DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk · 07-03-2018 2:44pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes there are stations at three of the LCs but not at Sandymount Ave. However, not all trains stop at all stations. Diesels do not stop at Sandymount, and many do not stop at Lansdowne or Sydney Parade.

Also, there is not consistent speed of any trains - some race by and some creep by.

To be honest, I expect this issue will go away in time. I suspect the Deisels will end up terminating at Bray and it will be only DARTs running on this section.

Alternatively, the Diesels get replaced by hybrid Diesel/Electrics and they end running similar speeds and stops as DARTs.

Once you get to 10 minute or lower DARTs you can't continue to mix DMU's and EMU's like they have until now.

roadmaster · 07-03-2018 4:39pm

i was thinking with the current full out assault on the diesel engine just look this week what happened in Germany with the diesel cars ruling and even Toyota's announcement yesterday to finish up production of diesel cars could we be looking at pressure on IE to get rid of there diesel trains sooner than we think either through pure electrification or hybrids? This could force them to speed up dart expansion especially in commuter runs.

lucernarian · 08-03-2018 6:35am

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't speed a consideration also?

It isn't in the case of Porterstown as far as I'm aware, the curvature of the track (and sightlines) are prominent issues at that location.

murphaph · 08-03-2018 9:01am

MJohnston wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't speed a consideration also?

It is, but as Sam Russell pointed out, there are stations right beside nearly every level crossing on the south DART section we've been discussing, which means trains would be slow anyway. Similar at somewhere like Clonsilla too.

But at somewhere like Clonsilla it especially makes sense to close the crossing and divert over a bridge! Trains approaching Clonsilla station from Maynooth cause the gates to close (safety reasons, in case the train overshoots) and traffic to build up for several minutes while the train slows coming in to the station, stops, passengers embark and disembark and the train slowly pulls out of the station....and that's when nothing goes wrong or a disabled passenger needs extra assistance etc.

Sam...I have no idea of cost, sorry. I just maintain that we tend to overestimate the engineering challenge wrt anything railway related in Ireland, while the road builders aren't at all shy of building very large and expensive structures to get the job done.

bk · 08-03-2018 4:23pm

roadmaster wrote: »

i was thinking with the current full out assault on the diesel engine just look this week what happened in Germany with the diesel cars ruling and even Toyota's announcement yesterday to finish up production of diesel cars could we be looking at pressure on IE to get rid of there diesel trains sooner than we think either through pure electrification or hybrids? This could force them to speed up dart expansion especially in commuter runs.

I've heard some mutterings about using Biogas for buses and trains.

It is not a local zero emissions technology like fully electric is, but it is better then Diesel and helps greatly with CO2 emissions. Perhaps hybrid electric/Biogas?

I'm not sure how realistic it is.

To be fair, just going hybrid electric/diesel and electrifying the commuter lines and having those trains run electric closer to the city would be a fantastic step in the right direction, trains running Diesel further out wouldn't be as big an issue.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2018 9:29am

bk wrote: »

I've heard some mutterings about using Biogas for buses and trains.

It is not a local zero emissions technology like fully electric is, but it is better then Diesel and helps greatly with CO2 emissions. Perhaps hybrid electric/Biogas?

I'm not sure how realistic it is.

To be fair, just going hybrid electric/diesel and electrifying the commuter lines and having those trains run electric closer to the city would be a fantastic step in the right direction, trains running Diesel further out wouldn't be as big an issue.

Electric isn't really zero emissions in Ireland anyway, given the fairly dirty electricity we create.

bk · 09-03-2018 9:52am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Electric isn't really zero emissions in Ireland anyway, given the fairly dirty electricity we create.

Zero emissions pertains to local pollution. Their is literally zero emissions out of the back of an EV or DART. No PM's or NOX, like from a Diesel which cause cancer and various other horrible health issues.

So yes they are zero emissions and if that was their only benefit it would still be well worth it. Eliminating Diesel from our cities would make them much healthier.

