DART+ (DART Expansion)

Stephen15

loyatemu wrote: »

driver has to change ends in Greystones, every 20 mins would be ridiculously tight.

A solution to this would be a Driver A boards the other cab in Bray then the Driver A drives the train back to Bray and on to Howth/Malahide the saves Driver B the need to walk to the other end saving turnaround time. Driver B could then the board the opposite cab on the next Greystones bound train repeating the process.

Stephen15

Ireland trains wrote: »

Irish rail should extend the DART to Kildare instead of Hazelhatch and quadruple the track in that section because sallins, Naas,Newbridge and Kildare are all very big towns.
They need to get that order for the bi mode trains placed so that there on their way. Will some services (under current plans) operate from Heuston to Hazelhatch or will they all operate via ppt.
Also people who say that the journey times between Drogheda and Connolly will increase is wrong. For example Connolly to pearse journey times on the DART are 4-5min where diesel trains are 6-7 min.
That's a saving of 2 min per station so even with he extra stops it will still be faster. Also DART trains do not need toilets because of the short journey times but then New DARTs might have toilets we never know and I hope that they choose an New design.

Toilets on local commuter trains are completely unessecary IMO they take up much needed extra seating/standing room. Even the 2900 class don't really need them tbh if IE utilised their rolling stock properly and didn't have them ending up on the Sligo or Rosslare lines or even the very rare Enterprise service toilets would not be needed just for the Northern Line or Maynooth/M3 services. They take up quite a lot of room when extra seating would be more useful.

blanch152

Stephen15 wrote: »

A solution to this would be a Driver A boards the other cab in Bray then the Driver A drives the train back to Bray and on to Howth/Malahide the saves Driver B the need to walk to the other end saving turnaround time. Driver B could then the board the opposite cab on the next Greystones bound train repeating the process.

Adding hugely to cost of extra drivers and extra downtime.

cgcsb

Metrolink document released today seems to confirm that DART stations are planned for Heuston West At St John's Road/South Circular and at Cabra(Carnlough road. I would assume both stations are going to feature on a future Hazelhatch-Grand Canal Docks DART line.

Also massive interchange planned at whitworth Road, to be called 'Glasnevin'

Sierra Oscar

cgcsb wrote: »

Metrolink document released today seems to confirm that DART stations are planned for Heuston West At St John's Road/South Circular and at Cabra(Carnlough road. I would assume both stations are going to feature on a future Hazelhatch-Grand Canal Docks DART line.

Also massive interchange planned at whitworth Road, to be called 'Glasnevin'

Interesting, what document are those stations referred to in? I'm interested in knowing where exactly they are proposing to put those DART stations.

cgcsb

http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/metrolink-nta-tii-public-consultation-document.pdf

page 22

thomasj

Theres no way that can be right?

Send almost everything into docklands? Ppt services using the Midlands line?

bk

thomasj wrote: »

Theres no way that can be right?

Send almost everything into docklands? Ppt services using the Midlands line?

Whitworth Road becomes a massive interchange station between the two lines and the Metro. It will likely become one of the most important commuter stations in Dublin.

I posted a picture of the new station layout over on the MetroLink thread. Looks impressive.

I suspect that one of the two lines will terminate at Docklands and the other will go through Connolly and over the loopline bridge.

If your an a train headed to Dockloads and want to go to Connolly or further south, then you get off at Whitworth and change to another train heading south. You can also change their to Metro to head to the Airport or head towards O'Connell St - Tara St - Stephens Green - etc.

It all makes a great deal of sense.

Big Metro/Rail station planned at Tara St too and I suspect big upgrades at Docklands too.

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

Whitworth Road becomes a massive interchange station between the two lines and the Metro. It will likely become one of the most important commuter stations in Dublin.

I posted a picture of the new station layout over on the MetroLink thread. Looks impressive.

I suspect that one of the two lines will terminate at Docklands and the other will go through Connolly and over the loopline bridge.

If your an a train headed to Dockloads and want to go to Connolly or further south, then you get off at Whitworth and change to another train heading south. You can also change their to Metro to head to the Airport or head towards O'Connell St - Tara St - Stephens Green - etc.

It all makes a great deal of sense.

Big Metro/Rail station planned at Tara St too and I suspect big upgrades at Docklands too.

I hope the people that originally came up with that idea get the credit. It certainly wasn't a Government or Government agency idea.

Amirani

Whitworth Road station is genuinely a fantastic idea. Probably the best thing that could've happened to mainline rail outside of Dart Underground.

Carawaystick

Stephen15 wrote: »

Toilets on local commuter trains are completely unessecary IMO they take up much needed extra seating/standing room. Even the 2900 class don't really need them tbh if IE utilised their rolling stock properly and didn't have them ending up on the Sligo or Rosslare lines or even the very rare Enterprise service toilets would not be needed just for the Northern Line or Maynooth/M3 services. They take up quite a lot of room when extra seating would be more useful.

