Is this Irish team better than 2009

arsebiscuits1

siltirocker wrote: »

Hmm, I don't think Leamy came anywhere close to being a Lion, and I have no memory of him being one.

Yeah you're right. No idea where I got it from tbh.

Possibly thinking of Quinlan getting initially selected

jr86

Deleted User wrote: »

Wales are not miles off that level. They are inconsistent outside the six nations but the truth of the matter is that they were quite close to accounting for Ireland in Dublin and England in London. Either of those games could have swung their way and bring back some of their key injured players and you've a championship winning side imo.

Yeah but didn't they finish 5th last year? They seem to just play an odd great game nowadays, combined with lots of lackluster ones.

I fully expect Wales to bounce back, in fact it would not amaze me one bit if they went the furthest out of the NH teams at next year's World Cup but since 2015 they haven't come close to troubling the 6n trophy really

prawnsambo

If they win a grand slam in an even numbered year, they'll be the better team. No question.

You may close the thread now.

jr86

Dog Botherer wrote: »

If France were playing at home I'd fancy them against Wales. Should be a tight game but definitely think Wales will win it.

Will be amazing if Wales and England win, in that there'll only be one away win (excluding Italy) all campaign, and that would be a last minute drop goal winner

aloooof

crossman47 wrote: »

I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

I'd agree with above, fair enough assessment all round but for me another that I'd go to other way on would be 7. Leavy has been fantastic this year to give him his due, but I'd still have Wally. It often gets forgotten just how good he was.

aloooof

jr86 wrote: »

Will be amazing if Wales and England win, in that there'll only be one away win (excluding Italy) all campaign, and that would be a last minute drop goal winner

No it definitely wouldn't be amazing!!

bilston

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

Mostly fair comments but there is no way I'd have POM over Ferris...just no...and I'm a fan POM...but no!

And at the moment I'd take Wallace over Leavy, although it would make an interesting debate in 3 or 4 years time when Leavy hits his peak.

Also not sure about Marmion over Stringer either.

Podge_irl

siltirocker wrote: »

Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.

Kidney may have said that, but I don't really believe him (and I say that as a fairly big Wallace fan at the time).

I don't think anything will ever really detract from the emotion and excitement of 09 and I don't really think this year will match it. I have very little doubt in my mind that the current Irish team is the better team though.

crossman47

bilston wrote: »

Mostly fair comments but there is no way I'd have POM over Ferris...just no...and I'm a fan POM...but no!

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

jm08

siltirocker wrote: »

Hmm, I don't think Leamy came anywhere close to being a Lion, and I have no memory of him being one.

Leamy was just coming back from a shoulder reconstruction operation after touring NZ/Australia the previous summer. He was playing great stuff up to that operation and was not the same after it.

Podge_irl

crossman47 wrote: »

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

What does that even mean really?

I'm struggling to think of a single thing other than line-out jumping that I would consider POM to be appreciably better at than Ferris. Ferris would have been a significantly better carrier of the ball and stronger in the tackle.

Clegg

Wallace is being seriously underrated here. He was a 3 test Lion in 2009 against SA and a huge part in all of Ireland's successes down the years. Leavy isn't anywhere near that level of consistent excellence yet. At their very best, SoB and Heaslip were better players, but Wallace was brilliant in his own right and more than held his own in that Ireland backrow.

Podge_irl

Clegg wrote: »

Wallace is being seriously underrated here. He was a 3 test Lion in 2009 against SA and a huge part in all of Ireland's successes down the years. Leavy isn't anywhere near that level of consistent excellence yet. At their very best, SoB and Heaslip were better players, but Wallace was brilliant in his own right and more than held his own in that Ireland backrow.

Its a bit odd to think it considering our backrow appears to be one of our strengths today, but I would take every single one of the 09 starting backrow in a heartbeat. It's about the only position on the pitch I think the '09 team has an obvious advantage. Maybe centre as well.

mfceiling

crossman47 wrote: »

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

Did you ever see Ferris play? The man was a machine. He had the "fast twitch" muscle fibres which gave him explosive power. He was one of the quickest players in the Ulster set up - easily a match in speed of the majority of backs. Incredibly strong and didn't just tackle people but actually smashed them at a rate of knots. He probably was one of the greatest 6's ever to play rugby.

bilston

crossman47 wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Mostly fair comments but there is no way I'd have POM over Ferris...just no...and I'm a fan POM...but no!

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

It's a game of opinions!

