Is this Irish team better than 2009

Godot.

In terms of talent?

irishfan9

Yes.

irishbucsfan

Yes.

ClanofLams

First XV is probably close enough I think but this squad has a better bench and more depth in general. That’s the nature of sport though, standards are constantly being raised broadly speaking.

SteelyDanJalapeno

ya, well.....

I think they're more talented, but I think the 2009 would win in a game, some great game winners on that team, BOD, POC, Tommy Bowe

prawnsambo

Godot. wrote: »

In terms of talent?

I wouldn't think so. In 2009 we probably had our best ever back row in SOB, Heaslip and Ferris. Definitely a big step down from Conor Murray at SH and a marginal one with ROG v Sexton. Our centres were the best we've ever had (with the proviso that we haven't had a settled centre partnership this year). Then there was POC. The rest of the pack would probably be second best to what we field now and the back three were certainly the equals of the current one, if not better. Two of the highest ever try scorers for Ireland were in that team.

Our bench this year are far better.

Clegg

It probably is. In terms of world class players the '09 side may edge it, but for squad depth the '18 side is so much better.

irishfan9

Sexton ROG is not marginal.

prawnsambo

irishfan9 wrote: »

Sexton ROG is not marginal.

I was being nice. Have you no cop on?

JohnFalstaff

The coach certainly is. Makes all the difference.

Clegg

prawnsambo wrote: »

I wouldn't think so. In 2009 we probably had our best ever back row in SOB, Heaslip and Ferris. Definitely a big step down from Conor Murray at SH and a marginal one with ROG v Sexton. Our centres were the best we've ever had (with the proviso that we haven't had a settled centre partnership this year). Then there was POC. The rest of the pack would probably be second best to what we field now and the back three were certainly the equals of the current one, if not better. Two of the highest ever try scorers for Ireland were in that team.

Our bench this year are far better.

It was Wallace rather than SoB. SoB played no part in the Grand Slam year.

Sexton also a far better player than RoG was that year. I'm not looking to start a **** fight in this. I just think the drop against Wales has glossed over what was a very poor campaign for him performance wise.

arsebiscuits1

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

prawnsambo

Clegg wrote: »

It was Wallace rather than SoB. SoB played no part in the Grand Slam year.

Sexton also a far better player than RoG was that year. I'm not looking to start a **** fight in this. I just think the drop against Wales has glossed over what was a very poor campaign for him performance wise.

Yeah, I only realised after that it was David Wallace. Which still made it our second best ever back row.

As for ROG. See above.

irishbucsfan

Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

Me, me, me!!

Webbs

From a neutrals point of view the 09 team would definitely be the stronger but as said above the squad depth is shaded by the current group but then I think that most teams now boast a stronger depth than they did then, just the nature of the professional era.

It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

thomond2006

Picking between Furligind and Hayes.
Please don't make me.

Dave_The_Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

At least we'll be able to answer the question: Is this year's Rugby forum provincial bickering better than 2009.

prawnsambo

thomond2006 wrote: »

Picking between Furligind and Hayes.
Please don't make me.

You don't have to post it because we all know you're thinking it. Aren't you? :pac:

jr86

Webbs wrote: »

It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

Agree with this. In 2008 wales won the slam and in 2010 France did. Both are way off that level these days

England's problem was Johnson's selection. I recall vaguely after their dour showing against ourselves, he made a few attacking changes to the side and they cut loose altogether against France and Scotland. Their ceiling in that campaign certainly betters their ceiling in this one (although I do feel they've just hit a temporary slump now)

jr86

jr86 wrote: »

Agree with this. In 2008 wales won the slam and in 2010 France did. Both are way off that level these days

England's problem was Johnson's selection. I recall vaguely after their dour showing against ourselves, he made a few attacking changes to the side and they cut loose altogether against France and Scotland. Their ceiling in that campaign certainly betters their ceiling in this one (although I do feel they've just hit a temporary slump now)

Wales are not miles off that level. They are inconsistent outside the six nations but the truth of the matter is that they were quite close to accounting for Ireland in Dublin and England in London. Either of those games could have swung their way and bring back some of their key injured players and you've a championship winning side imo.

jm08

Webbs wrote: »

From a neutrals point of view the 09 team would definitely be the stronger but as said above the squad depth is shaded by the current group but then I think that most teams now boast a stronger depth than they did then, just the nature of the professional era.

It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

Wales won a couple of Grand Slams previous to that, and France won a GS the following year.

