CIE Unions Pathological Strike Culture

CarlosHarpic

Spent the last two days reading back threads on here and the train sub forum for 8 years of threads and one particular dynamic jumps out is the CIE rail and bus unions and strikes. They are to strikes what KFC is to fried chicken.

There are almost no threads about new services or positive development in CIE public transport when compared to strikes and industrial action threads. The CIE unions live in a permanent 'strike soon 'mode.

As much as I love the DART underground idea. No way can tax payers money be fed into such an important project with this twisted union culture holding power over it.

Metro all the way.

endacl

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

Spent the last two days reading back threads on here and the train sub forum for 8 years of threads

Now, that's pathological.

end of the road

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

Spent the last two days reading back threads on here and the train sub forum for 8 years of threads and one particular dynamic jumps out is the CIE rail and bus unions and strikes. They are to strikes what KFC is to fried chicken.

There are almost no threads about new services or positive development in CIE public transport when compared to strikes and industrial action threads. The CIE unions live in a permanent 'strike soon 'mode.

unions in the odd strike shocker. unions exist in a number of , if not most large public transport companies both public and private, and they strike. it's a fact of life.

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

As much as I love the DART underground idea. No way can tax payers money be fed into such an important project with this twisted union culture holding power over it. Metro all the way.

yes it can. the unions have nothing to do with the project. DU is a needed project and is separate to metro, not building it because it's operator has a union is just a copout excuse. also, the metro very may well have a union or unions. in fact it's highly likely it will as there will be some staff working on it. assuming it is ever built.

bebeman

Unions standing up for workers rights is a bad thing now?
Workers should be lucky to have a job, never mind pay or conditions?

LeinsterDub

When you have places like IÉ that didn't get a pay rise for 8 years you can see why unions would be considering striking. However my major issue with the unions is their resistance to change, and said resistance to changing disappearing when money is found.

Now when I say change I'm talking about stuff that wouldn't really affect your conditions or in other workplaces would be considered all in a days work

For example, training new employees, driving to new stops, electric pay etc.

brokenarms

In general they are a good thing. It keeps wages good. Which sets a standard of pay for the whole industry.

But. I have seen so many instances where the union craps on its newer members to facilitate it old members. In Dublin bus. When I say newer, people there less that a decade.

Stephen15

One thing that's never been made clear to me is in DB, IE and BE do workers have to be in a union ie is it a closed shop? Just wondering more out of curiosity than anything. Always assumed it was but am not 100% sure.

brokenarms

Stephen15 wrote: »

One thing that's never been made clear to me is in DB, IE and BE do workers have to be in a union ie is it a closed shop? Just wondering more out of curiosity than anything. Always assumed it was but am not 100% sure.

One is required to join commencing employment.

brokenarms

brokenarms wrote: »

One is required to join commencing employment.

Who sets that requirement?

newcavanman

Stephen15 wrote: »

One thing that's never been made clear to me is in DB, IE and BE do workers have to be in a union ie is it a closed shop? Just wondering more out of curiosity than anything. Always assumed it was but am not 100% sure.

I know quite a few people in DB and IE , and the truth is , you'd get no thanks for saying you didnt want to go on strike . While i really like trains, unless you live in a few particular areas, they are just a disaster financially in ireland. While there is a case for DART and outer suburban services in the Dublin area, not too many people round the rest of the country are willing to actually pay to use their services. Its a lt easier to drive, thats the simple fact unless you live within 10 miles of a mainline station . And for those not living that near, if they want to use public transport , there are a plethora of private bus services .
The public transport unions are like dinosaurs. They cant and wont see , that they need to move with the times or they will die. I really believe its only a matter of time. When the next major economic shock comes along , the government of the day will have to make some very very hard decsions

Wishbone Ash

brokenarms wrote: »

One is required to join commencing employment.

I'm open to correction but I think the Industrial Relations Act 1990 ended the requirement to join a trade union in any workplace. Just as an employee has a constitution right to be in a trade union, they also have a right not to be in a trade union.

goingnowhere

Agreed, there was/are at least 2 DART drivers who are not union members

Idbatterim

The puss taking is supported by government. When they strike and just get what they want and are used to it. Of course their behaviour won't change. Last time they striked, id have walked away from the table and shut down rail transport for a few days. Let's see how their behaviour chahges when their pay is being targeted.

trellheim

Unions standing up for workers rights is a bad thing now?
Workers should be lucky to have a job, never mind pay or conditions?