Global emissions, CO2 which causes global warming is a bit more complicated. Of course it depends on how the electricity is generated. EV's and EMU's at least have the ability to be zero emissions. It differs from country to country depending on how each country generates electricity. For instance in Norway or France they would be really close to be truly zero emissions as they use Hydro and Nuclear to generate electricity.

Here in Ireland we generate our electricity about 25% wind, 50% gas (which produces WAY less CO2 then Diesel or coal) and 25% coal/peat. This means these aren't zero emissions in terms of CO2, but they are still WAY better then diesel. An EV in Ireland produces about 1/3rd the amount of CO2 per 100km travelled versus a typical Diesel car. So still well worth it.

And an important point, the grid can get cleaner, which of course makes all EV's and EMU's even cleaner. 20 years ago the grid was far dirtier then today. 2% wind, 65% coal/peat, 25% gas, it has cut the amount of co2 almost in half in the past 20 years and it will only continue to get cleaner. Wind continues to ramp up and the government has already announced that the peat plants and moneypoint (the only coal plant left) will be converted or closed by 2030.

So no, our electricity is not fairly dirty.

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 4:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is justification for more trains from Wexford. There could be an extra Dart train to provide for the Wexford passengers. The Wexford train has 3 or 4 coaches and so, even at crush, would not fill a 8 coach Dart. The replacemet Dart need not stop at all station to Connolly, only at those served by the diesel.

That is a timetable issue. Any train turned back at Bray is an hour or more worth of train time available for either more service to Wexford to other services.

Currently a 6 coach IC train heads down from Connolly to DL at about 10 am to park, and return empty at 1:15 pm from DL back again to Connolly. If there is a shortage of stock, maybe they could use that set for something. There is plenty of dead running on the system as it is.

Let's be honest about this, the future of the railway line south of Greystones is primarily as a commuter service into and out of Dublin. Since the M11 opened the coach services have cornered the market to/from Gorey, Enniscorthy and Wexford, and the notion that the railway is going to be a serious competitor for that Intercity market is a fantasy, due to the speed restrictions and the inland diversion via Rathdrum.

The need for trains is towards Dublin in the morning peak and in the evenings southwards. The main market is from Arklow northwards. Expecting everyone to detrain at Bray on a busy peak hour commuter service is frankly nuts. It's also an insult to people paying a premium (i.e. Intercity prices) for their tickets to expect them to use a DART connection between Bray and the city centre.

The two early morning trains towards Dublin are used to operate other services for which there is currently no rolling stock available. The set that lays over at DL only arrives back in the city centre at 10:30 - well after the other services operated by the Rosslare line stock have departed the city centre. That is a complete red herring. It's a reality not a trifling timetable issue as you seem to think.

If and when more stock is available, then (and only then) do I think that an increase in service south of Greystones will happen. Turning either of the two existing trains at Bray would facilitate an improved peak service south of Greystones for existing or new passengers.

LeinsterDub · 11-03-2018 4:57pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Expecting everyone to detrain at Bray on a busy peak hour commuter service is frankly nuts..

Busy by what metric? Certainly not busier than Dart and Dublin commuter trains.

In an ideal world we'd have capacity on the mainline to run all the services we want but we quite simply don't.

Why is asking people to walk about 10 metres nuts? People don't give a second thought interchanging between Buses, Luas or Dart.

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 5:25pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Busy by what metric? Certainly not busier than Dart and Dublin commuter trains.

In an ideal world we'd have capacity on the mainline to run all the services we want but we quite simply don't.

Why is asking people to walk about 10 metres nuts? People don't give a second thought interchanging between Buses, Luas or Dart.

The trains are standing room only leaving Wicklow - I think that would class as busy. Off-peak perhaps you could turn a train at Bray, but certainly not the core peak services.

Also people changing between Dublin Bus, LUAS or DART aren't paying Intercity prices for their commute. There is a significant difference between the two.

