Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781

Bridge93 · 26-02-2018 12:32am

Rob Kearney managing to derail two threads at the same time. Fairplay to him, that takes some doing.
Silly me thinking this all might be behind us when warnings were given out in the autumn and pre-6N regarding the endless, cyclical stuff written on the subject.

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-02-2018 12:52am

Bridge93 wrote: »

Rob Kearney managing to derail two threads at the same time. Fairplay to him, that takes some doing.
Silly me thinking this all might be behind us when warnings were given out in the autumn and pre-6N regarding the endless, cyclical stuff written on the subject.

Still has the feel of Laurel movie, or , a Hardy movie, when one of them branches out to make his own stuff. But you are left with the nagging feeling that something just isnt quite right when the other half of the familiar double act is missing....

leakyboots · 26-02-2018 3:15am

CJ is in interesting territory on here - when Stander first started internationally the line on here was "he's not fit enough for international rugby for 80 mins" cos he was subbed a couple of times in his early caps... now it's "he doesn't pass enough"... even though he generally passes as much as any other member of the backrow.

Before VdF went off injured CJ had more passes than him and Leavy passed the same amount as him the other day (please don't misinterpret that as Leavy playing poor, he was superb, but at the same you expect your 7 to link a bit more traditionally than your 8).

Now the line is "he's a marked man and doesn't make the yardage he used to" when, generally game after game, he carries the most and makes the most yardage of any forward. Like, if you're to go by pure statistics Porter carried 9 times and only made 1 yard.

I don't think Porter carried poorly nor had a poor game, nor do I think CJ is in poor form at all, I think he's a machine who keeps going non stop for hard yards for 80 mins and beyond. If it was that easy to make constant yardage in the tight the whole pack would have similar stats. James Ryan seems to be another to be naturally able to get that extra yard or two, Chris Farrell did it all day in the backs.

I'm a big Conan fan, he was one of very few to show up when we stuffed Leinster last season at Xmas but the idea of him replacing CJ or POM is still a bit of the way off, he's got to earn his stripes yet.

On a completely different note, I can't believe Cian Healy only has 4 tries in 76 caps, just seems wrong!

Burkie1203 · 26-02-2018 8:29am

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/967882649535680512

Jack Kanoff · 26-02-2018 8:33am

That was something I wasn't aware of... Gatland is a smart cookie alright

Try_harder · 26-02-2018 9:12am

Imagine we could win the 6 Nations in our next match!

prawnsambo · 26-02-2018 9:32am

leakyboots wrote: »

CJ is in interesting territory on here - when Stander first started internationally the line on here was "he's not fit enough for international rugby for 80 mins" cos he was subbed a couple of times in his early caps... now it's "he doesn't pass enough"... even though he generally passes as much as any other member of the backrow.

Before VdF went off injured CJ had more passes than him and Leavy passed the same amount as him the other day (please don't misinterpret that as Leavy playing poor, he was superb, but at the same you expect your 7 to link a bit more traditionally than your 8).

Now the line is "he's a marked man and doesn't make the yardage he used to" when, generally game after game, he carries the most and makes the most yardage of any forward. Like, if you're to go by pure statistics Porter carried 9 times and only made 1 yard.

I don't think Porter carried poorly nor had a poor game, nor do I think CJ is in poor form at all, I think he's a machine who keeps going non stop for hard yards for 80 mins and beyond. If it was that easy to make constant yardage in the tight the whole pack would have similar stats. James Ryan seems to be another to be naturally able to get that extra yard or two, Chris Farrell did it all day in the backs.

I'm a big Conan fan, he was one of very few to show up when we stuffed Leinster last season at Xmas but the idea of him replacing CJ or POM is still a bit of the way off, he's got to earn his stripes yet.

On a completely different note, I can't believe Cian Healy only has 4 tries in 76 caps, just seems wrong!