In many workplace the Unions and management work closely together to achieve an optimal outcome. You do not see much of this because it happens quietly because airing in public brings no benefits.

CIE Unions seem to believe it is all a zero-sum game, nothing for nothing.

The dogma - as can be seen here from the regularly deleted postings that mention "thatcherite", "blueshirt" and other such terms, seem to indicate thinking stuck in the '70s and hold up management as 'dem bosses'

In addition there is a culture of complaint about every single thing. Management gave a 500 euro tax free voucher (500!) and they found ways to whinge about it.

end of the road

newcavanman wrote: »

While i really like trains, unless you live in a few particular areas, they are just a disaster financially in ireland. While there is a case for DART and outer suburban services in the Dublin area, not too many people round the rest of the country are willing to actually pay to use their services. Its a lt easier to drive, thats the simple fact unless you live within 10 miles of a mainline station . And for those not living that near, if they want to use public transport , there are a plethora of private bus services .

private bus services do not meet and cannot meet the needs of those currently using rail services, for which only those rail services can meet our needs. the vast majority of rail services in ireland are well used and have room for growth. trains all over the world require subsidy, and the trains in ireland in the majority of cases are far from a financial disaster. in fact, ireland does get a very cheap rail service in terms of tax payer contributions (it has a whole lot of problems which are easily solvible however)

newcavanman wrote: »

The public transport unions are like dinosaurs. They cant and wont see , that they need to move with the times or they will die. I really believe its only a matter of time. When the next major economic shock comes along , the government of the day will have to make some very very hard decsions

the unions are perfectly fine. the only way they will die is if no new members join. new members will join, especially as people get sick of the likes of 0 hours and other employer methods of screwing employees.

Idbatterim wrote: »

The puss taking is supported by government. When they strike and just get what they want and are used to it. Of course their behaviour won't change. Last time they striked, id have walked away from the table and shut down rail transport for a few days. Let's see how their behaviour chahges when their pay is being targeted.

they lose pay when they go on strike as they don't get paid. so what you would do isn't viable or valid because the aim is already achieved due to being on strike. it would disrupt those of us using rail for longer then maybe necessary out of spite to get at the unions also, which i and many others would not tolerate. i'm okay with my services being disrupted due to strike action, i'm not okay with it being disrupted out of spite to get at unions and their members.

Stephen15

brokenarms wrote: »

One is required to join commencing employment.

How does it work do they approach anyone accepted into the training school or when the drivers passes their test and is assigned a depot will a shop steward from SIPTU and the NBRU approach the new recruit saying take your pick you have join one of us.

Macy0161

trellheim wrote:

In many workplace the Unions and management work closely together to achieve an optimal outcome. You do not see much of this because it happens quietly because airing in public brings no benefits.

CIE Unions seem to believe it is all a zero-sum game, nothing for nothing.

It takes two to tango. From the outside, there seems to be a real lack of engagement to get agreed changes in cie. That's rarely one sided, and if IR is such a problem the management side have to take some responsibility.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

private bus services do not meet and cannot meet the needs of those currently using rail services, for which only those rail services can meet our needs. the vast majority of rail services in ireland are well used and have room for growth. trains all over the world require subsidy, and the trains in ireland in the majority of cases are far from a financial disaster. in fact, ireland does get a very cheap rail service in terms of tax payer contributions (it has a whole lot of problems which are easily solvible however)

This is half the issue with the CIÉ group and their unions. Everything is rosey in the garden why would things need to change and if anything should change it's that more good money should be thrown after bad (see recent talk of IÉ requiring half a billion euro)

Hilly Bill

brokenarms wrote: »

One is required to join commencing employment.

No they don't.

Rootsblower

StreetLight wrote: »

Yes, they do.

