DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Can someone tell me why the Bray-Tara service has slowed from 35 minutes in the mid-80s to about 40 minutes today?

From memory the draft 10-minute frequency had it at 45 minutes.

More trains using the space, particularly from GCD northwards plus one extra stop en route. Higher usage at stations can also mean longer dwell times required at peak.

The current DART schedule is not fit for purpose as it doesn’t reflect actual running times. One look at the DART punctuality will tell you that. But to change it would require new rosters, and the unions are blocking that pending the resolution of the mentoring dispute.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Fine we'll charge them a suburban fares seems like an easy fix.

From Rosslare?
I don’t think that’s going to happen! You’d have serious issues with passengers on other Intercity routes.

Again, why is any of this necessary?

Neither you nor bk have put forward a reason why they can’t continue other than you don’t think it’s a good idea?

I’ve explained in detail that there are no infrastructural reasons why they and the 10 minute DART cannot continue to co-exist, which seems to be the argument that you are putting forward (that they can’t co-exist - which is a nonsense).

The fact that those trains then operate services to Sligo and Dundalk from Connolly that would otherwise be cancelled might be another reason for their continued existence.

LeinsterDub

LXFlyer wrote: »

More trains using the space, particularly from GCD northwards plus one extra stop en route. Higher usage at stations can also mean longer dwell times required at peak.

The current DART schedule is not fit for purpose as it doesn’t reflect actual running times. One look at the DART punctuality will tell you that. But to change it would require new rosters, and the unions are blocking that pending the resolution of the mentoring dispute.

Also GCD is a recent addition which probably adds about 2-3 minutes at peak

bk

LXFlyer wrote: »

And how many trains make up that figure? You are comparing apples and oranges.

Who is comparing apples and oranges now!

The numbers of trains doesn't matter! The numbers using each service along the line and the potential of the catchment areas is far more important.

You earlier said that there are large numbers using this route. 681 people a day certainly isn't large numbers in anyones books.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Running the train through to Connolly alongside the 10 minute DART service is perfectly possible - it has no bearing on that service so I fail to see why you would force people who are paying a significant premium to have to change when it is completely unnecessary. You seem to be incapable of grasping that it is possible for both to co-exist without diminishing the 10 minute DART.

Well first of all, when we go to 10 minute DARTs. The Intercity service will almost certainly become much slower as it will be constrained by the stopping nature of the DARTs.

Either it will itself become a stopping service like the DART, stopping at each station or it will crawl along behind the DART in front of it. Either way the relatively small number of folks on this line will lose out compared to the much higher number of users on the DART.

The only question is if they have to change or not. Either way it will be much the same journey time.

Routing the DMU's in with the DARTS has pros and cons.

The only real pro is that folks won't have to spend 30 seconds changing trains.

But there are a few cons. Firstly mixing DMU's and high frequency DARTs and their differing acceleration/deceleration speeds can make things more complicated in terms of operations and signalling.

Secondly, you lose out on the ability to turn the trains back around at Bray and thus doubling the frequency on the Rosslare line, which would be a big lose in my books.

BTW I also say that eventually we may end up talking about 5 minute DARTs on that line and then you almost certainly can't mix them with DMU's then. Plus there will be all the complexity of bringing DARTs on the newly electrified Maynooth and Phoenix Park Tunnel line around Connolly.

So if both can be accommodated without compromise, then cool. However I really don't see a big deal with slightly discommoding 681 people for 30 seconds if it means an overall better network.

bk

LXFlyer wrote: »

Neither you nor bk have put forward a reason why they can’t continue other than you don’t think it’s a good idea?

I'll give you another reason, in addition to what I said above. Wicklow to Bray is 30 minutes or less. Here is an idea. You could make Wicklow to Bray a shuttle service. A single train running back and forward every 30 minutes similar to Cobh in Cork.

Wicklow Town would go from 5 trains a day. To somewhere in the region of 30 trains a day!

