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Is this Irish team better than 2009

  • 12-03-2018 4:23pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭ Godot.


    In terms of talent?


«134

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,585 irishfan9


    Yes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    Yes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,071 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    First XV is probably close enough I think but this squad has a better bench and more depth in general. That’s the nature of sport though, standards are constantly being raised broadly speaking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,961 ✭✭✭✭ SteelyDanJalapeno


    ya, well.....

    I think they're more talented, but I think the 2009 would win in a game, some great game winners on that team, BOD, POC, Tommy Bowe


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Godot. wrote: »
    In terms of talent?
    I wouldn't think so. In 2009 we probably had our best ever back row in SOB, Heaslip and Ferris. Definitely a big step down from Conor Murray at SH and a marginal one with ROG v Sexton. Our centres were the best we've ever had (with the proviso that we haven't had a settled centre partnership this year). Then there was POC. The rest of the pack would probably be second best to what we field now and the back three were certainly the equals of the current one, if not better. Two of the highest ever try scorers for Ireland were in that team.

    Our bench this year are far better.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,258 ✭✭✭✭ Clegg


    It probably is. In terms of world class players the '09 side may edge it, but for squad depth the '18 side is so much better.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,585 irishfan9


    Sexton ROG is not marginal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    irishfan9 wrote: »
    Sexton ROG is not marginal.
    I was being nice. Have you no cop on? :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭ JohnFalstaff


    The coach certainly is. Makes all the difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,258 ✭✭✭✭ Clegg


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I wouldn't think so. In 2009 we probably had our best ever back row in SOB, Heaslip and Ferris. Definitely a big step down from Conor Murray at SH and a marginal one with ROG v Sexton. Our centres were the best we've ever had (with the proviso that we haven't had a settled centre partnership this year). Then there was POC. The rest of the pack would probably be second best to what we field now and the back three were certainly the equals of the current one, if not better. Two of the highest ever try scorers for Ireland were in that team.

    Our bench this year are far better.

    It was Wallace rather than SoB. SoB played no part in the Grand Slam year.

    Sexton also a far better player than RoG was that year. I'm not looking to start a **** fight in this. I just think the drop against Wales has glossed over what was a very poor campaign for him performance wise.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭ arsebiscuits1


    Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

    15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
    14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
    13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
    12) Darce/ Aki -
    11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
    10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
    9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
    8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
    7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
    6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
    5) POC/ Toner - No argument
    4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
    3) Hayes/ Furlong -
    2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
    1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
    16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
    17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
    18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
    19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
    20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
    21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
    22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
    23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

    This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Clegg wrote: »
    It was Wallace rather than SoB. SoB played no part in the Grand Slam year.

    Sexton also a far better player than RoG was that year. I'm not looking to start a **** fight in this. I just think the drop against Wales has glossed over what was a very poor campaign for him performance wise.
    Yeah, I only realised after that it was David Wallace. Which still made it our second best ever back row. ;)

    As for ROG. See above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    Can anyone else see where this is about to go?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Can anyone else see where this is about to go?
    Me, me, me!! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭ Webbs


    From a neutrals point of view the 09 team would definitely be the stronger but as said above the squad depth is shaded by the current group but then I think that most teams now boast a stronger depth than they did then, just the nature of the professional era.

    It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    Picking between Furligind and Hayes.
    Please don't make me. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,316 ✭✭✭ Dave_The_Sheep


    Can anyone else see where this is about to go?

    At least we'll be able to answer the question: Is this year's Rugby forum provincial bickering better than 2009.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Picking between Furligind and Hayes.
    Please don't make me. :(
    You don't have to post it because we all know you're thinking it. Aren't you? :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 jr86


    Webbs wrote: »
    It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

    Agree with this. In 2008 wales won the slam and in 2010 France did. Both are way off that level these days

    England's problem was Johnson's selection. I recall vaguely after their dour showing against ourselves, he made a few attacking changes to the side and they cut loose altogether against France and Scotland. Their ceiling in that campaign certainly betters their ceiling in this one (although I do feel they've just hit a temporary slump now)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,229 ✭✭✭✭ Venjur


    jr86 wrote: »
    Agree with this. In 2008 wales won the slam and in 2010 France did. Both are way off that level these days

    England's problem was Johnson's selection. I recall vaguely after their dour showing against ourselves, he made a few attacking changes to the side and they cut loose altogether against France and Scotland. Their ceiling in that campaign certainly betters their ceiling in this one (although I do feel they've just hit a temporary slump now)

    Wales are not miles off that level. They are inconsistent outside the six nations but the truth of the matter is that they were quite close to accounting for Ireland in Dublin and England in London. Either of those games could have swung their way and bring back some of their key injured players and you've a championship winning side imo.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭ jm08


    Webbs wrote: »
    From a neutrals point of view the 09 team would definitely be the stronger but as said above the squad depth is shaded by the current group but then I think that most teams now boast a stronger depth than they did then, just the nature of the professional era.

    It was certainly a more competitive tournament with France and Wales certainly stronger overall than this year and with the way England have got worse every game then I would have to put them in the better in 09 category as well

    Wales won a couple of Grand Slams previous to that, and France won a GS the following year.

    The big difference is that Scotland have improved since then, Wales have gone back a small bit this year (they will be back again) and France have really lost the plot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,847 ✭✭✭ theoneeyedman


    ya, well.....