No they don’t plenty of IE staff not in unions

Idbatterim

Shut the line down on weekends over the summer. The workers need ther salary far more than we need, a few weekends of rail service over the summer. The entire bloody rail network will probably carry less than luas does when all of the new trams are delivered and the current ones extended ...

end of the road

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This is half the issue with the CIÉ group and their unions. Everything is rosey in the garden why would things need to change and if anything should change it's that more good money should be thrown after bad (see recent talk of IÉ requiring half a billion euro)

the reason IE may require half a billion is due to underinvestment in the infrastructure. that is both the government and IE'S fault, and it would require the money whoever would operate it given the funding cuts that were in place for a few years. investing in our railways is not throwing good money after bad, given it provides a viable alternative to constant road spending and expansion, which (if it was the only option) will never be able to meet all traffic needs, and wouldn't be financially viable or sustainible to the country. road and rail along the existing corridors is the best, most viable way to meet our transport needs. good oversight in relation to insuring the money spent on the railway delivers what is promised is vital and government are guilty of not insuring it. but that doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't change.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Shut the line down on weekends over the summer. The workers need ther salary far more than we need, a few weekends of rail service over the summer. The entire bloody rail network will probably carry less than luas does when all of the new trams are delivered and the current ones extended ...

if there is the odd shut down at the weekend it's due to upgrades or other essential works. funnily enough that is something that is not unique to here either.
of course luas will cary large amounts of people it is in the capital city and there is huge demand for public transport thankfully. the railway we have thankfully is viable and has lots of room for growth, and is growing i hear.
so i'm not sure what your point is tbh.

hmmm

Idbatterim wrote: »

The puss taking is supported by government. When they strike and just get what they want and are used to it. Of course their behaviour won't change. Last time they striked, id have walked away from the table and shut down rail transport for a few days. Let's see how their behaviour chahges when their pay is being targeted.

There should be no strikes in protected public sector companies - it's easy to pull out the strike card every time you don't like something, because there is no consequences for the striker.

If you want a public sector monopoly, no strikes. If there is a private sector alternative, strike away. The public can then side with whoever they want.

CIE operate mostly as a monopoly - they should have no strike clauses in their contracts.

Jamie2k9

All members in the 3 companies are in their own bubbles, they always get upset by the media coverage of action as well and how its all lies while most also have a major problem with FG and the NTA!

trellheim

It takes two to tango. From the outside, there seems to be a real lack of engagement to get agreed changes in cie. That's rarely one sided, and if IR is such a problem the management side have to take some responsibility.

They sure do and it does indeed take two, that does not preclude the Union side evolving and stepping out of the 70s gestures and rhetoric.

Jamie2k9

brokenarms wrote: »

In general they are a good thing. It keeps wages good. Which sets a standard of pay for the whole industry.

But. I have seen so many instances where the union craps on its newer members to facilitate it old members. In Dublin bus. When I say newer, people there less that a decade.

CIE unions don't set any sort of standard for the industry.

The threat of privatization scares a lot of staff in the companies. I like to think it keeps them on their toes.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

There should be no strikes in protected public sector companies - it's easy to pull out the strike card every time you don't like something, because there is no consequences for the striker.

If you want a public sector monopoly, no strikes. If there is a private sector alternative, strike away. The public can then side with whoever they want.

CIE operate mostly as a monopoly - they should have no strike clauses in their contracts.

a no strike clause would be against worker's rights and democracy. allowing them to strike only where there is a private sector alternative would be favouritism toards the private sector operator which we cannot allow.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

CIE unions don't set any sort of standard for the industry.

The threat of privatization scares a lot of staff in the companies. I like to think it keeps them on their toes.

the threat of privatization scares a lot of the public as well thankfully.

Jamie2k9

a no strike clause would be against worker's rights and democracy. allowing them to strike only where there is a private sector alternative would be favouritism toards the private sector operator which we cannot allow.

Nonsense.

the threat of privatization scares a lot of the public as well thankfully.

More nonsense, just wait and see the top class service Go-Ahead will offer to people of Dublin. The public are more scared of closures however privatization dons't mean that. The union like to spin it and play on the public's fears.

XPS_Zero

bebeman wrote: »

Unions standing up for workers rights is a bad thing now?
Workers should be lucky to have a job, never mind pay or conditions?

