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CIE Unions Pathological Strike Culture

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    #122
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    The above is a perfect example of why unions are bad, not good. No reality involved, no acceptance that falling CPI should lead to devaluation and pay cuts, not allowing BE/DB/IE to shed surplus staff when services were cut due to lower demand and now, despite being on overvalued terms already they're preparing to stick out their brass necks and ask for demand even more for all staff regardless of competence, attitude or ability instead of allowing those who do a good job to be rewarded and those that don't cut free like the dead wood that they are.

    All the while the customer and tax payer pick up the ever increasing tab while the service level remains abysmal. Yay!!


    i'd say it's the opposite. unions are brilliant. not perfect but then again none of us are.
    not up to people to take a pay cut because of falling CPI or have their job devalued if they can help it. the CIE companies were not stopped from sheding staff, they did exactly that, shed staff. the staff aren't on over-valued terms, just good terms. equal terms for staff within the same grade is the right way and those who aren't up to the job according to the company will be let go from the company. remember that the individual's opinion of being up to the job can be different to the company view.
    the subsidies were cut hugely over the past few years due to the recession and they are now going back to what they need to be to run services to meet the extra demand.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #123
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'd say it's the opposite. unions are brilliant. not perfect

    Brilliant for their members not the general public. Now I'm aware that the general public isn't their remit nor should it be but that's the point of this thread the unions are too brilliant there is little to no counterweight to balance union power and intransigence.


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    #124
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Brilliant for their members not the general public.

    Brilliant for their long-standing members maybe. Unions consistently sacrifice new members to protect the standard of living for the longest serving.


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    #125
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Brilliant for their members not the general public. Now I'm aware that the general public isn't their remit nor should it be but that's the point of this thread the unions are too brilliant there is little to no counterweight to balance union power and intransigence.

    What is stopping you or others from joining a Union?


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    #126
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    sharper wrote: »
    Brilliant for their long-standing members maybe. Unions consistently sacrifice new members to protect the standard of living for the longest serving.

    All jobs have a ladder to climb, new workers get to clean the toilets and then when a new hire is made they replace you cleaning the toilets, has been this way since the dawn of time.
    The new workers know this and have no problem with it, its a fact in most jobs you got to server you time as a apprentice, before you get full benefits, so why do some have a problem with this?


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    #127
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    The above is a perfect example of why unions are bad, not good. No reality involved, no acceptance that falling CPI should lead to devaluation and pay cuts, not allowing BE/DB/IE to shed surplus staff when services were cut due to lower demand and now, despite being on overvalued terms already they're preparing to stick out their brass necks and ask for demand even more for all staff regardless of competence, attitude or ability instead of allowing those who do a good job to be rewarded and those that don't cut free like the dead wood that they are.

    All the while the customer and tax payer pick up the ever increasing tab while the service level remains abysmal. Yay!! :rolleyes:

    It a individual choice to not join a union, therefore it is a choice to stay in a position where you are taken advantaged off, so quit your bitching, take the lumps you are given, and when you have had your fill of reduced pay and conditions and unpaid overtime, join a Union and put a end to it.
    Until then suck it up and hold your tongue, feeling sorry for yourself wont get you anywhere in life, pick up the phone and call a Union and ask how i would become a member and why i should become a member.
    Only takes a little effort and time to find out if there is a way to improve your life, but posters here are too lazy or stubborn and continue to suffer shítty pay and condition at work.
    It a battered wives syndrome, too scared to make a change , but when they do its the best thing they ever have done and get on with living a new and improved life.


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    #128
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    bebeman wrote: »
    What is stopping you or others from joining a Union?

    Joining a union will not improve my bus.


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    #129
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Joining a union will not improve my bus.

    Stay used and abused outside of a union.
    You know the way drivers of BMW/Mercedes/Audi cars obey a different set of rules of the road, i will let you in on a secret, there is a different set of timetables for union members:) .


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    #130
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    bebeman wrote: »
    Stay used and abused outside of a union.
    You know the way drivers of BMW/Mercedes/Audi cars obey a different set of rules of the road, i will let you in on a secret, there is a different set of timetables for union members:) .

    I'm most certainly not used or abused outside a union.