    I think they're more talented, but I think the 2009 would win in a game, some great game winners on that team, BOD, POC, Tommy Bowe

    Maybe so, but remember, many of the 09 side are in their late 30s or 40s by now.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    jm08 wrote: »
    Wales won a couple of Grand Slams previous to that, and France won a GS the following year.

    The big difference is that Scotland have improved since then, Wales have gone back a small bit this year (they will be back again) and France have really lost the plot.
    I don't actually think France have lost the plot. Brunel has started with the basics and concentrated on defence and it's showing. They have been very difficult to break down and have been a real nuisance at the breakdown for everyone. The attack is all over the place, but they have some excellent players like Grosso and Camara.

    I actually don't think I've seen Maxime Machenaud playing so well, ever. And Trinh Duc is looking in good form too.

    There's a lot to be afraid of with this French side with a bit of organisation creeping in. In a year's time, they could well be a force to be reckoned with. I'm really looking forward to their match against Wales.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 Dog Botherer


    If France were playing at home I'd fancy them against Wales. Should be a tight game but definitely think Wales will win it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭ siltirocker


    Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

    15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
    14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
    13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
    12) Darce/ Aki -
    11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
    10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
    9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
    8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
    7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
    6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
    5) POC/ Toner - No argument
    4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
    3) Hayes/ Furlong -
    2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
    1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
    16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
    17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
    18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
    19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
    20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
    21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
    22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
    23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

    This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

    Not trying to poke holes, but in my opinion Ferris would be ahead of POM, Ferris at often times was talked about as the best 6 in the world. While we still debate whether POM is the best 6 in Ireland.

    Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭ arsebiscuits1


    Not trying to poke holes, but in my opinion Ferris would be ahead of POM, Ferris at often times was talked about as the best 6 in the world. While we still debate whether POM is the best 6 in Ireland.

    Also worth noting that Paddy Wallace started 3 of the games that year ahead of D'Arcy and was in stellar form, and it was noted by Kidney that the only reason he didn't start against Wales was due to a facial injury which would limit the amount of time we could perform for. Something, that many may remember was debated on here for quite some time.

    To be fair, Ferris and POM could be considered a draw. I just think POM is a very important player for Ireland.

    Similarly upon reflection, Leamy was also an excellent player and did tour with the Lions that year. Could consider a draw between him and Nordi.

    D'arcy missed the guts of a year through a horrible broken arm in 2008. Only made his comeback that December. I remember it being match fitness more than form.

    Paddy Wallace, for all the effort he gave in his career, was never anything more than a placeholder at international level


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭ crossman47


    Head to head (team v wales '09 compared to team yesterday)

    15) Rob Kearney/ Rob Kearney - Kearney version 2009 was fantastic. Not a slight on him today. Went on to win 3 lions caps that summer
    14) Tommy Bowe/ Keith Earls - Tommy Bowe really was a phenomenal specimen in his prime. Went on to start 3 Lions tests
    13) BOD/ Ringrose - Ringrose is fantastic. But that was peak BOD imo
    12) Darce/ Aki -
    11) Luke/ Stockdale - Luke a fantastic player. But Stockdale so prolific
    10) ROG/ Sexton - ROG won it with the drop. But Sexton a much more influential player
    9) Tomas O'Leary/ Murray - No argument
    8) Heaslip/ CJ Stander -
    7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
    6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6
    5) POC/ Toner - No argument
    4) O'Callaghan/ Ryan -
    3) Hayes/ Furlong -
    2) Flannery/ Best - Fla was one or Irelands best hookers IMO
    1) Horan/ Healy - No contest
    16) Best/ Cronin - Cronin offers a lot more off the bench than Best circa 2009 IMO
    17) Court/ McGrath - No contest.
    18) N/A/ Porter - Only 1 sub prop in those days. Porter a better TH than all other Irish TH in 09 except Hayes
    19) Mick O'Driscoll/ Henderson - Roux or Dillane also would have pipped O'Driscoll in this instance
    20) Leamy/ Jordi - Jordi offers a lot more than Leamy did IMO
    21) Stringer/ Marmion - Marmion a much more complete player than Stringer
    22) Paddy Wallace/ Carbery - My how things have come on since 09 - Paddy Wallace the back up 10? Dark days
    23) Geordan Murphy/ Larmour - Murphy a fantastic player and deserved all his 78 caps

    This head to head is mostly a mixture of how they performed on the day, but also their influence on the team throughout the championship

    I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭ siltirocker



    Similarly upon reflection, Leamy was also an excellent player and did tour with the Lions that year. Could consider a draw between him and Nordi.

    Hmm, I don't think Leamy came anywhere close to being a Lion, and I have no memory of him being one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭ arsebiscuits1


    crossman47 wrote: »
    I'd broadly agree although there are a few marginal calls. However there is one blatant wrong call imo. Stringer was far superior to Marmion and he was in fact let go far too early by Munster and it has cost them.

    I was reluctant to call too many draws just purely to get conversation going.

    Stringer was an excellent player and it is quite possible that I am doing him less justice than deserved due to the amount of time that has passed.

    I just think Marmion offers a good running game, combined with his underrated box kicking ability.

    I feel Strings really only had the passing game in his locker that was top drawer


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  • Registered Users Posts: 854 RoundBox11


    7) Wallace/ Leavy - Leavy a much more complete 7 for me
    6) Ferris/ POM - POM a much more complete 6

    I'd take a one armed Ferris over o'mahony every day of the week. Not even close imo.

    I think Wallace was immense also. Possibly overshadowed by the class we've had since him but he was a cracking player.


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