I'm not sure CJ is being singled out here. Generally I think our forwards should be passing more. POM had the most on Saturday with six, so that left ten passes between the other seven. The reason I brought it up at all, is that I noticed POM passing just before contact a couple of times and we got good yards from it.

Buer · 26-02-2018 9:41am

leakyboots wrote: »

CJ is in interesting territory on here - when Stander first started internationally the line on here was "he's not fit enough for international rugby for 80 mins" cos he was subbed a couple of times in his early caps..

He wasn't fit enough. He wasn't fit enough for HEC rugby for Munster initially either and was omitted from the HEC squad in his first season whilst he improved. Even in his second season, he was almost exclusively a bench player in Europe before making huge strides the next year.

In terms of fitness, he is unrecognisable as a player from the guy who arrived in Ireland.

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 9:59am

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

Stheno · 26-02-2018 10:00am

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

I'm the same tbh

Buer · 26-02-2018 10:04am

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

It's a big bloody cherry. I'll be thrilled if we win the title but the GS is something a bit special. Nobody looks upon 2014 and 2015 in the same way we look upon 2009.

irishbucsfan · 26-02-2018 10:04am

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

I'm the opposite. I don't nearly care as much about the Championship. Grand Slams are what gets remembered. Winning the Championship in a year where two teams win 4 games feels similar to a hard-fought LBP to me.

26-02-2018 10:08am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure CJ is being singled out here. Generally I think our forwards should be passing more. POM had the most on Saturday with six, so that left ten passes between the other seven. The reason I brought it up at all, is that I noticed POM passing just before contact a couple of times and we got good yards from it.

Yes, it's something you see NZ do all the time. A forward will lay it off to the guy next to him who is then running at a gap or a shoulder instead of just taking straight contact.

It often gets highlighted how much we pass, I think we pass more than any other team in the tournament, but it's really just the halfbacks and of those even it's really just Murray.

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 10:28am

Buer wrote: »

It's a big bloody cherry. I'll be thrilled if we win the title but the GS is something a bit special. Nobody looks upon 2014 and 2015 in the same way we look upon 2009.

2009 had more than just a GS win though. I'd imagine for almost all of us it was the first title in our lifetimes. We also went to Cardiff needing to win. A loss there and England would have pipped us at the post on PD. So the drama, the first title in our lifetimes and the GS all played into it. Even the previous few years of near misses and build up (triple crowns and 2007s heartache) all added to it.

The last 2 wins weren't as special because we weren't waiting for as long and Irish teams had started to get used to winning silverware too.

Don't get me wrong, the GS is a pretty big cherry. You're right there. But I just won't be massively disappointed if we didn't win it, so long as we won the title.

Bridge93 · 26-02-2018 10:46am

Get the feeling the GS will be harder to do than if it was a straight shoot out with England. In that scenario theyd be feeling all the nerves and anticipation we would be.
As it is now they'll be hitting their heads off walls to make up for that Scotland game and will be hellbent on retribution for Dublin last year

.ak · 26-02-2018 10:52am

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

I’m the same. Maybe it’s because I’m a bit younger (ahem) than some here but the GS is a novelty for me. Bit of bragging rights is all. Winning the championship is more important to me. The back-to-back championships mean more to me than the 09 GS.

I’d love another GS obviously but if we win the title in Dublin but lose in London I won’t be awfully bothered.

If you go on to win the Heineken having been unbeaten in all 9 games is sweet and all, but the trophy is sweeter.

Shefwedfan · 26-02-2018 10:54am

Jamie Heaslip just retired

Time will get us all, but it's cornered me earlier than I hoped.

Every professional sportsperson always hopes to be able leave their chosen sport on their terms but too often that’s not the case.

I have had to take on board the medical advice that I have been given and after talking to Sheena and my family I have taken the difficult decision to retire with immediate effect from playing rugby in order to ensure my future well being.

I’m very proud to finish my career as a one club man having played amongst some of the best in the game, who are all like a family of brothers to me.