The big difference is that Scotland have improved since then, Wales have gone back a small bit this year (they will be back again) and France have really lost the plot.

theoneeyedman

SteelyDanJalapeno wrote: »

ya, well.....

I think they're more talented, but I think the 2009 would win in a game, some great game winners on that team, BOD, POC, Tommy Bowe

Maybe so, but remember, many of the 09 side are in their late 30s or 40s by now.....

prawnsambo

jm08 wrote: »

Wales won a couple of Grand Slams previous to that, and France won a GS the following year.

The big difference is that Scotland have improved since then, Wales have gone back a small bit this year (they will be back again) and France have really lost the plot.

I don't actually think France have lost the plot. Brunel has started with the basics and concentrated on defence and it's showing. They have been very difficult to break down and have been a real nuisance at the breakdown for everyone. The attack is all over the place, but they have some excellent players like Grosso and Camara.

I actually don't think I've seen Maxime Machenaud playing so well, ever. And Trinh Duc is looking in good form too.

There's a lot to be afraid of with this French side with a bit of organisation creeping in. In a year's time, they could well be a force to be reckoned with. I'm really looking forward to their match against Wales.

Dog Botherer

If France were playing at home I'd fancy them against Wales. Should be a tight game but definitely think Wales will win it.

siltirocker

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

Not trying to poke holes, but in my opinion Ferris would be ahead of POM, Ferris at often times was talked about as the best 6 in the world. While we still debate whether POM is the best 6 in Ireland.

Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.

arsebiscuits1

siltirocker wrote: »

Not trying to poke holes, but in my opinion Ferris would be ahead of POM, Ferris at often times was talked about as the best 6 in the world. While we still debate whether POM is the best 6 in Ireland.

Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.

To be fair, Ferris and POM could be considered a draw. I just think POM is a very important player for Ireland.

Similarly upon reflection, Leamy was also an excellent player and did tour with the Lions that year. Could consider a draw between him and Nordi.

D'arcy missed the guts of a year through a horrible broken arm in 2008. Only made his comeback that December. I remember it being match fitness more than form.

Paddy Wallace, for all the effort he gave in his career, was never anything more than a placeholder at international level

crossman47

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

siltirocker

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Similarly upon reflection, Leamy was also an excellent player and did tour with the Lions that year. Could consider a draw between him and Nordi.

Hmm, I don't think Leamy came anywhere close to being a Lion, and I have no memory of him being one.

arsebiscuits1

crossman47 wrote: »

I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

I was reluctant to call too many draws just purely to get conversation going.

Stringer was an excellent player and it is quite possible that I am doing him less justice than deserved due to the amount of time that has passed.

I just think Marmion offers a good running game, combined with his underrated box kicking ability.

I feel Strings really only had the passing game in his locker that was top drawer

RoundBox11

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6

I'd take a one armed Ferris over o'mahony every day of the week. Not even close imo.

I think Wallace was immense also. Possibly overshadowed by the class we've had since him but he was a cracking player.

arsebiscuits1

siltirocker wrote: »

Hmm, I don't think Leamy came anywhere close to being a Lion, and I have no memory of him being one.

Yeah you're right. No idea where I got it from tbh.

Possibly thinking of Quinlan getting initially selected

jr86

Deleted User wrote: »

Wales are not miles off that level. They are inconsistent outside the six nations but the truth of the matter is that they were quite close to accounting for Ireland in Dublin and England in London. Either of those games could have swung their way and bring back some of their key injured players and you've a championship winning side imo.

Yeah but didn't they finish 5th last year? They seem to just play an odd great game nowadays, combined with lots of lackluster ones.

I fully expect Wales to bounce back, in fact it would not amaze me one bit if they went the furthest out of the NH teams at next year's World Cup but since 2015 they haven't come close to troubling the 6n trophy really

prawnsambo

If they win a grand slam in an even numbered year, they'll be the better team. No question.

You may close the thread now.

jr86

Dog Botherer wrote: »

If France were playing at home I'd fancy them against Wales. Should be a tight game but definitely think Wales will win it.

Will be amazing if Wales and England win, in that there'll only be one away win (excluding Italy) all campaign, and that would be a last minute drop goal winner

aloooof

crossman47 wrote: »

I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

I'd agree with above, fair enough assessment all round but for me another that I'd go to other way on would be 7. Leavy has been fantastic this year to give him his due, but I'd still have Wally. It often gets forgotten just how good he was.

aloooof

jr86 wrote: »

Will be amazing if Wales and England win, in that there'll only be one away win (excluding Italy) all campaign, and that would be a last minute drop goal winner

No it definitely wouldn't be amazing!!

bilston

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
12) Darce/ Aki -
11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
5) POC/ Toner - No argument
4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
3) Hayes/ Furlong -
2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

Mostly fair comments but there is no way I'd have POM over Ferris...just no...and I'm a fan POM...but no!