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    #131
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    I am not letting this discussion fall into that trap. There are many good unions ( INMO, whatever Impact are calling themselves now and so on )

    I have close knowledge of senior people in both those and a ton of respect .


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    #132
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    bebeman wrote: »
    Stay used and abused outside of a union.
    You know the way drivers of BMW/Mercedes/Audi cars obey a different set of rules of the road, i will let you in on a secret, there is a different set of timetables for union members:) .

    Is that why the trains are late?


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    #133
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Is that why the trains are late?

    To be fair Rail is the bastard child of Transport, It can carry the most but it also costs the most to Upgrade and maintain. Politicians balk at the costs regardless of the potential returns (Hai DU!) then complain about delays and other issues. Its a toy set compared to the likes of London for example but the lack of serious investment over the years in the PHYSICAL infrastructure means theres little redundancy when things fail.


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    #134
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I'm most certainly not used or abused outside a union.

    I've never been in a union, never have been and never will be.

    Next year I'll have been working 30 years.

    Still not abused.


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    #135
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I've never been in a union, never have been and never will be.

    Next year I'll have been working 30 years.

    Still not abused.
    Aint you marvellous standing up for yourself!
    Reading back on discussions when DB/IE/BE go on strike there are plenty of examples of posters who are not able to fight their corner, thats where the Unions come in, they will fight for you and your rights.
    If you are not in a Union and are having problems at work , what excuse do you have for not joining a union and improving the quality of your life?
    In previous anti union discussions we see You get pay cuts, increased work load, and some even admit to unpaid overtime, “I’m lucky to have a job”, you are being taken advantaged off, end of story!

    It is a case of battered wives syndrome, you dont believe you can do better so you stay and get abused, but once you make the move to leave a whole better life opens up before them.

    Join a Union and see improvement in work conditions, or stay abused in work and hold your tongue when DB/IE/BE get better pay and conditions than you because they are not afraid to fight for them.


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    #136
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bebeman wrote: »
    Aint you marvellous standing up for yourself!
    Reading back on discussions when DB/IE/BE go on strike there are plenty of examples of posters who are not able to fight their corner, thats where the Unions come in, they will fight for you and your rights.
    If you are not in a Union and are having problems at work , what excuse do you have for not joining a union and improving the quality of your life?
    In previous anti union discussions we see You get pay cuts, increased work load, and some even admit to unpaid overtime, “I’m lucky to have a job”, you are being taken advantaged off, end of story!

    It is a case of battered wives syndrome, you dont believe you can do better so you stay and get abused, but once you make the move to leave a whole better life opens up before them.

    Join a Union and see improvement in work conditions, or stay abused in work and hold your tongue when DB/IE/BE get better pay and conditions than you because they are not afraid to fight for them.


    here here. couldn't have said it better.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #137
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    bebeman wrote: »
    Aint you marvellous standing up for yourself!
    Reading back on discussions when DB/IE/BE go on strike there are plenty of examples of posters who are not able to fight their corner, thats where the Unions come in, they will fight for you and your rights.
    If you are not in a Union and are having problems at work , what excuse do you have for not joining a union and improving the quality of your life?
    In previous anti union discussions we see You get pay cuts, increased work load, and some even admit to unpaid overtime, “I’m lucky to have a job”, you are being taken advantaged off, end of story!

    It is a case of battered wives syndrome, you dont believe you can do better so you stay and get abused, but once you make the move to leave a whole better life opens up before them.

    Join a Union and see improvement in work conditions, or stay abused in work and hold your tongue when DB/IE/BE get better pay and conditions than you because they are not afraid to fight for them.

    I doubt too many would disagree with anything you've said there . Unions are great , they protect workers, they fight for workers rights , they work to improve their members pay and conditions.

    However and this is the big but DB/IE/BE workers have great pay and conditions , they have strong dismissal procedures in place for example so in order to stay relevant the Union turns every minor request from management into a song and dance. Every request is used to extract concessions from management, every change is blocked and used as a negotiating chip. The unions are in a them and us battle with DB/IE/BE management and by proxy the travelling public.


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    #138
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Well said. Unions form a vital role for protecting workers rights, and I have every respect for Unions who don't turn everything into a zero-sum game


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    #139
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I've never been in a union, never have been and never will be.