My goal when I started my professional career 14 years ago was to leave the the jerseys that I wore in a better place and I hope I have done that.

Thank you to the IRFU, Leinster Rugby, all the coaches, medical staff,back room staff, sponsors, media, supporters and most importantly my wife, family , friends and fellow players for helping me to make my dreams come true.

I’ve had the time of my life on and off the rugby pitch but now its time for the next chapter.

Jamie

Bridge93 · 26-02-2018 11:04am

Irelands greatest ever number 8? Sad way for it all to end given how innocuous it seemed and his reputation as iron man. But the recovery at that age and for that length of time is not worth the physical or mental anguish. He's done it all and has nothing to prove

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 11:12am

Agh, gutted for the guy. But if there's anyone well set up for life after rugby its him. Hope he does as well out of rugby as he did in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTS85UE1ask

awec · 26-02-2018 11:23am

.ak wrote: »

I’m the same. Maybe it’s because I’m a bit younger (ahem) than some here but the GS is a novelty for me. Bit of bragging rights is all. Winning the championship is more important to me. The back-to-back championships mean more to me than the 09 GS.

I’d love another GS obviously but if we win the title in Dublin but lose in London I won’t be awfully bothered.

If you go on to win the Heineken having been unbeaten in all 9 games is sweet and all, but the trophy is sweeter.

We can’t really win the title in Dublin, at least not really in front of our support. Were the first game next round so will be waiting on other results.

As for a grand slam, it’s massive compared to another championship for me. Another championship is great and all but isn’t going to overly excite me if it’s another 4 win title and I think if this current team doesn’t win a GS it will have underachieved.

Time for this Ireland side to go to the next level and stick 5 wins back to back.

The Heineken cup has no concept of a grand slam so not really comparable.

Also a GS is the one realistic achievement that Schmidt has yet to deliver. Nobody expects him to win a World Cup.

Podge_irl · 26-02-2018 11:27am

A 5 point win in Dublin all but guarantees it though - England would require a bonus point win over France and us in that scenario.

Jack Kanoff · 26-02-2018 11:27am

Ah that's very sad news indeed.
The 2 greatest 8's I've seen live are Axel and Jamie...and I would have Jamie as my No.1
Sad day for the guy personally and the game in general.... hope that he stays in the game and gets into coaching at some level.

prawnsambo · 26-02-2018 11:35am

Jack Kanoff wrote: »

Ah that's very sad news indeed.
The 2 greatest 8's I've seen live are Axel and Jamie...and I would have Jamie as my No.1
Sad day for the guy personally and the game in general.... hope that he stays in the game and gets into coaching at some level.

I somehow doubt it given the outside interests he has now. Afaik, he also has a biomedical engineering degree.

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 11:35am

awec wrote: »

Another championship is great and all but isn’t going to overly excite me if it’s another 4 win title

I don't get this. Winning a major title isn't going to excite you? The 6Ns is only the second biggest title that any rugby team in this country could possibly win. And the highest they could conceivably win if you don't expect us to win a RWC. Winning the highest title you'd expect to win and not being excited about it just seems a bit weird to me.

awec · 26-02-2018 11:38am

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't get this. Winning a major title isn't going to excite you? The 6Ns is only the second biggest title that any rugby team in this country could possibly win. And the highest they could conceivably win if you don't expect us to win a RWC. Winning the highest title you'd expect to win and not being excited about it just seems a bit weird to me.

Given the team we have our aim should be a grand slam.

The highest title we can realistically expect to win is a grand slam.

I’m not yet ready to settle for the second best thing.

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2018 11:40am

Something something ...Triple Crown...something something....

irishbucsfan · 26-02-2018 11:41am

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't get this. Winning a major title isn't going to excite you? The 6Ns is only the second biggest title that any rugby team in this country could possibly win. And the highest they could conceivably win if you don't expect us to win a RWC. Winning the highest title you'd expect to win and not being excited about it just seems a bit weird to me.

