DART+ (DART Expansion)

MJohnston

Where are people getting the idea it's DART to Drogheda? From what I read it was just that they were going to run the diesel-electric hybrids from there, which doesn't imply DART.

KOR101

MJohnston wrote: »

Where are people getting the idea it's DART to Drogheda? From what I read it was just that they were going to run the diesel-electric hybrids from there, which doesn't imply DART.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-36638480.html

roadmaster

MJohnston wrote: »

Where are people getting the idea it's DART to Drogheda? From what I read it was just that they were going to run the diesel-electric hybrids from there, which doesn't imply DART.

It's says on NDP.ie they plan to provide a high frequency electrified service from Dublin to Drogheda

lucernarian

Considering Drogheda has multiple through platforms and a maintenance depot, I think it's a good option for a terminus. There's pros and cons but then if the hybrid diesel/electrics can do 90 MPH then it wouldn't impact much om the enterprise until the more frequent stops later on

bk

Yes, they could electrify as far as Drogheda, but that doesn't have to mean DART. Electric trains come in all types, from mass transit style DARTS to intercity High Speed Rail.

Electric trains are generally faster then Diesel trains (of the same type) as they accelerate/decelerate faster and are lighter as they don't have to carry Diesel engines and fuel.

What slows DART down is not that it is electric, it is that it is a commuter type service, with frequent, close stops. It is stopping and boarding passengers that slow it down so much overall.

Zebra3

I think stopping and allowing passengers to board slows down any service....

prinzeugen

Electrification to Drogheda would be very expensive at 1500v DC. Unless they use dual voltage units (1500v DC/25kv AC) with a change over of voltages at Malahide or bi modes (1500v DC/diesel) but these would be sluggish.

sdanseo

prinzeugen wrote: »

Electrification to Drogheda would be very expensive at 1500v DC. Unless they use dual voltage units (1500v DC/25kv AC) with a change over of voltages at Malahide or bi modes (1500v DC/diesel) but these would be sluggish.

What causes 1500V to be so expensive to install?

Some of the figures I've seen being thrown around - like €2bn for what is essentially some new trains and maybe 100km of catenary - is mad mad money.

roadmaster

Weather its Hybrid or overhead cables at the end of the day these trains will be painted green and called DART and the that's what the general public will see them as

prinzeugen

sdanseo wrote: »

What causes 1500V to be so expensive to install?

Some of the figures I've seen being thrown around - like €2bn for what is essentially some new trains and maybe 100km of catenary - is mad mad money.

You need a feeder station every 7 miles or so with 1500 DC compared to every 30 miles with 25kv AC. If there is no ESB lines near to the site of a feeder then you need big oil cooled cables (like you see on the underground in London) to run alongside the track.

Considering how rural parts of the line to Drogheda are, I would think that they would need new ESB lines (and the planning problems) or heavy feeder cables trackside if they used DC.

Also DC carries a stupid amount of amps so the overhead lines need to be heavier which is loads more copper.

With AC, yes you need to raise bridges etc to get clearance which costs, but it is cheaper in the long term. Lighter wires = less masts, low amps = less copper, higher voltage = less transformers/feeder stations.

Railway technology has moved on so it is possible to have dual voltage trains. Some of the DB units use 15kv 60hz AC in Germany, 1500v DC in Belgium and 25kv 50hz AC in France, all in one journey.

alias no.9

MaccaTacca wrote: »

Of course there are some people living in West-Dublin taking as long if not longer than people who live in bray to get into the city center.

Ongar, Clonee, Lucan etc are about 15-20km from the city center, the same as Bray and parts of Kildare. An imaginary county line does not change the fact that many of these commuter towns are now parts of the continuous built up area of Dublin.

The distance from the City center to Bray is significantly further than from Lucan to City Center, 21km v's 14km.

I live in Lucan, I work in Bray, if I pick up a taxi on the south quays, it's typically €20 home, I do live on the city side of Lucan.

From what my colleagues tell me, a taxi from city center to Bray rarely costs less than €40, often more.

SeanW

It should be understood also that the Southern Dart has to deal with specific issues between Bun Laoghare and Killiney that add significant time to Bray-CC, lots of sharp curves, that dodgy slab track around Glengageary ... None of that would apply on the DART to Drogheda.

lucernarian

prinzeugen wrote: »

You need a feeder station every 7 miles or so with 1500 V DC

Considering how rural parts of the line to Drogheda are, I would think that they would need new ESB lines (and the planning problems) or heavy feeder cables trackside if they used DC.