    Next year I'll have been working 30 years.

    Still not abused.

    It all depends of the employer. Many lost their jobs a few years ago and illegally replaced by cheaper labour. In circumstances like that you need someone to stand up for your rights.


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    #140
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    However and this is the big but DB/IE/BE workers have great pay and conditions , they have strong dismissal procedures in place for example so in order to stay relevant the Union turns every minor request from management into a song and dance. Every request is used to extract concessions from management, every change is blocked and used as a negotiating chip. The unions are in a them and us battle with DB/IE/BE management and by proxy the travelling public.

    Can you give examples it's all well and good to say something without evidence. If you are referring to driver training that is not a small issue the fact of the matter is train drivers are not instructors, they are taking on extra responsibility for no extra reward.


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    #141
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Can you give examples it's all well and good to say something without evidence. If you are referring to driver training that is not a small issue the fact of the matter is train drivers are not instructors, they are taking on extra responsibility for no extra reward.
    What do you want examples of?


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    #142
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    If you are referring to driver training that is not a small issue the fact of the matter is train drivers are not instructors, they are taking on extra responsibility for no extra reward.

    Sounds like a great opportunity to me..

    A new skill to add to your CV and improve your future career prospects..


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    #143
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    What do you want examples of?

    How do unions "turn every request from management turned into a song and dance" as you put it. I have yet to see it.


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    #144
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Swanner wrote: »
    Sounds like a great opportunity to me..

    A new skill to add to your CV and improve your future career prospects..

    But most drivers will be seeing out their career at IE, so don't need to worry about that.


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    #145
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    bebeman wrote: »
    It a individual choice to not join a union, therefore it is a choice to stay in a position where you are taken advantaged off, so quit your bitching, take the lumps you are given, and when you have had your fill of reduced pay and conditions and unpaid overtime, join a Union and put a end to it.
    I'm not being taken advantage of in my company. The general public and CIE are being taken advantage of by the unions though.

    Until then suck it up and hold your tongue, feeling sorry for yourself wont get you anywhere in life, pick up the phone and call a Union and ask how i would become a member and why i should become a member.
    In a previous job I had to be in a union, for all the good it did. The union negotiated pay rise I got at some point during that was tiny, their yearly membership fee increase that year was 3 times the size! Some benefit

    Only takes a little effort and time to find out if there is a way to improve your life, but posters here are too lazy or stubborn and continue to suffer shítty pay and condition at work.
    and why is joining a union the only way to do that? Can't you see it can hold you back, st you in pay structures that don't reward anything but bare minimum. I'd never, ever, be in a union again and would not work in a role where union membership is expected as the norm.
    It a battered wives syndrome, too scared to make a change , but when they do its the best thing they ever have done and get on with living a new and improved life.
    :rolleyes:


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    #146
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    How do unions "turn every request from management turned into a song and dance" as you put it. I have yet to see it.

    drive longer trains - no, more $$ please, change shift patterns / timetable amendments - have to be approved by union, reduce service due to demand - have to keep surplus staff, 24hr running - all sorts of issues highlighted in another thread on that


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    #147
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But most drivers will be seeing out their career at IE, so don't need to worry about that.

    I was being facetious but thanks for reinforcing the point.


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    #148
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Swanner wrote: »
    I was being facetious but thanks for reinforcing the point.

    So you are annoyed that IE are happy in their jobs and intend to retire in their current positions.


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    #149
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    drive longer trains - no, more $$ please,

    longer trains equals more responsibility.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    change shift patterns / timetable amendments - have to be approved by union,

    nothing wrong with that.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    reduce service due to demand - have to keep surplus staff,

    doesn't happen, a large number of staff have been made redundant. where not, they have gone to replace staff who have retired.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    24hr running - all sorts of issues highlighted in another thread on that

    bus eireann run some 24 hour services, or at least they did. dublin bus and irish rail would as well as long as those services are paid for.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #150
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    How do unions "turn every request from management turned into a song and dance" as you put it. I have yet to see it.

    2017 people still being paid in cash. 2 years later still no 10 minute darts, driving to Greystones. Shall I continue?


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    #151
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    longer trains equals more responsibility.
    Are there extra buttons? Does the driver have to shake all the extra passengers hands?


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