Always it comes to this...always...you complain about CIE or Irish ps unions in general and you get the boilerplate reply of portraying that without them going totally over the top like this we'd have the workhouses back and child labour, nobody reasonable is against unions

Irish PS unions are not hated because they protect workers they are hated because:

1. Instead of protecting workers rights moreoften than not they instead protect inefficiency, laziness, bad work practices
2. They throw a spanner in the works every single time a progressive positive change to the transport system is suggested
3. They distort the truth instead of having a fair an honest discussion (ie the lie, yes it's a LIE that there were no pay rises for 8 years, apparently ''incriments'' (ie f---g PAY RISES!) don't count as pay rises)


THey are not honest actors who just advocate for workers and protect them from abuse they are an active force for bad, and because of them and unions like them elsewhere they are going to end up destroying workers rights in the long run. How could a union destroy workers rights you ask?
Where did Maggy Thatcher and Reagan and rthe PD's come from? a climate where exccecssive PS union power went into overdrive with unburied bodies on the streets, trash uncollected, busted monopolies like Telecom Eireann abusing their customers. So they help to force the exasperated public towards reactionary right wing politicians, and let me tell you as someone involved in politics since I was a kid there are many right wingers (mostly in FG but still) coming up the ranks who would happily tear our public services and safety net to shreds. At the moment they are considered the fringe, but if you create the right climate people like them will triumph.

Their protecting inefficiency, protesting every little f---g change no matter how small and striking over stupid things like new trains also destroyes the idea of unions in the public mindset, union membership is declining RIGHT at a time when it needs to be skyrocketing. The public have been deluded into thinking that because of labour laws and because were not the United States because we in Europe are all progressive in our policies we no longer need unions, but we got most of that fluffy progressive stuff because of unions, labour parties and collective effort in the first place and tribalistic militant PS unions are going to destroy the very thing they helped create. We are living in a world now where new labour rights will be coming to the fore:

• automation
• employers demanding social media access of employees and candidates for interview
• challenges of globalization

We need unions now more than ever but when normal people (NOT people who think it's sane to have represnatives from the Cuban or Venezualan dictatorship at their union hall, who think in purely ideological terms - normal everyday workers) look at people striking over new trains or 10 minute DARTs and throwing a spanner in the works CONSTANTLY they roll their eyes and think "this is all unions seem to do, even 3 euro a week out of my paycheque is too much for these clowns". That's before getting into the disgustingly overpaid union leadership who move in the same bubble as the elite on 6 figure saleries with their kids in fee paying schools who then turn up to uni influenced by their parents indoctrination and start ironic protests like "no free speech for fascists" :rolleyes:...sorry off topic I know but it's a dig I could not resist given the obvious pattern. These same overpaid leaders also seem to never ever go away once they are in office, how long have the same 3-4 berdos been in those same jobs? how many boards have they been on they had no qualification or business being anywhere near?

But the usual suspects won't bother to think of this from our perspective, they'll dismiss us all as reactionary right wingers (even though I'm no such thing I've always been a union member, in the private sector where my employers don't have a money printer and taxation power ) and they will keep making the same mistakes, union power and numbers will keep declining, and reactionary elements will get in charge and tear CIE and the HSE and the rest to peices and the beardos will not for a split second think they had any hand in fuelling any of it.

I can only hope from the ashes that a new union movement can emerge that protects workers rights, not waste, bad work practices, inefficiency and sloth.

Jamie2k9

This just highlights the stark difference between he NBRU and SIPTU branch of CIE.

Air traffic controllers have been told by their trade union to work beyond agreed safety and fatigue limits because of staffing shortages in the control tower at Shannon Airport.

If controllers refuse to go along with the union and Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) deal to extend the overtime limitations it could lead to staff shortages and potential disruption.

Many staff are understood to be furious with trade union officials after they agreed the deal without widespread consultation that these limits could be broken in the Shannon control tower.

"The union does not favour or encourage overtime but it once again has become evident that it is a necessary resource to enable the provision of service until staff numbers are corrected."

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/air-traffic-controllers-told-to-work-beyond-overtime-limits-by-union-36589501.html

brokenarms

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No they don't.

