the game has evolved. Relative to their eras, the 09 team is probably stronger.

Not sure about that. John Hayes played every minute of every game for that GS win! Marcus Horan played most of it as well.

mfceiling wrote: »

I wouldn't say he was the best ever but when he was fit he was up among the best. He had savage power and actually could run great support lines and had good hands for such a huge man.
Wally was a brilliant operator as well though...greatest man I ever saw for powering through tackles to gain more metres.

I think he probably spent too much time in the gym and probably why he had a very short career. He wasn't as natural an athlete as Wally.

leakyboots wrote: »

I've always thought Wallace was the best rugby athlete we've ever produced - I rank him above Ferries and SOB - he was a freak. Unstoppable when near the line, quick enough to play centre and wing, gifted footballer. People go on about ROG, BOD and POC but, for me, Wally was their equal.

One of the best players ever to grace a field in Ireland, despite the injury profile he had.

I agree with that. Incredible discipline as well. Rarely gave away a penalty. Really intelligent player.

Podge_irl

leakyboots wrote: »

One of the best players ever to grace a field in Ireland, despite the injury profile he had.

Did he have a particularly bad injury profile? He struggled to always start for Ireland at points but 72 caps is a pretty solid return.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

I prefer Ireland's Call over Amhrán na bhFiann

Interested Observer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Did he have a particularly bad injury profile? He struggled to always start for Ireland at points but 72 caps is a pretty solid return.

He did in his early career. I haven't checked this but it wouldn't surprise me if he picked up the majority of those caps after he turned 30.

joseywhales

Without BOD, 2018 team wins but 10-15.
With BOD, 2009 wins 5-3 with a 79th minute pick and drive by BOD
He is seriously an incredible outlier and he was half crocked.

jm08

Interested Observer wrote: »

He did in his early career. I haven't checked this but it wouldn't surprise me if he picked up the majority of those caps after he turned 30.

He seems to have missed most of about 2 seasons around 03/04/05. After that he started approx. 10 internationals every year up to his injury in 2011 (before the World Cup).

75 caps, 68 starts.

A trip down memory lane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_xCR_LBR6U

Sephiral

I think the major problem is that players have to be much better all rounders than back in 2009. Backs have to be able to clear rucks effectively and forwards have to have at least something outside the set piece to their armory. This means that props and locks tend to be more rounded in this comparison for 2018.

Ferris was an absolute machine. If he had stayed fit, he would be amongst the best players of the Pro age IMO.

Clegg

leakyboots wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

Wallace is being seriously underrated here. He was a 3 test Lion in 2009 against SA and a huge part in all of Ireland's successes down the years. Leavy isn't anywhere near that level of consistent excellence yet. At their very best, SoB and Heaslip were better players, but Wallace was brilliant in his own right and more than held his own in that Ireland backrow.

I've always thought Wallace was the best rugby athlete we've ever produced - I rank him above Ferries and SOB - he was a freak. Unstoppable when near the line, quick enough to play centre and wing, gifted footballer. People go on about ROG, BOD and POC but, for me, Wally was their equal.

One of the best players ever to grace a field in Ireland, despite the injury profile he had.

I'd rate Wallace higher than Ferris but not quite on SoB's level. I think the latters performances against New Zealand in 2013 and on the 2017 Lions tour put him above any other Irish backrow in the Pro era. Although, you could say Heaslip outshines them all for being consistently good for the best part of a decade.

Burkie1203

leakyboots wrote: »

I've always thought Wallace was the best rugby athlete we've ever produced - I rank him above Ferries and SOB - he was a freak. Unstoppable when near the line, quick enough to play centre and wing, gifted footballer. People go on about ROG, BOD and POC but, for me, Wally was their equal.

One of the best players ever to grace a field in Ireland, despite the injury profile he had.

Heaslip with a bit to spare.

329 senior professional appearances in the backrow is phenomenal. Especially as most of them are 80 minute performances at the very highest levels of the game.

.ak

prawnsambo wrote: »

Methinks .ak has revealed his dirty little secret. He follows that roundy ball game.

Didn't you know Fez, SOB and Heaslip play soccerball?!

who_me

joseywhales wrote: »

Without BOD, 2018 team wins but 10-15.
With BOD, 2009 wins 5-3 with a 79th minute pick and drive by BOD
He is seriously an incredible outlier and he was half crocked.