And actually there is capacity to allow the services continue on that section. The infrastructure is capable of handling 16 trains per hour (in total) between Grand Canal Dock and Bray which can facilitate the 10 minute DART, and the trains from south of Greystones, along with some additional DARTs at the height of the peak.

Running higher frequency DART services than a core 10-minute service supplemented by a few extra peak services is unlikely, given the need to share track space between Grand Canal Dock and Howth Junction with other services (Maynooth, Northern Line and Enterprise). A mix of eight and six car DART at 10 minute intervals (with a few extra peak hour queue busters) would more than be sufficient.

The notion that you need to terminate the trains at Bray is a nonsense.

Ireland trains · 11-03-2018 5:30pm

If irish rail speed up the trains to rosslare increase the service to 7pd they could have off peak trains terminating at Bray and peak time trains to Dublin.
Also possible with the bi mode trains to extend some DART services to wicklow

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 5:33pm

murphaph wrote: »

You wouldn't need to close the up and down lines. You do one at a time. You drive a steel retaining wall into the ground and work on one side. The other side has single line running.

There's single line running on some stretch of the Berlin ubahn (and any other major mass transit system in the world, lest some people get their knickers in a twist about a German example-didn't realise this had become like the comments section of the Daily Express!) probably every day. It's what signals are for.

We raised the N25 (now N40 I believe) over the roundabouts without shutting it.

The only issue here is nimbyism. But if you bought a property adjacent to a railway you have to accept it may see development.

It's a bit more than nimbyism. The podium above the tracks used to access Lansdowne Road stadium is a rather large physical issue.

The proposed bridge at Merrion could (at a push) facilitate two level crossing closures (Merrion and Sydney Parade), leaving Lansdowne Road and Serpentine in place, which I think would be possible.

I don't see the need for the kind of massive disruption that your suggestion would bring (physical and political!) as the line capacity would be sufficient for the 10 minute DART, Intercity and a few extra DARTs at the height of the peak.

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 5:34pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

If irish rail speed up the trains to rosslare increase the service to 7pd they could have off peak trains terminating at Bray and peak time trains to Dublin.
Also possible with the bi mode trains to extend some DART services to wicklow

How do you propose they "speed up the trains"?

The speed south of Wicklow is constrained by the infrastructure of the permanent way, and it's very unlikely that further speed improvements could be gained from it.

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 5:41pm

bk wrote: »

To be honest, I expect this issue will go away in time. I suspect the Deisels will end up terminating at Bray and it will be only DARTs running on this section.

Alternatively, the Diesels get replaced by hybrid Diesel/Electrics and they end running similar speeds and stops as DARTs.

Once you get to 10 minute or lower DARTs you can't continue to mix DMU's and EMU's like they have until now.

It is perfectly possible to operate the through DMU service and a 10 minute-DART. It does mean that the journey time between Dublin and Greystones on the DMU is slower than it could possibly be, but it is certainly possible for the two to co-exist and stating the contrary is utter tosh.

LeinsterDub · 11-03-2018 5:43pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The notion that you need to terminate the trains at Bray is a nonsense.

If the capacity exists then I agree with you but we have been told be need DU as the mainline is a bottle neck so which is it?

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 5:57pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If the capacity exists then I agree with you but we have been told be need DU as the mainline is a bottle neck so which is it?

That depends on what bottleneck you are referring to and what you are defining the "mainline" as?

The principal capacity issue on the network that would be addressed by DU is at Connolly as currently every inbound Maynooth line service conflicts with a service heading out along the Northern line. DART Underground avoids that conflict as DART services from the Northern Line would no longer serve Connolly and would swing down to Spencer Dock and around to Pearse thus avoiding the at grade junction with the Maynooth line.

The main capacity issues include the lack of space north of Connolly that would facilitate Northern Line and Enterprise services overtaking stopping DART services. The 10-minute DART is going to have be compromised at times to facilitate them, or those will suffer longer distance services will take longer, and the need to complete the final part of the City Centre Resignalling Project, which is the resignalling of Connolly Station. DART Underground does nothing to solve them.