It would also mean Greystones, where in fact the vast majority of passengers on this line board, would go from a train every 30 minutes, to one every 15 minutes. A nice improvement too.

I'm sure if you asked the people of Greystones or Wicklow would they be willing to put up with a 30 seconds change for that level of increase in service, they would jump at it.

Of course it wouldn't do much for those beyond Wicklow Town. But realistically you are getting too far for any sort of reasonable commute from Dublin anyway.

However such a service might allow the area around Greystones and south of it to be continue to be developed as a commuter region of Dublin.

roadmaster

To help with ten minute darts could you expand the size of Docklands and make it the fourth Dublin station and send all Sligo/Mullingar/Maynooth trains to it instead of connolly?

bk

roadmaster wrote: »

To help with ten minute darts could you expand the size of Docklands and make it the fourth Dublin station and send all Sligo/Mullingar/Maynooth trains to it instead of connolly?

Yes, I suspect that will end up being part of the plan, plus a big transfer station around Whitworth Road.

Thing is, I think this electrification project is going to be much bigger then people imagine. 2 billion is being set aside for it and that is quiet a lot without a tunnel.

Simple electrification should only cost 100 million or so and new trains maybe towards 1 billion or so. But that still leaves 1 billion or so unaccounted for.

I'd expect other big station and track relaginments to make it all work. Probably back station works, platforms and track alignments at Hueston, Connolly, Docklands and a new big station at Whitworth Road. Plus some other bits and pieces around the place. I wouldn't take anything for granted. It will be very interesting to see what emerges from all this.

Bray Head

bk wrote: »

I'll give you another reason, in addition to what I said above. Wicklow to Bray is 30 minutes or less. Here is an idea. You could make Wicklow to Bray a shuttle service. A single train running back and forward every 30 minutes similar to Cobh in Cork.

Wicklow Town would go from 5 trains a day. To somewhere in the region of 30 trains a day!

It would also mean Greystones, where in fact the vast majority of passengers on this line board, would go from a train every 30 minutes, to one every 15 minutes. A nice improvement too.

I'm sure if you asked the people of Greystones or Wicklow would they be willing to put up with a 30 seconds change for that level of increase in service, they would jump at it.

Of course it wouldn't do much for those beyond Wicklow Town. But realistically you are getting too far for any sort of reasonable commute from Dublin anyway.
People don't realise how little-used the service south of Greystones is. Census 2016 showed that a mere 227 people resident in Wicklow Town used the train for work or college daily. 

Wicklow Town is about as far from Dublin as Drogheda. In Drogheda, by contrast, you have 706 daily users - about three times as many.

There may be operational reasons for continuing trains from south of Bray all the way to the city centre. But you would be discommoding a small group of people by making them transfer to DART at Bray. Many presumably do so already to get to stations that the Rosslare service doesn't currently stop at.

D.L.R.

LXFlyer wrote: »

There are only two tracks on the loop line bridge.

To access the southbound one any train would have to cross the northbound one at grade north of or directly south of Connolly. There is no way around that.

But DU doesn't really solve this issue, it just swaps it for a virtually identical problem.

DU trains heading northbound will have to cross over the southbound tracks when they join the northern line.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

But DU doesn't really solve this issue, it just swaps it for a virtually identical problem.

DU trains heading northbound will have to cross over the southbound tracks when they join the northern line.

Actually it does significantly deal with it as the Connolly starters heading north would be significantly less in number than the Maynooth Line services.

A grade separated junction could be part of the project at East Wall junction - much easier than in the Connolly environs.

That being said the Northern Line will need additional capacity in the form of a third or fourth track between Killester and Raheny plus additional loops north of Howrah Junction.

D.L.R.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Actually it does significantly deal with it as the Connolly starters heading north would be significantly less in number than the Maynooth Line services.

Can you expand on that? Unless Northern Commuter services are diverted into the DU tunnel I don't see it. And if you end up doing that, and diverting Sligo and Maynooth towards Docklands, what are you actually left with at Connolly besides Enterprise? The long term vision for this whole section of the railway is very wishy washy imo.