No offense and I agree with the rest but this? We're talking east Co. Meath and north Co. Dublin, not Irkutsk. Drogheda and Laytown are within that distance with a ready 38kV network nearby, Balbriggan and Skerries are of course within that distance from each other. The amount of ESB work reqd would be minimal even with supplies going past 2 MVA rating.

murphaph

Long term we'd be better off biting the bullet and going with 25kVac from now on, buying dual mode vehicles and gradually eliminating the existing DC network. It's still very small in reality.

SeanW

Not necessarily, DC has the advantage that it's simpler and the equipment needed on board the trains is less, so DC enabling lighter trains is actually better for short haul services especially with frequent stops. You could electrify Dublin to Drogheda and Hazelhatch with 1500VDC and beyond to Belfast and Cork with 25kV 50hz AC.

If 3rd rail were allowed in Irish law we could even do what Metro North Railroads' New Haven Line does just outside New York City and physically separate the DC and AC portions of an electrified mainline by having 3rd rail provide the DC @700V (as is done from Pelham, NY to Grand Central Terminal) and the overhead lines providing AC @12.5kV 60hz from Pelham to New Haven Connecticut and the electrified branch to New Canaan. Since 1908 when this system was first put in service, the New Haven Railroad, Penn Central and now Metro North Railroad in succession have acquired and used dual-electric railcars and locomotives, most recently the M-8 railcar, do run the entire length of the line from Grand Central to New Haven.

Converting and extending the DART to 3rd rail for DC sections could even avoid the problems regarding tunnels and low over-bridges and allow, for example, electric rail service in the Phoenix Park Tunnel, without diesel or batteries. It would also make it physically impossible to apply the wrong current to the wrong transformer on the train, because the pantograph would never collect DC overhead and the contact shoe would never pick up AC from the 3rd rail.

prinzeugen

lucernarian wrote: »

No offense and I agree with the rest but this? We're talking east Co. Meath and north Co. Dublin, not Irkutsk. Drogheda and Laytown are within that distance with a ready 38kV network nearby, Balbriggan and Skerries are of course within that distance from each other. The amount of ESB work reqd would be minimal even with supplies going past 2 MVA rating.

You would need a 38kv supply to the railway every 7 or so miles. Unless the 38kv line runs parallel to the railway, then you need extra ESB lines/underground cables.

You could have supplies 14 miles apart but that would require 7 miles of oil cooled cable to supply the feeder.

Another complication is that 2 separate supplies are usually used so if one goes out, it switches to the other.

Sierra Oscar

This is interesting.

New Dart plan backs away from underground route

Documents seen by this newspaper show the NTA now wants to extend a Dart service from Heuston Station through the Phoenix Park Tunnel to new stops in Cabra, Glasnevin and finally the Docklands.

LeinsterDub

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is interesting.

New Dart plan backs away from underground route

Aside from the fact it completely boycotts the southside

Jesus the indo is such a rag it's hardly a boycott.

According to the documents, the NTA believes it should "prioritise" investment in non-tunnel elements as "this will enable additional services to be put in place much earlier". The plan is to rely heavily on existing infrastructure rather than create new routes, meaning a large part of the cost will be new trains.

As I've been saying for years . This plan appears to be max out the current infrastructure and then they will have no choice to build the tunnel and also it will be cheaper as associated upgrade costs and trains will already be purchased.

Stephen15

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is interesting.

New Dart plan backs away from underground route

DART to Drogheda every 5 minutes

roadmaster

If they where to put a stop in Cabra i cant see to many places to put one apart from the strip land between Fassuagh Ave and Cabra Road

marno21

Stephen15 wrote: »

DART to Drogheda every 5 minutes

The work of Fergus O'Dowd no doubt

Sierra Oscar

roadmaster wrote: »

If they where to put a stop in Cabra i cant see to many places to put one apart from the strip land between Fassuagh Ave and Cabra Road

I'd imagine it would be located around here.

Planning permission has been granted for a big apartment block complex for the disused land between Carnlough Road and the tracks so I'm not sure how much space will be left once that goes up.