And at the moment I'd take Wallace over Leavy, although it would make an interesting debate in 3 or 4 years time when Leavy hits his peak.

Also not sure about Marmion over Stringer either.

Podge_irl

siltirocker wrote: »

Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.

Kidney may have said that, but I don't really believe him (and I say that as a fairly big Wallace fan at the time).

I don't think anything will ever really detract from the emotion and excitement of 09 and I don't really think this year will match it. I have very little doubt in my mind that the current Irish team is the better team though.

crossman47

bilston wrote: »

Mostly fair comments but there is no way I'd have POM over Ferris...just no...and I'm a fan POM...but no!

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

jm08

siltirocker wrote: »

Hmm, I don't think Leamy came anywhere close to being a Lion, and I have no memory of him being one.

Leamy was just coming back from a shoulder reconstruction operation after touring NZ/Australia the previous summer. He was playing great stuff up to that operation and was not the same after it.

Podge_irl

crossman47 wrote: »

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

What does that even mean really?

I'm struggling to think of a single thing other than line-out jumping that I would consider POM to be appreciably better at than Ferris. Ferris would have been a significantly better carrier of the ball and stronger in the tackle.

Clegg

Wallace is being seriously underrated here. He was a 3 test Lion in 2009 against SA and a huge part in all of Ireland's successes down the years. Leavy isn't anywhere near that level of consistent excellence yet. At their very best, SoB and Heaslip were better players, but Wallace was brilliant in his own right and more than held his own in that Ireland backrow.

Podge_irl

Clegg wrote: »

Wallace is being seriously underrated here. He was a 3 test Lion in 2009 against SA and a huge part in all of Ireland's successes down the years. Leavy isn't anywhere near that level of consistent excellence yet. At their very best, SoB and Heaslip were better players, but Wallace was brilliant in his own right and more than held his own in that Ireland backrow.

Its a bit odd to think it considering our backrow appears to be one of our strengths today, but I would take every single one of the 09 starting backrow in a heartbeat. It's about the only position on the pitch I think the '09 team has an obvious advantage. Maybe centre as well.

mfceiling

crossman47 wrote: »

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

Did you ever see Ferris play? The man was a machine. He had the "fast twitch" muscle fibres which gave him explosive power. He was one of the quickest players in the Ulster set up - easily a match in speed of the majority of backs. Incredibly strong and didn't just tackle people but actually smashed them at a rate of knots. He probably was one of the greatest 6's ever to play rugby.

bilston

crossman47 wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Mostly fair comments but there is no way I'd have POM over Ferris...just no...and I'm a fan POM...but no!

I have to disagree. POM a better all round forward.

It's a game of opinions!

Ferris was a far more destructive ball carrier, tackler and Rucker than POM.

POM is certainly a better lineout operator than Ferris would have been.

But overall I'd have Ferris over POM anyday of the week

jr86

Wallace made the Lions in 2001 too when they had an embarrassment of riches in the back row. Was a superb player

Ferris >>> POM for sure

MayoSalmon

Podge_irl wrote:

I don't think anything will ever really detract from the emotion and excitement of 09 and I don't really think this year will match it. I have very little doubt in my mind that the current Irish team is the better team though.

That's like saying nothing will ever beat Italia 90 of course it won't because those were special moments when all things considered expectations were much lower.

Sure reading the papers today you would swear it's only a matter of time were number 1 in the world and sauntering to the World Cup final next year!

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Did you ever see Ferris play? The man was a machine. He had the "fast twitch" muscle fibres which gave him explosive power. He was one of the quickest players in the Ulster set up - easily a match in speed of the majority of backs. Incredibly strong and didn't just tackle people but actually smashed them at a rate of knots. He probably was one of the greatest 6's ever to play rugby.

Wally was no slouch either. Incredible leg power as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJvsJzKW8U

prawnsambo

jm08 wrote: »

Wally was no slouch either. Incredible leg power as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJvsJzKW8U

Yeah, Wally could push his way through a brick wall and when it collapsed, it would still be moving under Wally power.

facehugger99

Most certainly.

One only has to look at the bench.