Ferris was a far more destructive ball carrier, tackler and Rucker than POM.

POM is certainly a better lineout operator than Ferris would have been.

But overall I'd have Ferris over POM anyday of the week

jr86

Wallace made the Lions in 2001 too when they had an embarrassment of riches in the back row. Was a superb player

Ferris >>> POM for sure

MayoSalmon

Podge_irl wrote:

I don't think anything will ever really detract from the emotion and excitement of 09 and I don't really think this year will match it. I have very little doubt in my mind that the current Irish team is the better team though.

That's like saying nothing will ever beat Italia 90 of course it won't because those were special moments when all things considered expectations were much lower.

Sure reading the papers today you would swear it's only a matter of time were number 1 in the world and sauntering to the World Cup final next year!

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Did you ever see Ferris play? The man was a machine. He had the "fast twitch" muscle fibres which gave him explosive power. He was one of the quickest players in the Ulster set up - easily a match in speed of the majority of backs. Incredibly strong and didn't just tackle people but actually smashed them at a rate of knots. He probably was one of the greatest 6's ever to play rugby.

Wally was no slouch either. Incredible leg power as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJvsJzKW8U

prawnsambo

jm08 wrote: »

Wally was no slouch either. Incredible leg power as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJvsJzKW8U

Yeah, Wally could push his way through a brick wall and when it collapsed, it would still be moving under Wally power.

facehugger99

Most certainly.

One only has to look at the bench.

The Black Stags

mfceiling wrote: »

crossman47 wrote: »

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

Did you ever see Ferris play? The man was a machine. He had the "fast twitch" muscle fibres which gave him explosive power. He was one of the quickest players in the Ulster set up - easily a match in speed of the majority of backs. Incredibly strong and didn't just tackle people but actually smashed them at a rate of knots. He probably was one of the greatest 6's ever to play rugby.

Not just one of the fastest at Ulster, but I read that even in the Ireland camp he was in the top 3 over every sprint distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xdOX5iNkC8

Interested Observer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6

Is this real life?


For me the 2009 team was more talented. I'd take the 2018 front row and halfbacks. I'd take the 2009 second row, backrow, centres and back three.

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Is this real life?


For me the 2009 team was more talented. I'd take the 2018 front row and halfbacks. I'd take the 2009 second row, backrow, centres and back three.

Pretty much what I said. I think we can close the thread down. There's consensus.

Podge_irl

Interested Observer wrote: »

Is this real life?


For me the 2009 team was more talented. I'd take the 2018 front row and halfbacks. I'd take the 2009 second row, backrow, centres and back three.

Maybe it depends on how you measure it up. I think our front row and halfbacks are a lot better whereas the areas 09 are ahead are closer. I don't even really agree that the 09 back 3 lot is better - Earls and Stockdale match up pretty well to Bowe and Fitz. Similarly, while POC is the best of all the second rows under consideration I think the lock pairing we have now is probably close.

.ak

Wally + Fez > Leavy + POM

As said Fez easily in the top 10 blindsides in the world if not further up the latter when on form.

Wallace was outrageously good, so mobile, great hands, and an absolute handful for any defence.

Our best backrow ever tho for me was Fez, SOB and Heaslip. Such a pity we didn’t see it more but it was one of the highlights of RWC 2012 when even some Kiwi press heralded them as the backrow of the tournament.

Former Former

It's incredible that the 2009 team won the GS without a single injury. Only one (unenforced) change to the 22 in the whole thing.

Just as well because the depth was rubbish. The fact that we won the 6N this year with so much disruption tells me that this is the better team.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

It's incredible that the 2009 team won the GS without a single injury. Only one (unenforced) change to the 22 in the whole thing.

Just as well because the depth was rubbish. The fact that we won the 6N this year with so much disruption tells me that this is the better team.

Didn't Fez break his fingers against Wales? Or dislocate them?

Edit: Not all of them obvs.

ironingbored

I think that next weekend's result will settle this.

Winning a slam with France & England away would be the greater achievement and although lb for lb the '09 15 is probably better, '18 is a better-coached team/squad.

The Lost Sheep

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

Wallace is miles ahead of Leavy for me. No question. Carrying, his ground work mightnt be as good but just cant see Leavy being anywhere near him gor no and id have Best ahead of Cronin on bench.

2009 with the marginally better first 15, 2018 with the better bench by far.

Who would win? Whichever team was coached by Schmidt.