It would be a 10 minute walk from the station to the Luas stop.

They could put it in this area too.

roadmaster

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I'd imagine it would be located around here.

Planning permission has been granted for a big apartment block complex for the disused land between Carnlough Road and the tracks so I'm not sure how much space will be left once that goes up.

It would be a 10 minute walk from the station to the Luas stop.

They could put it in this area too.

Yeah id say one or the other, would Irish rail take in to account common since like where higher density buildings will be located

riddlinrussell

roadmaster wrote: »

Yeah id say one or the other, would Irish rail take in to account common since like where higher density buildings will be located

I imagine it would be impractical to put a station here? would provide an opportunity to create a big interchange station between luas, both lines and the greenway for cycling commuters, although its definitely out of the way for other purposes and probably not a suitable location for it from an engineering aspect.

LXFlyer

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I imagine it would be impractical to put a station here? would provide an opportunity to create a big interchange station between luas, both lines and the greenway for cycling commuters, although its definitely out of the way for other purposes and probably not a suitable location for it from an engineering aspect.

Pretty much impossible - there are two tunnels there (not bridges) and curves either side.

bk

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I imagine it would be impractical to put a station here? would provide an opportunity to create a big interchange station between luas, both lines and the greenway for cycling commuters, although its definitely out of the way for other purposes and probably not a suitable location for it from an engineering aspect.

I'd say this option might be more likely:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.363421,-6.273814,249a,35y,44.92t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

See that field in the top left corner, plenty of space for a station box there and right next to both tracks. It would be closer alignment with the stations before and after it.

I'm thinking you would have the Irish Rail train station at Des Kellys. Entrance to the station where Des Kelly currently is and the platforms behind it. You then have an order pass over to the Metro station underground from there.

Sierra Oscar

bk wrote: »

I'd say this option might be more likely:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.363421,-6.273814,249a,35y,44.92t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

See that field in the top left corner, plenty of space for a station box there and right next to both tracks. It would be closer alignment with the stations before and after it.

I'm thinking you would have the Irish Rail train station at Des Kellys. Entrance to the station where Des Kelly currently is and the platforms behind it. You then have an order pass over to the Metro station underground from there.

That would seem to fit in with the article which suggests there will be a Glasnevin station in or around the Whitworth Road / Cross Guns Bridge area.

ciaran75

quick question

If they upgrade maynooth, drogeda, celbridge lines to DART with high frequency service is everything still planned to be routed through Connolly, how is that possible with loop line bridge and current constraints. I thought that was the reason they planned DU

cgcsb

How will all these high frequency services work though?
Presumably all Maynooth and M3 Parkway DARTs will have to terminate at Docklands with good interchange opportunities with luas and metro and INTEGRATED TICKETING (which was promised and not delivered with the introduction of leap).
Howth DARTs would have to become high frequency shuttle

We'll effectively have 3 DART lines and a short DART shuttle in Howth.

Maynooth/M3-Docklands
Hazelhatch-Grand Canal Dock (new stations at Cabra, Glasnevin and west of Heuston)
Drogheda-Greystones

Assuming you take out all the level crossings, put in a fourth track to Heuston and have sufficient rolling stock with hybrid trains for the PPT section it should be doable and indeed should have been done 4 or 5 decades ago. How you're going to get intercity trains into the mix is anyone's guess. Rosslare services will probably be gone altogether at that stage. Sligo services will have a real hoot crawling along the Maynooth line behind DARTs this should be made up by introducing time savings further out on the route, perhaps by double tracking some sections. If Dublin-Belfast is going to be high-speed and an hourly service or greater we'll need to get creative but with Brexit and all there might not be Dublin-Belfast trains anyway.

Telchak

cgcsb wrote: »

How will all these high frequency services work though?
Presumably all Maynooth and M3 Parkway DARTs will have to terminate at Docklands with good interchange opportunities with luas and metro and INTEGRATED TICKETING (which was promised and not delivered with the introduction of leap).
Howth DARTs would have to become high frequency shuttle

I'd say more likely it'll be Pace & Cellbridge trains terminating in Docklands. With the IFSC as a destination, and transfer options at Cross Guns to GCD bound DARTs from Maynooth and Metro Metro Link, it would be quite an attractive option from the west.

Not quite the network effect of DART Underground, by but a good alternative considering there seems to be no political will for it.