LXFlyer wrote: »

A grade separated junction could be part of the project at East Wall junction - much easier than in the Connolly environs.

That being said the Northern Line will need additional capacity in the form of a third or fourth track between Killester and Raheny plus additional loops north of Howrah Junction.

Its a flat junction in the most recent DU plan, which is currently under review for affordability, so I won't get my hopes up.

The northern line really is DU's achilles heel, the state can't ignore it forever. Its the railway equivalent of a single lane N road with roundabouts and its expected to do the job of a motorway.

LXFlyer

I have serious reservations about the NTA plans as they have very little railway operational experience, and am focussing more on the IE plans themselves.

However, by the time DU is delivered most Northern Line trains will either be DART/bi-mode operated, so yes they would be more likely to use the tunnel to terminate at Heuston perhaps.

Maynooth services would operate south to Bray or terminate at Connolly.

Why send Sligo trains to Docklands unnecessarily?

The conflicts would be far less consequently - you’d really only be talking about the Enterprise.

The real elephant in the room is the Northern Line capacity as you rightly say..

Colonel Claptrap

I'm keen to hear opinions on increasing capacity on the northern line.

1. In an ideal world, what should happen?

2. What will likely happen given the realities we face with transport infrastructure in Ireland?

marno21

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I'm keen to hear opinions on increasing capacity on the northern line.

1. In an ideal world, what should happen?

2. What will likely happen given the realities we face with transport infrastructure in Ireland?

1. 4 tracks.
2. Nothing. Nothing will happen before 2027 anyway except service increases on the line. Perhaps something might be done post 2027 if the interconnector tunnel is built

cgcsb

With Brexit we might not have an Enterprise service to worry about at all
With Metro North and a future large station at Whitworth Road for interchange I see no problem with terminating Sligo Services at a special platform at Whitworth. You could even have an increased frequency Sligo service that way.
Rosslare services will be an afterthought also, that leaves us with commuter services only to worry about.

I would see there being a simple 3 line DART System
Hazelhatch-Grand Canal Dock with new stations at Heuston West, Cabra and Whitworth Road and KRP2 in place

M3 and Maynooth to Docklands again serving new station at Whitworth road offering great connections

Then Drogheda-Greystones with a shuttle service to Howth from Howth junction

Then you have plenty of room for 10 minute service on all three lines. The loopline would have a train every 5 minutes per direction.

With hybrid trains you'll be able to operate some of the DARTs to service Longer Distance routes e.g. Dundalk-Gorey, Longford-Grand Canal Dock and Portlaoise-Grand canal dock

loyatemu

how would you get from Maynooth to (say) Lansdowne Rd - change at Whitworth and again at Tara?

Docklands is a poor option for most people, unless you work in the north Docks area its a long way from anywhere.

the loop line is signalled for 20 trains an hour - that's plenty to accommodate services from all 3 lines feeding into it. You just need more turnback facilities on the southside, a combination of trains terminating at GCD (with an extra platform there maybe) and Dun Laoghaire perhaps?

Amirani

marno21 wrote: »

1. 4 tracks.

I know this is likely to be very costly and perhaps difficult in an engineering sense. But hypothetically speaking; How much of the line would be very difficult to 4 track? Would there be a huge amount of CPOing? Would you only look to 4 track certain sections.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

how would you get from Maynooth to (say) Lansdowne Rd - change at Whitworth and again at Tara?

Docklands is a poor option for most people, unless you work in the north Docks area its a long way from anywhere.

the loop line is signalled for 20 trains an hour - that's plenty to accommodate services from all 3 lines feeding into it. You just need more turnback facilities on the southside, a combination of trains terminating at GCD (with an extra platform there maybe) and Dun Laoghaire perhaps?

Yeah so the loopline can take a train every 3 minutes per direction. My proposed simplified 3 line DART would mean a train every 5 minutes per Direction. If you had 3 lines crossing the loopline you'd be at 100% capacity from day 1 which is not desireable. the slightest delay would ruin the schedule for the day.