For me, the Grand Slam is the second biggest title that any rugby team in this country could possibly win.

And a 4 win championship will (in a scenario where we beat Scotland) mean we won by losing in Twickenham. It wouldn't be at all as thrilling to me.

errlloyd · 26-02-2018 11:42am

I used to think winning anything in the even years was impossible. At 77 minutes in Paris I'd have bitten your hand off to just win that match. I've see Ireland win the same amount of grand slams as my father has, he's 60.

England have not played well against Scotland or Wales. They're there to be taken, but we needed 83 minutes to beat France, and 81 to actually put away Wales. If we win anything this year I'll be over the moon.

awec · 26-02-2018 11:45am

We all got a thrill out of beating England last year and denying them one. To then say we aren’t that bothered about winning it ourselves seems a bit small time.

I dunno, to start writing off a GS already seems like we’re back to downplaying expectations again.

Picking up a championship after losing to England would be pretty bittersweet. Losing to Scotland and beating England would absolutely suck.

Zzippy · 26-02-2018 11:48am

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't get this. Winning a major title isn't going to excite you? The 6Ns is only the second biggest title that any rugby team in this country could possibly win. And the highest they could conceivably win if you don't expect us to win a RWC. Winning the highest title you'd expect to win and not being excited about it just seems a bit weird to me.

I get both sides of the argument, but assuming we beat Scotland (big assumption, I know) the timing will probably mean we either win the GS in Twickenham, or end the 6N with a defeat. Which would make the GS much more memorable than winning the 6N with 4 wins. It's hard to celebrate a championship on an anti-climax and won't feel as exciting.

bilston · 26-02-2018 11:49am

molloyjh wrote: »

awec wrote: »

Another championship is great and all but isn’t going to overly excite me if it’s another 4 win title

I don't get this. Winning a major title isn't going to excite you? The 6Ns is only the second biggest title that any rugby team in this country could possibly win. And the highest they could conceivably win if you don't expect us to win a RWC. Winning the highest title you'd expect to win and not being excited about it just seems a bit weird to me.

I'll be very excited if we win the title. That said at this juncture I'd be very surprised if we don't win the title.

That said winning a GS something resonates through history. It takes the achievement to a new level.

Bridge93 · 26-02-2018 11:51am

I'd be really excited to win the championship. I'd be more excited to win the GS. We've come so close and been robbed of both a number of times through the noughties that a bit of payback is in order

3 championships and a GS in 10 years would be amazing.
2 championships and 2 GS was unthinkable 10 years ago

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2018 11:51am

awec wrote: »

We all got a thrill out of beating England last year and denying them one. To then say we aren’t that bothered about winning it ourselves seems a bit small time.

I dunno, to start writing off a GS already seems like we’re back to downplaying expectations again.

Picking up a championship after losing to England would be pretty bittersweet. Losing to Scotland and beating England would absolutely suck.

If we were playing Scotland in Murrayfield we could be in serious trouble but we should beat them in Dublin. And if the same England turns up in Twickenham as turned up in Murrayfield then we have a good chance. Unfortunately, wounded pride is a great motivator. I don't think we'll beat England.

Jack Kanoff · 26-02-2018 11:55am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I somehow doubt it given the outside interests he has now. Afaik, he also has a biomedical engineering degree.

I would tend to agree that the chances are slim, but I hope maybe at grassroots or schools level he would lend his knowledge...would be great for 15-18yo youngsters to have Heaslip training you.... maybe pie in the sky from me, we shall see what happens.

irishbucsfan · 26-02-2018 11:59am

Jack Kanoff wrote: »

I would tend to agree that the chances are slim, but I hope maybe at grassroots or schools level he would lend his knowledge...would be great for 15-18yo youngsters to have Heaslip training you.... maybe pie in the sky from me, we shall see what happens.