I will reiterate, that south of Grand Canal Dock there is currently capacity for 16 trains per hour in total. That can facilitate a 10 minute DART in both directions, plus the Intercity service, plus a few queue-busting DARTs (which could start at Bray or at Dun Laoghaire).

D.L.R. · 11-03-2018 7:57pm

DU would solve the Maynooth conflict, but it's not the only way to eliminate it.

If you moved all Maynooth line services to the western side of the station you'd have no conflict with northern line trains.

So for Maynooth commuter trains, just run them through the Dart platforms and across the Loop. And for Intercity to Sligo etc, there's a huge car park and defunct wheelhouse beside the Dart platforms that regulars would be familiar with. Build a platform there and terminate Sligo trains on it. There's also a lot of space between the Dart platforms and main station as anyone who's walked through the station for a Dart will be aware. There are options if there is money to spend.

Open to correction, but I think that removes all conflicts. People talk about Connolly as if its this insurmountable rock in the centre of the network and the only answer is to avoid it. But there's plenty of scope to improve it if the state was willing to spend the money and get serious about rail. We should be thinking of more engineering solutions around Connolly.

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 8:05pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

DU would solve the Maynooth conflict, but it's not the only way to eliminate it.

If you moved all Maynooth line services to the western side of the station you'd have no conflict with northern line trains.

So for Maynooth commuter trains, just run them through the Dart platforms and across the Loop. And for Intercity to Sligo etc, there's a huge car park and defunct wheelhouse beside the Dart platforms that regulars would be familiar with. Build a platform there and terminate Sligo trains on it. There's also a lot of space between the Dart platforms and main station as anyone who's walked through the station for a Dart will be aware. There are options if there is money to spend.

Open to correction, but I think that removes all conflicts. People talk about Connolly as if its this insurmountable rock in the centre of the network and the only answer is to avoid it. But there's plenty of scope to improve it if the state was willing to spend the money and get serious about rail. We should be thinking of more engineering solutions around Connolly.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but any train going across the loop line bridge from the Maynooth line will have to cross over the northbound line at Connolly at some point (either north or south of the station) to access the southbound line.

D.L.R. · 11-03-2018 8:12pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble, but any train going across the loop line bridge from the Maynooth line will have to cross over the northbound line at Connolly at some point (either north or south of the station) to access the southbound line.

What if you realign the platforms so that Maynooth have two dedicated tracks west of the Dart?

EDIT: never mind I see the only solution is grade separation. Something which should be seriously considered.

LXFlyer · 11-03-2018 8:19pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

What if you realign the platforms so that Maynooth have two dedicated tracks west of the Dart?

There are only two tracks on the loop line bridge.

To access the southbound one any train would have to cross the northbound one at grade north of or directly south of Connolly. There is no way around that.

You’d avoid conflicts all right with your proposal, provided no Maynooth line trains went south of Connolly.

Stephen15 · 11-03-2018 8:49pm

bk wrote: »

Zero emissions pertains to local pollution. Their is literally zero emissions out of the back of an EV or DART. No PM's or NOX, like from a Diesel which cause cancer and various other horrible health issues.

So yes they are zero emissions and if that was their only benefit it would still be well worth it. Eliminating Diesel from our cities would make them much healthier.

Global emissions, CO2 which causes global warming is a bit more complicated. Of course it depends on how the electricity is generated. EV's and EMU's at least have the ability to be zero emissions. It differs from country to country depending on how each country generates electricity. For instance in Norway or France they would be really close to be truly zero emissions as they use Hydro and Nuclear to generate electricity.

Here in Ireland we generate our electricity about 25% wind, 50% gas (which produces WAY less CO2 then Diesel or coal) and 25% coal/peat. This means these aren't zero emissions in terms of CO2, but they are still WAY better then diesel. An EV in Ireland produces about 1/3rd the amount of CO2 per 100km travelled versus a typical Diesel car. So still well worth it.