Someone going from Maynooth to Landowne would have to change twice which is unfortunate but most those changes would be very quick, 5 minutes wait and jump on and same again, you also wouldn't have to change platforms for the second change. That's the best we can really do without DART underground in place.

Unless we built a new station, a 'Connolly North' if you will that served as an interchange between Drogheda-Bray and Maynooth-Docklands.

Ireland trains

I think that Irish rail should 4 track the line from Hazelhatch to Kildare before there is more properties beside the line so it would be a lot cheaper and hen the DART could run as far as Kildare.
Also Irish rail could terminate 3 Maynooth trains in Docklands and 3 Drogheda trains in Connolly platform 4/3 and have 3 Drogheda and 3 Maynooth trains run to bray/Greystones

strassenwo!f

cgcsb wrote: »

With Metro North and a future large station at Whitworth Road for interchange I see no problem with terminating Sligo Services at a special platform at Whitworth. You could even have an increased frequency Sligo service that way.
Rosslare services will be an afterthought also, that leaves us with commuter services only to worry about.

I imagine it would be politically impossible for that to happen, as it is important for all the major rail-connected towns or cities in Ireland to have a proper, direct connection with the capital, and that means with either Heuston or Connolly. Much as what you say might make sense from a rail point of view, changing the Sligo train to a terminus at Whitworth Road means downgrading that train and, by extension the town - soon, perhaps, to be a city - and its hinterland in an overall Irish context.

For that reason, I doubt that this idea is a runner.

cgcsb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I imagine it would be politically impossible for that to happen, as it is important for all the major rail-connected towns or cities in Ireland to have a proper, direct connection with the capital, and that means with either Heuston or Connolly. Much as what you say might make sense from a rail point of view, changing the Sligo train to a terminus at Whitworth Road means downgrading that train and, by extension the town - soon, perhaps, to be a city - and its hinterland in an overall Irish context.

For that reason, I doubt that this idea is a runner.

I don't see why. In terms of connections it could be just as advantageous as Heuston Station. With Metro in place Sligo to the Airport would be an absolute breeze, much handier than any other inter city route in the country. Metro would also bring you to most of central Dublin in 4 mins.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Yeah so the loopline can take a train every 3 minutes per direction. My proposed simplified 3 line DART would mean a train every 5 minutes per Direction. If you had 3 lines crossing the loopline you'd be at 100% capacity from day 1 which is not desireable. the slightest delay would ruin the schedule for the day.

Someone going from Maynooth to Landowne would have to change twice which is unfortunate but most those changes would be very quick, 5 minutes wait and jump on and same again, you also wouldn't have to change platforms for the second change. That's the best we can really do without DART underground in place.

Unless we built a new station, a 'Connolly North' if you will that served as an interchange between Drogheda-Bray and Maynooth-Docklands.

the problem is the majority of Maynooth line commuters are not going to the Docklands area. You'd have huge numbers transferring at Whitworth onto already full Metro trains (at peak times). Better to run some through-services and terminate them at GCD (where I think they could probably build more platform space).

6 x Malahide-Bray
4 x Maynooth-GCD (or DL)
4 x Kildare-GCD

that's still only 14 tph over the bridge - extra Maynooth services could go to Docklands.

Sam Russell

loyatemu wrote: »

the problem is the majority of Maynooth line commuters are not going to the Docklands area. You'd have huge numbers transferring at Whitworth onto already full Metro trains (at peak times). Better to run some through-services and terminate them at GCD (where I think they could probably build more platform space).

6 x Malahide-Bray
4 x Maynooth-GCD (or DL)
4 x Kildare-GCD

that's still only 14 tph over the bridge - extra Maynooth services could go to Docklands.

You do realise GCD station is on a bridge.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

You do realise GCD station is on a bridge.

yeah, I was thinking they could use the space where the sidings are, or cantilever over the the dock, but looking at it now that may be tricky.