He may well end up helping out at Naas, has done before, but I'd say he'll look to make a clean break from the professional game.

Buer · 26-02-2018 12:12pm

bilston wrote: »

I'll be very excited if we win the title. That said at this juncture I'd be very surprised if we don't win the title.

If we don't win the title from this position, it will be a massive failure. We are 5 points ahead and 24 points to the good in terms of points difference.

Even if ourselves and England get identical results (us at home to Scotland and England playing in Paris), that will mean that England will need to beat us by more than 12 points with a try BP in Twickenham.

Realistically, I think we're in with a good chance of winning the title on the 4th weekend. I hope that doesn't take some of the urgency and intensity out of the team come the closing game.

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 12:13pm

awec wrote: »

I dunno, to start writing off a GS already seems like we’re back to downplaying expectations again.

Who has written off the GS? All I said was that I wouldn't be devastated if we didn't win it.

I suppose where I'm coming from is that all the talk now is a GS. We've an away game against the 2nd best team in the world though. Setting a GS as an expectation from here is ambitious. That's a good thing. Expecting that to become a reality and not being happy with anything else seems to be a bit entitled to me, and so is a bad thing.

Winning 3 6Ns in 5 years is a bloody good achievement. In the pro era it's only been done 4 times. France have done it three times and England have done it once. The last time it was done was France from 2006-2010 and they dominated the noughties with 5 titles in 10 years. If we win this year we'll have won 4 in 10 years. Compared to 3 English, 2 Welsh and 1 French title that's good going too.

There's plenty to be happy about just winning the Championship.

26-02-2018 12:14pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I somehow doubt it given the outside interests he has now. Afaik, he also has a biomedical engineering degree.

He's said in the past he has no interest in coaching.

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 12:16pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

I'd be really excited to win the championship. I'd be more excited to win the GS. We've come so close and been robbed of both a number of times through the noughties that a bit of payback is in order

3 championships and a GS in 10 years would be amazing.
2 championships and 2 GS was unthinkable 10 years ago

Yep, I suppose that's what I'm saying. A title win is fantastic and I'd be delighted with it. A GS would be amazing and I'd be over the moon. But I'd still be more than happy with 4 in 10 (2009, 2014, 2015 & 2018).

Bridge93 · 26-02-2018 12:24pm

YOu could make an argument that England getting 5 in Paris and as a result staying in the comp would be bad for championship chances (marginal still so long as we do the business with Scotland) but good for GS ambitions. England would be forced to chase it and may expose themselves. Would still rather the championship is done and dusted by London

Former Former · 26-02-2018 1:31pm

As posted on the Munster thread, Conway continues to get treatment on his knee and N Scannell got another rib injury.

The chances of SOB appearing at any point must be receding too.

On the plus side, I don't think we picked up any new injuries.

So I guess we're unlikely to see too many changes for the Scotland game, maybe Ringrose for the 23 jersey if he can put in a good shift against Scarlets this weekend.

bilston · 26-02-2018 1:57pm

Former Former wrote: »

As posted on the Munster thread, Conway continues to get treatment on his knee and N Scannell got another rib injury.

The chances of SOB appearing at any point must be receding too.

On the plus side, I don't think we picked up any new injuries.

So I guess we're unlikely to see too many changes for the Scotland game, maybe Ringrose for the 23 jersey if he can put in a good shift against Scarlets this weekend.

I'd expect Furlong and Henderson to return if they're fit.

Former Former · 26-02-2018 2:02pm

bilston wrote: »

I'd expect Furlong and Henderson to return if they're fit.

Yeah, that's a given, and the indications are good for both I think?

Not sure Toner made much of a case for himself against Wales really, he wasn't bad but for a guy fighting for his place, it probably wasn't enough to prevent a swift return to the bench.

Porter is never going to keep Furlong out but he definitely sealed the 18 jersey for the foreseeable future.