And an important point, the grid can get cleaner, which of course makes all EV's and EMU's even cleaner. 20 years ago the grid was far dirtier then today. 2% wind, 65% coal/peat, 25% gas, it has cut the amount of co2 almost in half in the past 20 years and it will only continue to get cleaner. Wind continues to ramp up and the government has already announced that the peat plants and moneypoint (the only coal plant left) will be converted or closed by 2030.

So no, our electricity is not fairly dirty.

Unlike EVs electric trains are nothing new. Here in Ireland and in the UK electrification has never really taken off, the UK has one of lowest rates of electrification compared to other large similar sized European countries such as France, Germany, Spain and Italy. Electrification has plenty of other benefits other than environmental ones including faster trains, better suited to stop start running, electric trains require less maintence than diesel trains and last the trains longer than diesel.

I think that BRT (if being built) should be built as a trolleybus system as trolleybuses would be easier to run to run than EVs as they don't require charging and are more reliable than an EV atm. I don't see why Dublin can't have some trolleybus lines they would be cheaper to build than light rail and most modern trolleybuses can run off the wires if needs be.

murphaph · 12-03-2018 8:59am

LXFlyer wrote: »

There are only two tracks on the loop line bridge.

To access the southbound one any train would have to cross the northbound one at grade north of or directly south of Connolly. There is no way around that.

You’d avoid conflicts all right with your proposal, provided no Maynooth line trains went south of Connolly.

I've long proposed on this forum that either Maynooth line trains should terminate at P7 and get back out quickly or preferably and certainly (if Maynooth is converted to DART) that Northern Line trains should all terminate at Connolly, DARTs at P4/P5 to allow quick change to Maynooth line services. This would need there to be genuine 10 minute frequency if not better in the rush hour on both lines to ensure relatively quick change and ensure there's actual capacity on the trains.

It would be operationally easier to allow Maynooth through running on P6/P7 as terminating northern line trains on P5/P4 still allows an "escape route" into Connolly shed for failed trains that cannot immediately continue in service. A failed Maynooth line train would sit at P7, blocking the whole show.

bk · 12-03-2018 12:35pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think that BRT (if being built) should be built as a trolleybus system as trolleybuses would be easier to run to run than EVs as they don't require charging and are more reliable than an EV atm. I don't see why Dublin can't have some trolleybus lines they would be cheaper to build than light rail and most modern trolleybuses can run off the wires if needs be.

It seems BRT isn't going ahead unfortunately.

Instead BusConnects, with high frequency core routes operated by the usual double deckers :rolleyes:

Though there is talk about three door double deckers now, so maybe we will get some of those lovely Berlin style dual stairs, three door double deckers on this routes.

There is talk of all city buses transitioning to green buses from 2019. At first that probably just means hybrid battery / Diesel. Though it might also mean biogas or biofuel. Eventually I suspect they will go fully EV.

Overhead cabling is actually very expensive to install and faces lots of planning objections. I suspect EV battery tech will overtake it over the next ten years anywhere, so I'd say it would be a waste to go trolley bus now.

hmmm · 12-03-2018 12:41pm

bk wrote: »

Though there is talk about three door double deckers now, so maybe we will get some of those lovely Berlin style dual stairs, three door double deckers on this routes.

Only worth bothering if passengers could board at any door IMO. The slowdowns are at loading, and rarely at unloading.

murphaph · 12-03-2018 12:55pm

hmmm wrote: »

Only worth bothering if passengers could board at any door IMO. The slowdowns are at loading, and rarely at unloading.

It works best when no alighting passengers attempt to use the front doors and instead use the centre and preferably the rear doors.

This leaves the front and centre doors free for boarding passengers.

bk · 12-03-2018 12:58pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Let's be honest about this, the future of the railway line south of Greystones is primarily as a commuter service into and out of Dublin. Since the M11 opened the coach services have cornered the market to/from Gorey, Enniscorthy and Wexford, and the notion that the railway is going to be a serious competitor for that Intercity market is a fantasy, due to the speed restrictions and the inland diversion via Rathdrum.