It's 90 minutes to Dundalk, Toilets necessary for that length of trip.

bk

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's 90 minutes to Dundalk, Toilets necessary for that length of trip.

At 90 minutes it isn't really a commuter service. Hour max would be considered maximum for regular commuting.

I'd expect hybrid trains operating to Drogheda to have toilets and overall more comfortably specced then pure commuter trains.

MayoSalmon

What the timeline for Western commuter electrification? What processes does this need to go through before they start the transformation and what kind of disruption will it have to the existing service? Is any of this information known yet?

bk

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What the timeline for Western commuter electrification? What processes does this need to go through before they start the transformation and what kind of disruption will it have to the existing service? Is any of this information known yet?

Nothing really known yet. Today was all about the Metro plans. Though they did give hints of the rail plans (whitworth road, etc.). I suspect we should hear something more in the next few months as they will need to start looking to order those hybrid trains, etc.

MayoSalmon

Amirani wrote: »

Whitworth Road station is genuinely a fantastic idea. Probably the best thing that could've happened to mainline rail outside of Dart Underground.

I suspect Dart Underground is dead and buried now for the foreseeable future because of it.

Will DARTs be able to run freely from Bray via Glasnevin out to both Maynooth and Sallins/Naas or wherever its supposed to terminate on that line?

MJohnston

I think Dart Underground has been dead for a while and this Whitworth/Glasnevin interchange is just a great way of trying to mitigate the results of that.

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

I think Dart Underground has been dead for a while and this Whitworth/Glasnevin interchange is just a great way of trying to mitigate the results of that.

I don't believe that FG were ever really convinced by DU. In 2003 while in opposition, they embraced a plan drafted by a certain organisation. This plan involved the PPT route and a station in Cabra and Glasnevin'Phisboro to interchange with the then emerging MN route. FG believed this would be a cheaper alternative to DU. But the plan was never presented as an alternative to DU by those who drafted it. It was suggested on the basis of maximizing the existing rail infrastructure. Aspects of it were also included in the O'Reilly report. It was feasible 15 years ago, but the Government of the day had no interest. Such a pity that in 2018 that its being used as an excuse not to build a bigger project.

So it appears that FG are running with this plan and a preference to routing Metro along a previously suggested alignment.We can debate all day about whether the money for both DU and Metro is there or which one is of greater importance. For me, the bottom line is FG have absolutely no interest in building DU either way.

cgcsb

If we have 10 minute DARTs Hazelhatch-GCD, Balbriggan-Greystones, Maynooth-Docklands and a Howth Shuttle that's probably the best we can have without DARTu in place. We'll have to wait and see how that can be accomplished but considering the size of the budget, a third rail between Connolly and Drogheda may be an option, making Whitworh road the Intercity terminus for a more frequent Sligo service and finishing the Kildare Route project, using the hybrid trains to extend every third DART to the outer commuter belt, Dundalk, Longford, Portlaoise/Athlone and Gorey would make it all very simplified. Perhaps a Bray terminus for Rosslare.

I think the above is about the max we could do without DARTu. If and when DARTu happens we can start talking spurs into unserved areas.

D.L.R.

They'll have to account for Dart U when designing the SSG Metro station. Seems they've sidestepped that issue for now, but that's no great surprise with DU under review.

According to the timeline, detailed design for Metro is max 18 months away. They'll have to show their hand on DU before then.

(I'm not calling it Metrolink btw, yuck)

bk

D.L.R. wrote: »

They'll have to account for Dart U when designing the SSG Metro station. Seems they've sidestepped that issue for now, but that's no great surprise with DU under review.

According to the timeline, detailed design for Metro is max 18 months away. They'll have to show their hand on DU before then.

(I'm not calling it Metrolink btw, yuck)

I don't think we will learn much about DU from the SSG plans. The SSG station plans are already detailed on the MetroLink site and it has no mention of DU. It is just a simple station box on SSG East. The whole fully integrated Metro/DU station in SSG is clearly been done away with.

When DU comes back, I'd just expect another simple station box at SSG North or in the park itself. Maybe a bit of walk way/tunnel between the two stations, but nothing as fancy as the original SSG plans.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

If we have 10 minute DARTs Hazelhatch-GCD, Balbriggan-Greystones, Maynooth-Docklands and a Howth Shuttle that's probably the best we can have without DARTu in place. We'll have to wait and see how that can be accomplished but considering the size of the budget, a third rail between Connolly and Drogheda may be an option, making Whitworh road the Intercity terminus for a more frequent Sligo service and finishing the Kildare Route project, using the hybrid trains to extend every third DART to the outer commuter belt, Dundalk, Longford, Portlaoise/Athlone and Gorey would make it all very simplified. Perhaps a Bray terminus for Rosslare.

