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CIE Unions Pathological Strike Culture

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    #32
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    It's not a requirement as you would be covered anyway in senarios like the recent pay claims.
    Anyone that tells you different is talking bull.


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    #33
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    All members in the 3 companies are in their own bubbles, they always get upset by the media coverage of action as well and how its all lies while most also have a major problem with FG and the NTA!

    There you go with that big paint brush again :)


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    #34
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    There you go with that big paint brush again :)

    I accept a bad choice of words but a considerable amount have such a view or those in Connolly could just be a more positive bunch :D


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    #35
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    cuckmeister wrote: »
    I completely agree. Industrial relations in the transport industry are just horsecrap. Whether it's Irish Rail, Dublin Bus or the Luas, it's all the same — angry workers want an unrealistic pay increase, CIÉ ignores them, strike occurs, go back to step one.

    so no different to any other strike situation, where the workers will look for the highest possible and the company will go to the lowest offer.
    cuckmeister wrote: »
    I don't believe that the CIÉ should even bother meeting the demands of transport unions as opposed to spending such money on improving aspects of Irish transport (e.g speed and greater capacity for people). However, the CIÉ definitely needs to take a more proactive approach in dealing with this debacle. What should this “proactive approach” be? Honestly, your guess is as good as mine. All I know is that there could be more done than is currently being done.

    negotiation between both sides is the best way to solve the issue. in fact it's the only truely viable way. strikes are a fact of life across the world.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #36
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I accept a bad choice of words but a considerable amount have such a view or those in Connolly could just be a more positive bunch :D

    Nah, miserable feckers them lot are :)


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    #37
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,190 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    CarlosHarpic wrote: »
    As much as I love the DART underground idea. No way can tax payers money be fed into such an important project with this twisted union culture holding power over it.

    Metro all the way.

    Now, that's ideological nonsense. DART Underground is an infrastructure investment that could benefit the city for centuries. The current actualities of CIE or staffing or pay disputes pail in significance. Build a tunnel that steels Dublin's infrastructure capacity for decades and decades to come. Within our lifetimes the trains running through that tunnel will be fully automated.

    We need both, we needed both a couple of decades ago. Saying you won't build one or both because unions is political bull**** of the highest order. The kind of thing people gobble up from our politicians year in and year out when it comes to infrastructure in this country.


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    #38
    Billgirlylegs
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Billgirlylegs


    hmmm wrote: »
    There should be no strikes in protected public sector companies - it's easy to pull out the strike card every time you don't like something, because there is no consequences for the striker.

    If you want a public sector monopoly, no strikes. If there is a private sector alternative, strike away. The public can then side with whoever they want.

    CIE operate mostly as a monopoly - they should have no strike clauses in their contracts.

    Do we have that many strikes?
    What information did the OP find, and did they list the offending disputes.
    Off the top of my head (regular Dublin Bus commuter) I can't think of too many recent strikes/disputes disrupting service.


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    #39
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Billgirlylegs wrote: »
    Do we have that many strikes?
    What information did the OP find, and did they list the offending disputes.
    Off the top of my head (regular Dublin Bus commuter) I can't think of too many recent strikes/disputes disrupting service.

    exactly. people over exaggerate the amount of strikes. yes of course a strike is inconvenient, i have been effected myself a few times. but when we really look at it, striking is quite limited. in nearly all cases it's a day and that's it, only in a couple of exceptional circumstances have there been more.
    anyway in my opinion i think the op is a hit and run so i'd be surprised if he answers your question.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #40
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    When you have places like IÉ that didn't get a pay rise for 8 years you can see why unions would be considering striking.

    They are paid largely out of the public funds, they should have had paycuts imposed like all other public servants between 2009 and 2012.

    Only if and when other public servants have their pay restored, should CIE / NTA employees be even considered for increases.

    The trouble is that tram drivers were allowed increases when Howlin was supposed to have been controlling public expenditure. Naturally, train and bus drivers want the same, and who could blame them.

    What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander!
    Fair play all round should be the motto.


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    #41
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Agreed, there was/are at least 2 DART drivers who are not union members

    I worked on London Transport 1979-80, just as Maggie Thatcher started to squeeze the pips out of public service - there were four fare increases in little over a year. One of the reasons I left was that I felt ashamed to demand higher and higher fares from people who could not afford it.

    At that time there was a closed shop, drivers and guards could choose between NUR and ASLEF, booking clerks between NUR and TSSA.

    A train guard became a booking clerk, he showed me his payslip, no union deduction. He had told the various union reps that he was in the rival union, in both grades, and got away it.


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    #42
    Colonel Claptrap
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    end of the road wrote: »
    exactly. people over exaggerate the amount of strikes. yes of course a strike is inconvenient, i have been effected myself a few times. but when we really look at it, striking is quite limited. in nearly all cases it's a day and that's it, only in a couple of exceptional circumstances have there been more.

    It's not just the odd day of strike action that's the problem.
    It's the whole circus act of refusing to enact change, delay and stamping feet which eventually leads to the odd day of strike action.

    How long is the 10 minute DART service delayed now? Im effected by that every single day.


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    #43
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    tabbey wrote: »
    They are paid largely out of the public funds, they should have had paycuts imposed like all other public servants between 2009 and 2012.

    Only if and when other public servants have their pay restored, should CIE / NTA employees be even considered for increases.

    The trouble is that tram drivers were allowed increases when Howlin was supposed to have been controlling public expenditure. Naturally, train and bus drivers want the same, and who could blame them.

    What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander!
    Fair play all round should be the motto.

    But IE, BE and DB are all semi state bodies meaning they're staff are not public servants meaning they do follow any public sector pay deals.

    CIE employees are members of strong trade unions who are willing to stand up and fight for their members pay and terms and conditions. That is a fact whether you like it or not your gonna have to accept it.