Nonetheless between GCD and the extra platform at DL I don't think it crazy to think you could turn back 8 trains an hour. A lot of the problems on the Loop Line are (I think) caused by having diesels stopping at 3/4 stations within a kilometre of each other. Electrification/bi-mode will hopefully make operations more efficient and reliable.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

the problem is the majority of Maynooth line commuters are not going to the Docklands area. You'd have huge numbers transferring at Whitworth onto already full Metro trains (at peak times). Better to run some through-services and terminate them at GCD (where I think they could probably build more platform space).

6 x Malahide-Bray
4 x Maynooth-GCD (or DL)
4 x Kildare-GCD

that's still only 14 tph over the bridge - extra Maynooth services could go to Docklands.

Passengers from Maynooth line have three options for transferes:

-Change at Whitworth onto DART from Hazelhatch to GCD.
-Change at Whitworth onto Metro to get anywhere between Swords and Sandyford
-Change at Docklands and get the luas red line(which will be extended to Ringsend Road and Poolbeg) or walk/cycle from there

Adding in more trains from Maynooth across the loopline doesn't do much. Also remember that whitworth road station will have to be an interchange station of biblical proportion, with top class bus and bike facilities.

xper

bk wrote: »

LXFlyer wrote: »

Neither you nor bk have put forward a reason why they can’t continue other than you don’t think it’s a good idea?

I'll give you another reason, in addition to what I said above. Wicklow to Bray is 30 minutes or less. Here is an idea. You could make Wicklow to Bray a shuttle service. A single train running back and forward every 30 minutes similar to Cobh in Cork.

Wicklow Town would go from 5 trains a day. To somewhere in the region of 30 trains a day!

It would also mean Greystones, where in fact the vast majority of passengers on this line board, would go from a train every 30 minutes, to one every 15 minutes. A nice improvement too.

I'm sure if you asked the people of Greystones or Wicklow would they be willing to put up with a 30 seconds change for that level of increase in service, they would jump at it.

Of course it wouldn't do much for those beyond Wicklow Town. But realistically you are getting too far for any sort of reasonable commute from Dublin anyway.

However such a service might allow the area around Greystones and south of it to be continue to be developed as a commuter region of Dublin.

Can’t be done without double tracking the the line between Bray and Greystones ( or Wicklow) which would be very expensive and disruptive.
To clarify, the scheduled journey time between Bray and Greystones is 12 mins so on a clock-faced timetable, the effective maximum frequency is every 30 mins per direction on that stretch.

While the northern line congestion is the bigger problem right now, the single track line south of Bray and the restricted capacity of the N/M11 is going to become a major headache within the lifetime of the 2040 plans and it appears to have been ignored.

Ireland trains

Greystones to Bray journey time is 9 min

bk

xper wrote: »

To clarify, the scheduled journey time between Bray and Greystones is 12 mins so on a clock-faced timetable, the effective maximum frequency is every 30 mins per direction on that stretch.

Seems to be 9 minutes per the schedule, so looks like one every 20 minutes per direction should be possible.

EDIT: Beaten to it

Ireland trains

Irish rail should extend the DART to Kildare instead of Hazelhatch and quadruple the track in that section because sallins, Naas,Newbridge and Kildare are all very big towns.
They need to get that order for the bi mode trains placed so that there on their way. Will some services (under current plans) operate from Heuston to Hazelhatch or will they all operate via ppt.
Also people who say that the journey times between Drogheda and Connolly will increase is wrong. For example Connolly to pearse journey times on the DART are 4-5min where diesel trains are 6-7 min.
That's a saving of 2 min per station so even with he extra stops it will still be faster. Also DART trains do not need toilets because of the short journey times but then New DARTs might have toilets we never know and I hope that they choose an New design.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

Seems to be 9 minutes per the schedule, so looks like one every 20 minutes per direction should be possible.

EDIT: Beaten to it

driver has to change ends in Greystones, every 20 mins would be ridiculously tight.