The need for trains is towards Dublin in the morning peak and in the evenings southwards. The main market is from Arklow northwards. Expecting everyone to detrain at Bray on a busy peak hour commuter service is frankly nuts. It's also an insult to people paying a premium (i.e. Intercity prices) for their tickets to expect them to use a DART connection between Bray and the city centre.

Interestingly your first paragraph above clearly shows why the trains should be terminated at Bray and people transferred to DART.

So few are using the line, then it better to slightly discommode them for a better service for the vastly greater numbers of passengers on the line north of Bray and ironically would also give a better service south of Bray (allow it to be turned around quicker.

Lets out some actual numbers to this. According to the 2015 rail census, just 2,117 people used the intercity service on the South Eastern Line and that includes people getting on at Greystones and Dun Laoghaire.

By comparison 23,000 got on from Bray in.

In fact adding up all the stations south of Greystones, it is a whopping 681 people!!

So you are talking about just 681 people versus 20,000+

I have to say, people need to get use to the idea of changing transport for an overall better service.

We are going to see this happen at south of Sandyford when the Green Line is upgraded to Metro.

It is going to happen way more across the Dublin City Bus network with Bus Connects.

We will likely to see it happen at Howth Junction and around Connolly when the other lines are electrified.

Changing trains/buses/trams is absolutely normal on a high quality public transport network.

bk · 12-03-2018 1:01pm

hmmm wrote: »

Only worth bothering if passengers could board at any door IMO. The slowdowns are at loading, and rarely at unloading.

The way it works on these buses in Berlin is:

Enter via the front door, up the front stairs.
Exit via the rear stairs and rear doors.

The center door is used for wheelchairs, buggies and elderly.

The flow through the bus is highly regimented. Signs every where with arrows pointing the direction of passenger flow and in some cases, even one way flappy doors.

LXFlyer · 12-03-2018 2:34pm

bk wrote: »

Interestingly your first paragraph above clearly shows why the trains should be terminated at Bray and people transferred to DART.

So few are using the line, then it better to slightly discommode them for a better service for the vastly greater numbers of passengers on the line north of Bray and ironically would also give a better service south of Bray (allow it to be turned around quicker.

Lets out some actual numbers to this. According to the 2015 rail census, just 2,117 people used the intercity service on the South Eastern Line and that includes people getting on at Greystones and Dun Laoghaire.

By comparison 23,000 got on from Bray in.

In fact adding up all the stations south of Greystones, it is a whopping 681 people!!

So you are talking about just 681 people versus 20,000+

I have to say, people need to get use to the idea of changing transport for an overall better service.

We are going to see this happen at south of Sandyford when the Green Line is upgraded to Metro.

It is going to happen way more across the Dublin City Bus network with Bus Connects.

We will likely to see it happen at Howth Junction and around Connolly when the other lines are electrified.

Changing trains/buses/trams is absolutely normal on a high quality public transport network.

And how many trains make up that figure? You are comparing apples and oranges.

People are paying full Intercity fares south of Greystones - not suburban fares and as such I think are entitled to a through service.

Running the train through to Connolly alongside the 10 minute DART service is perfectly possible - it has no bearing on that service so I fail to see why you would force people who are paying a significant premium to have to change when it is completely unnecessary. You seem to be incapable of grasping that it is possible for both to co-exist without diminishing the 10 minute DART.

LeinsterDub · 12-03-2018 3:19pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

People are paying full Intercity fares south of Greystones - not suburban fares and as such I think are entitled to a through service.

Fine we'll charge them a suburban fares seems like an easy fix.

Bray Head · 12-03-2018 3:20pm

Can someone tell me why the Bray-Tara service has slowed from 35 minutes in the mid-80s to about 40 minutes today?

From memory the draft 10-minute frequency had it at 45 minutes.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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