I think the above is about the max we could do without DARTu. If and when DARTu happens we can start talking spurs into unserved areas.

I agree with almost everything above. But FYI I don't think there will be space for Sligo trains to terminate at Whitworth Road, it looks to be more like a commuter station like Tara St. But they could certainly stop at Whitworth road for interchange and on to terminate at Connolly or Docklands.

CatInABox

bk wrote: »

I don't think we will learn much about DU from the SSG plans. The SSG station plans are already detailed on the MetroLink site and it has no mention of DU. It is just a simple station box on SSG East. The whole fully integrated Metro/DU station in SSG is clearly been done away with.

When DU comes back, I'd just expect another simple station box at SSG North or in the park itself. Maybe a bit of walk way/tunnel between the two stations, but nothing as fancy as the original SSG plans.

Yeah, I'd agree with this, almost certainly along the north of the green, and no fancy station. It's pretty clear that all of the projects being announced and put forward are putting ease of construction over almost all other aspects. That should keep cost overruns to a minimum.

The only part that's truly unusual on the Metrolink is Whitworth station, and that's just an interchange over to the commuter lines.

bk

CatInABox wrote: »

The only part that's truly unusual on the Metrolink is Whitworth station, and that's just an interchange over to the commuter lines.

Tara St looks interesting too. But yes, reading the plans, it is very clear at every turn they are looking for the cheaper option.

And I think that is ok, it is a trade off obviously, but I think they are boxing smart and overall getting good value for money. Keeping it cheaper will I think make it more likely to get done.

The old planned stations at SSG and O'Connell Bridge, while having some advantages were really crazy large, complicated things.

murphaph

I think DU is most likely dead for decades now. It will be politically difficult to agitate for DU until after metro is extended to the southwest of the city as the Kildare line will see trains running much more frequently via Whitworth Road and a simple extension of metro to Donabate can massively relieve the Northern Line of passengers. Metro with 2 min headways will have massive capacity for this.

thomasj

CatInABox wrote:

The only part that's truly unusual on the Metrolink is Whitworth station, and that's just an interchange over to the commuter lines.

I'm baffled myself , because based on reading the reports I can't find any indication that they're planning on separating the Kildare and Maynooth likes at glasnevin

bk

thomasj wrote: »

I'm baffled myself , because based on reading the reports I can't find any indication that they're planning on separating the Kildare and Maynooth likes at glasnevin

Separating? Sorry, maybe I misunderstand.

The Maynooth and Kildare lines (PPT from Hueston) are already separate. But they run about a few meters from one another at Whitworth Road, more or less parallel.

The MetroLink document doesn't detail these lines too much, since they are a separate project. The only hint is the plans for the station at Whitworth road, which show an integrated Irish Rail/MetroLink station with a central platform and two side platforms between the liens, plus pedestrian bridges.

I would suspect we will get a later launch of the DART expansion details further down the line.

thomasj

Sorry I mean they share the same line by drumcondra.

Based on the report they seem to indicate that the reasoning for whitworth seems to be that drumcondra wouldn't be a suitable interchange station because of its elevation etc.

I have my doubts whether the platforms on the midland line side would be for anything more than m3 parkway services.

Grandeeod

thomasj wrote: »

Sorry I mean they share the same line by drumcondra.

Based on the report they seem to indicate that the reasoning for whitworth seems to be that drumcondra wouldn't be a suitable interchange station because of its elevation etc.

I have my doubts whether the platforms on the midland line side would be for anything more than m3 parkway services.

I understand what you are talking about.

It would appear that this new station will service trains running from Maynooth/PPT/M3 with services running through Connolly and into Docklands. Just like things are now except connected to Metro. A decent idea and needed, but no replacement for the original DU.

thomasj

Grandeeod wrote:

It would appear that this new station will service trains running from Maynooth/PPT/M3 with services running through Connolly and into Docklands. Just like things are now except connected to Metro. A decent idea and needed, but no replacement for the original DU.

Grandeeod wrote:

It would appear that this new station will service trains running from Maynooth/PPT/M3 with services running through Connolly and into Docklands. Just like things are now except connected to Metro. A decent idea and needed, but no replacement for the original DU.

Grandeeod wrote:

I understand what you are talking about.

Exactly although that map is confusing enough showing Kildare services going via the midland line and Maynooth line using drumcondra

Grandeeod

thomasj wrote: »

Exactly although that map is confusing enough showing Kildare services going via the midland line and Maynooth line using drumcondra

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that it all goes back to the original Platform 11 plan to run Kildare trains to Spencer Dock/Docklands. Obviously this predates GCD as things stand now. While the original P11 plan was solid in 2003, its alarming that the current map suggests the same thing happening now. As I've already said, it looks like some FG hacks have dug up a decent plan from 15 years ago and are trying to implant it on the current Metro idea. It doesn't bode well for any credibility in relation to building a Metro.