Better tell that to the peeps in the training school then. We had to join after we got our permanent staff numbers.

Stephen15 wrote: »

How does it work do they approach anyone accepted into the training school or when the drivers passes their test and is assigned a depot will a shop steward from SIPTU and the NBRU approach the new recruit saying take your pick you have join one of us.

Once trainees pass the test and finish all the class work the NBRU and Siptu are given a 15 min pitch each . In a closed room with the class.

10 mins of which is spent slagging the other union off about what they did or did not do at some stage. Everyone is given folders full of paper from each union about what they done in the past, like election pamphlets . They do supply the duty bills for your garage as well . Thats really the only thing you keep.

Then you pick.

And a fiver is taken from you pay at source forever.

As said. We were told is was a requirement. At that stage of recruitment, after the hurdles we had to jump to get that far, no one was going to argue.
Also, its best just being in the union as you might need them if you have a bash and its your fault.

Hilly Bill

It's not a requirement as you would be covered anyway in senarios like the recent pay claims.
Anyone that tells you different is talking bull.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All members in the 3 companies are in their own bubbles, they always get upset by the media coverage of action as well and how its all lies while most also have a major problem with FG and the NTA!

There you go with that big paint brush again

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There you go with that big paint brush again

I accept a bad choice of words but a considerable amount have such a view or those in Connolly could just be a more positive bunch

end of the road

cuckmeister wrote: »

I completely agree. Industrial relations in the transport industry are just horsecrap. Whether it's Irish Rail, Dublin Bus or the Luas, it's all the same — angry workers want an unrealistic pay increase, CIÉ ignores them, strike occurs, go back to step one.

so no different to any other strike situation, where the workers will look for the highest possible and the company will go to the lowest offer.

cuckmeister wrote: »

I don't believe that the CIÉ should even bother meeting the demands of transport unions as opposed to spending such money on improving aspects of Irish transport (e.g speed and greater capacity for people). However, the CIÉ definitely needs to take a more proactive approach in dealing with this debacle. What should this “proactive approach” be? Honestly, your guess is as good as mine. All I know is that there could be more done than is currently being done.

negotiation between both sides is the best way to solve the issue. in fact it's the only truely viable way. strikes are a fact of life across the world.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I accept a bad choice of words but a considerable amount have such a view or those in Connolly could just be a more positive bunch

Nah, miserable feckers them lot are

LuckyLloyd

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

As much as I love the DART underground idea. No way can tax payers money be fed into such an important project with this twisted union culture holding power over it.

Metro all the way.

Now, that's ideological nonsense. DART Underground is an infrastructure investment that could benefit the city for centuries. The current actualities of CIE or staffing or pay disputes pail in significance. Build a tunnel that steels Dublin's infrastructure capacity for decades and decades to come. Within our lifetimes the trains running through that tunnel will be fully automated.

We need both, we needed both a couple of decades ago. Saying you won't build one or both because unions is political bull**** of the highest order. The kind of thing people gobble up from our politicians year in and year out when it comes to infrastructure in this country.

Billgirlylegs

hmmm wrote: »

There should be no strikes in protected public sector companies - it's easy to pull out the strike card every time you don't like something, because there is no consequences for the striker.

If you want a public sector monopoly, no strikes. If there is a private sector alternative, strike away. The public can then side with whoever they want.

CIE operate mostly as a monopoly - they should have no strike clauses in their contracts.

Do we have that many strikes?
What information did the OP find, and did they list the offending disputes.
Off the top of my head (regular Dublin Bus commuter) I can't think of too many recent strikes/disputes disrupting service.

end of the road

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Do we have that many strikes?
What information did the OP find, and did they list the offending disputes.
Off the top of my head (regular Dublin Bus commuter) I can't think of too many recent strikes/disputes disrupting service.

exactly. people over exaggerate the amount of strikes. yes of course a strike is inconvenient, i have been effected myself a few times. but when we really look at it, striking is quite limited. in nearly all cases it's a day and that's it, only in a couple of exceptional circumstances have there been more.
anyway in my opinion i think the op is a hit and run so i'd be surprised if he answers your question.

tabbey

LeinsterDub wrote: »

When you have places like IÉ that didn't get a pay rise for 8 years you can see why unions would be considering striking.