BOD was an absolute freak in '09. The tackles, the (typical prop) tries, the workrate.

IMO that's the big difference. Previously Ireland have been dependent on individual players coming up with a moment of brilliance. Now there's much more of a gameplan, a structure. Is it too limiting, too low risk? Maybe. But it's infinitely more reproducible than relying on moments of magic.

I don't know if the '18 team has a higher peak than '09 (or any other year), but they hit that peak far, far more often.

CatFromHue

In the game against England in specific BOD was amazing.

We only scored 14 points and he got 8 of them, plus POC tried to knock him out too!!

Burkie1203

who_me wrote: »

BOD was an absolute freak in '09. The tackles, the (typical prop) tries, the workrate.

IMO that's the big difference. Previously Ireland have been dependent on individual players coming up with a moment of brilliance. Now there's much more of a gameplan, a structure. Is it too limiting, too low risk? Maybe. But it's infinitely more reproducible than relying on moments of magic.

I don't know if the '18 team has a higher peak than '09 (or any other year), but they hit that peak far, far more often.

I don't think we play low risk. We average 34 points a game over 4 games including a wet day in paris. We play to our strengths.

3 centres in 4 games and are top scorers. Says a lot about the coaching and the quality of player

Shefwedfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

In the game against England in specific BOD was amazing.

We only scored 14 points and he got 8 of them, plus POC tried to knock him out too!!

Wrong match

He got nailed twice by English players, he was dizzy to say the least. If it was today he would have been off the pitch after the first tackle

Game was in Croker, I remember it well. Johnson was coach and the game was poor. The only time the crowd got going was when they would put up Johnson on the big screen.....cue boo's from the whole crowd. Picture taken down and it was silence again

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Wrong match

He got nailed twice by English players, he was dizzy to say the least. If it was today he would have been off the pitch after the first tackle

Game was in Croker, I remember it well. Johnson was coach and the game was poor. The only time the crowd got going was when they would put up Johnson on the big screen.....cue boo's from the whole crowd. Picture taken down and it was silence again

So would the 'tackler'.

7oakse

Semantics but the question was who was the better team not who had the better individuals. 
I believe this crop is much better team than the 2009 team. Everyone knows the system, and we can lose 3 players in a key position and not miss a beat, that's the sign of a genuinely brilliant team. We are brutally efficient which isn't something you could say about that 2009 team. 
2009 had better individual players but I think they'd be beaten by the 2018 team because of the i) the system and how embedded it is in all their minds ii) strength of the bench and the ability to seamlessly change personnel iii) the quality of the players (even if individuals do fall short of their 2009 counterparts)

EDIT: Whoops, just saw it was referring to talent and not the team.

aloooof

7oakse wrote: »

Everyone knows the system, and we can lose 3 players in a key position and not miss a beat, that's the sign of a genuinely brilliant team.

I'd argue it's the sign of a genuinely brilliant coach. This, for me, hits the nail on the head:

Deleted User wrote: »

2009 with the marginally better first 15, 2018 with the better bench by far.

Who would win? Whichever team was coached by Schmidt.

Bridge93

Maybe I'm imagining things but I get the feeling 09 was a group of players finally peaking. Looking back they seemed to have more players reaching what you would call the peaks areas of their careers. This team seems to have far more lads with a younger age profile.

siltirocker

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Luke/Stockdale? Luke was a class above anything that Stockdale was done, ok he has scored tries but Luke was savage.

Anything? Not try scoring.

Yes you touch on the try scoring. But try scoring is, and rightfully should be, a huge part of a winger's repertoire. Stockdale has 10 tries in 8 games for Ireland, and Luke had 4 in 30+ games.

I also think Luke was a disaster at the biggest point of his career, World Cup '11. Played himself out of the squad then save 2015 was out of form or injured. He didn't start a game for Ireland for 4 years after the '11 Summer tests. And you can check it out, before it is said he was not injured for large periods of that. Certainly the early half of 2014, and tale end of 2015 but not the rest.

On his day phenomenal, but for me those days were too rare. Never reached his 2009 peaks again, hints in 2015 mind.

irishfan9

Luke Fitz's peak of 2009 is still better than Stockdale at the moment..