Webbs · 26-02-2018 2:03pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

I'd be really excited to win the championship. I'd be more excited to win the GS. We've come so close and been robbed of both a number of times through the noughties that a bit of payback is in order

3 championships and a GS in 10 years would be amazing.
2 championships and 2 GS was unthinkable 10 years ago

The championship would have been the least that Ireland would have aimed to win this year. At the start it really was only Ireland and England in with a shout especially how the fixtures panned out. Ireland have done their bit and unless England have some major turnaround then they are there for the taking in London.

26-02-2018 2:38pm

If England get 5 in round 4 and we only get 4 I'll be wearing my brown pants for the last weekend.

Despite this, I wouldn't take the Championship, but only the Championship if you offered it to me now. I'd rather the shot at the Grand Slam. It's not to devalue the Championship nor is it because I want to keep it a surprise, but logically at this point I think the risks to our Championship hopes are quite low.

The above mentioned possibility is the only remotely possible outcome that would leave us in jeopardy. No part of me believes that Scotland will turn us over at home. I think it's more likely that we would get a bonus point win than any kind of loss. Similarly, England might win in Twickenham, but I fail to see them putting up such a score that they account for whatever the difference is likely to be between us after round 4.

I also think it's much more likely that Ireland will get a bonus point this weekend than England will.

The one concern I have is that Ireland have occasionally been at a point where they can wrap up a championship or a tour with a win but conspire to produce a loss out of nowhere. Leinster have done it plenty of times also, winning hard fought games as the bookies underdog but then losing almost bankers at the worst possible time.

If we can show mettle in two weeks and play somewhat near our best we'll put Scotland away with 15 or more points to spare. If we do that I'm confident we will have the title won or won beyond any rational doubt before the lads head over to London.

Sangre · 26-02-2018 2:44pm

I just can't see Scotland (with their away record) beating us (with our home record).

mangobob · 26-02-2018 3:00pm

awec wrote: »

We all got a thrill out of beating England last year and denying them one. To then say we aren’t that bothered about winning it ourselves seems a bit small time.

I dunno, to start writing off a GS already seems like we’re back to downplaying expectations again.

Picking up a championship after losing to England would be pretty bittersweet. Losing to Scotland and beating England would absolutely suck.

I think its not so much a case of writing off a Grand Slam and saying we are not bothered if we win it. I would LOVE us to win it. Its more that I would object to people writing off winning a Championship as if it were some kind of runner up prize. Its not. Its THE prize, one that we would have given our left arm for on so many occasions.

I would agree with those who say the Grandslam is the cherry on top. To regard winning another championship as something that would be disappointing without the GS is devaluing it massively, imho. Winning the latter against England on the final day would be absolutely fantastic. But if we don't, I will still be DELIGHTED with the trophy.

Having said that, I completely get the argument that this team should be aiming for the slam. That is correct. We definitely are good enough to do it and that's what we should aspire to. But setting aspirational standards is one thing, downgrading the trophy as a runner up prize is another thing altogether.

Yeah_Right · 26-02-2018 3:22pm

The expectation has to be winning title from the position Ireland are in. A Grand Slam, in Twickenham would be holy ****!!!! Not winning the GS but winning the title would be a bit of a let down as the last match is a loss. That's always disappointing. Like losing the last match in a three test series. That is not meant to devalue the title. A third title in 5 years would be amazing.

I remember people celebrating Triple Crowns!! DVDs were made about it. Basically celebrating coming second. The title is everything. A GS and a TC is a bonus.

I think the worst thing about not winning the GS would be that certain pundits would use it as a stick to beat JS with.

molloyjh · 26-02-2018 3:38pm

mangobob wrote: »

Its more that I would object to people writing off winning a Championship as if it were some kind of runner up prize. Its not.

Yeah, that's what I was failing to say earlier.

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-02-2018 3:45pm

The championship is everything. The GS, a detail about how comprehensive the championship was.
Offered the championship now, I would take it and run.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781