They are paid largely out of the public funds, they should have had paycuts imposed like all other public servants between 2009 and 2012.

Only if and when other public servants have their pay restored, should CIE / NTA employees be even considered for increases.

The trouble is that tram drivers were allowed increases when Howlin was supposed to have been controlling public expenditure. Naturally, train and bus drivers want the same, and who could blame them.

What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander!
Fair play all round should be the motto.

tabbey

goingnowhere wrote: »

Agreed, there was/are at least 2 DART drivers who are not union members

I worked on London Transport 1979-80, just as Maggie Thatcher started to squeeze the pips out of public service - there were four fare increases in little over a year. One of the reasons I left was that I felt ashamed to demand higher and higher fares from people who could not afford it.

At that time there was a closed shop, drivers and guards could choose between NUR and ASLEF, booking clerks between NUR and TSSA.

A train guard became a booking clerk, he showed me his payslip, no union deduction. He had told the various union reps that he was in the rival union, in both grades, and got away it.

Colonel Claptrap

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. people over exaggerate the amount of strikes. yes of course a strike is inconvenient, i have been effected myself a few times. but when we really look at it, striking is quite limited. in nearly all cases it's a day and that's it, only in a couple of exceptional circumstances have there been more.

It's not just the odd day of strike action that's the problem.
It's the whole circus act of refusing to enact change, delay and stamping feet which eventually leads to the odd day of strike action.

How long is the 10 minute DART service delayed now? Im effected by that every single day.

Stephen15

tabbey wrote: »

They are paid largely out of the public funds, they should have had paycuts imposed like all other public servants between 2009 and 2012.

Only if and when other public servants have their pay restored, should CIE / NTA employees be even considered for increases.

The trouble is that tram drivers were allowed increases when Howlin was supposed to have been controlling public expenditure. Naturally, train and bus drivers want the same, and who could blame them.

What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander!
Fair play all round should be the motto.

But IE, BE and DB are all semi state bodies meaning they're staff are not public servants meaning they do follow any public sector pay deals.

CIE employees are members of strong trade unions who are willing to stand up and fight for their members pay and terms and conditions. That is a fact whether you like it or not your gonna have to accept it.

Luas drivers work for Transdev a private company. They are private sector workers so why would they be part of a public sector deal?

end of the road

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It's not just the odd day of strike action that's the problem.
It's the whole circus act of refusing to enact change, delay and stamping feet which eventually leads to the odd day of strike action.

How long is the 10 minute DART service delayed now? Im effected by that every single day.

how are you effected by there being no 10 minute dart. i wouldn't be confident that a 10 minute dart won't effect you more, especially when something goes bang.

Colonel Claptrap

end of the road wrote: »

how are you effected by there being no 10 minute dart. i wouldn't be confident that a 10 minute dart won't effect you more, especially when something goes bang.

You seem resistant to change.

Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

how are you effected by there being no 10 minute dart. i wouldn't be confident that a 10 minute dart won't effect you more, especially when something goes bang.

This is bizarre logic.

LeinsterDub

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

You seem resistant to change.

Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?

No they don't they deserve 5 minute DART's but 10 minute is a start

end of the road

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

You seem resistant to change.

Do you not think commuters deserve a 10 minute DART?

i don't care about change as long as other rail users aren't negatively effected. if they are, then i will care. at peak times a 10 minute dart may be warrented but i have some reservations about outside such times.

end of the road

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This is bizarre logic.

it's not.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

No they don't they deserve 5 minute DART's but 10 minute is a start

if you want 5 minute darts, then you know what you have to do. get as many like minded people together and call for the required infrastructure. it will cost but as a tax payer myself i will say it would be worth the cost. write to local politicians, ministers, NTA, whoever. we all deserve it to happen.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

i don't care about change as long as other rail users aren't negatively effected. if they are, then i will care. at peak times a 10 minute dart may be warrented but i have some reservations about outside such times.

So you're happy to negatively affect thousands for hundreds?

pjohnson

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So you're happy to negatively affect thousands for hundreds?

He is devout to the NBRU so of course he is!