    Luas drivers work for Transdev a private company. They are private sector workers so why would they be part of a public sector deal?


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    #44
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    It's not just the odd day of strike action that's the problem.
    It's the whole circus act of refusing to enact change, delay and stamping feet which eventually leads to the odd day of strike action.

    How long is the 10 minute DART service delayed now? Im effected by that every single day.


    how are you effected by there being no 10 minute dart. i wouldn't be confident that a 10 minute dart won't effect you more, especially when something goes bang.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #45
    Colonel Claptrap
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    end of the road wrote: »
    how are you effected by there being no 10 minute dart. i wouldn't be confident that a 10 minute dart won't effect you more, especially when something goes bang.

    You seem resistant to change.

    Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?


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    #46
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    how are you effected by there being no 10 minute dart. i wouldn't be confident that a 10 minute dart won't effect you more, especially when something goes bang.

    :confused::confused::confused:

    This is bizarre logic.


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    #47
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    You seem resistant to change.

    Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?

    No they don't they deserve 5 minute DART's but 10 minute is a start


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    #48
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    You seem resistant to change.

    Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?

    i don't care about change as long as other rail users aren't negatively effected. if they are, then i will care. at peak times a 10 minute dart may be warrented but i have some reservations about outside such times.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #49
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »

    This is bizarre logic.

    it's not.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No they don't they deserve 5 minute DART's but 10 minute is a start

    if you want 5 minute darts, then you know what you have to do. get as many like minded people together and call for the required infrastructure. it will cost but as a tax payer myself i will say it would be worth the cost. write to local politicians, ministers, NTA, whoever. we all deserve it to happen.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #50
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't care about change as long as other rail users aren't negatively effected. if they are, then i will care. at peak times a 10 minute dart may be warrented but i have some reservations about outside such times.
    So you're happy to negatively affect thousands for hundreds?


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    #51
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,261 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    So you're happy to negatively affect thousands for hundreds?

    He is devout to the NBRU so of course he is!


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    #52
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's not.

    You can't see how waiting up to 20 minutes on peak for a Dart would negatively affect commuters? You can't see how waiting for less time would be a positive. I mean this argument is just so bizarre I'm unable to tackle it in any realistic way.


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    #53
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    So you're happy to negatively affect thousands for hundreds?

    i'm not negatively effecting anyone.
    pjohnson wrote: »
    He is devout to the NBRU so of course he is!

    i'm not a member of the NBRU.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #54
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm not negatively effecting anyone.

    You're negatively affecting the DART users for a hand full of IC users


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    #55
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You can't see how waiting up to 20 minutes on peak for a Dart would negatively affect commuters? You can't see how waiting for less time would be a positive. I mean this argument is just so bizarre I'm unable to tackle it in any realistic way.

    sorry but it's a first world problem. annoying, sure, but of all the things to complain about in the world this is at the bottom or near it.
    the thing is we cannot say for sure yet whether you would be waiting less time with a 10 minute dart because to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been tested to scope the possible timings yet.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You're negatively affecting the DART users for a hand full of IC users

    i'm not negatively effecting anyone for anyone. the railway just as much belongs to IC passengers as dart users so you will just have to come to terms with it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #56
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    sorry but it's a first world problem. .

    First world problem ? This is the level of debate . Pathetic , I'm out.


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    #57
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But IE, BE and DB are all semi state bodies meaning they're staff are not public servants meaning they do follow any public sector pay deals.

    The cost of investment and operation is paid from the exchequer, apart from what the fare box contributes. It is exactly the same as the health service, which is part funded by private fees.

    CIE employees are members of strong trade unions who are willing to stand up and fight for their members pay and terms and conditions. That is a fact whether you like it or not your gonna have to accept it.

    So what you are saying is that the law of the jungle should prevail.

    Luas drivers work for Transdev a private company. They are private sector workers so why would they be part of a public sector deal?

    Transdev merely operates the service on behalf of the NTA. The service is funded entirely by the exchequer, apart from fare revenue, over which Transdev has no control.


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    #58
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    tabbey wrote: »
    Transdev merely operates the service on behalf of the NTA. The service is funded entirely by the exchequer, apart from fare revenue, over which Transdev has no control.

    But their staff work for Transdev a private company meaning they are private sector employees. That's like saying construction workers building a public building are public sector employees and they should be on the same pay deal.


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    #59
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But their staff work for Transdev a private company meaning they are private sector employees. That's like saying construction workers building a public building are public sector employees and they should be on the same pay deal.

    Construction workers are not the same, they suffered layoffs during the meltdown, and many had to emigrate.
    Tram, train and bus drivers all retained their secure jobs and overtime.


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    #60
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    tabbey wrote: »
    Construction workers are not the same, they suffered layoffs during the meltdown, and many had to emigrate.
    Tram, train and bus drivers all retained their secure jobs and overtime.

    I was using construction workers purely as an example the same could be said cleaners, maintence staff and other staff that work for private companies which are contracted to provide a service on behalf of a government body such the NTA, the HSE, The DoE, The DoH etc. They are private sector workers as they work for a private company.

    Do have a problem with people who have a secure job with good overtime?


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    #61
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You're negatively affecting the DART users for a hand full of IC users

    Oh would you stop with this line of reasoning. The whole "mentoring is delaying a 10min service" is a copout. Seriously there is 2 real reasons why a 10m service isnt gonna work.

    1) Northern Line Bottleneck and
    2) 5 level crossings over 2~3KM on the southside.

    I honestly think that the 10m service is a bad idea not out of principal but because the DART isnt a standalone system. It has to share capacity with mainline and intercity trains and capacity will be so tight that the smallest of things is all it will take to break the whole lot down.


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