Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

Shefwedfan · 05-02-2018 10:05am

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't really care how many times we've won in France. When you look at the players we had out on the pitch, a team full of extremely talented players who have been performing for their provinces, the team did not show up as the sum of its parts. I find that a bit disappointing. We can be much better than that.

Of course we can do better, as I said put them on a dry pitch and see what the result is.....

Doesn't matter how many talented players you have on a pitch if the ball is like a bar of soap and the rain is lashing down.....

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 10:12am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We have a great record at home against the Boks so how can you point to that game?

France have been a mess for years and we never got the better of them. Hence why I posted the history.

France hadn't won in November and sacked the coaching team, yes if the old coaching team was still in place that might be argument but they have gone. Also note the last time Ireland got rid of a coach mid World Cup cycle the following two 6 nations they won it.

Many a great Irish team has gone to France with lots written about them, except for 2 times those teams have been sent home with tail between their legs.....

So the fact they've completely changed their coaching staff a month before the first game is supposed to make them a better team?

This is just silly talk to me. It's the same type of thing as the Babe Ruth curse or whatever else. It was a game of rugby between two sides, one of which is far superior.

And if France had actually put it up to us then maybe it would point so some hint of you being right here, but they didn't. Ireland had 70% possession and 72% territory in the first half, we completely dominated them, because they're far inferior to us. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what the score was between Ireland and France in 2004 or 2006.

We just weren't capable of capitalising on our dominance. Guirado's 31 tackle performance was extremely impressive. But when France's tight 5 combined for the same number of tackles that the entire Irish team made, it goes a long way to showing why a team who dominated possession failed to make a single clean break over 80 minutes. Sexton's kick to Earls was fantastic, and an example of exactly what we should have been doing as soon as it became clear we weren't going to get anywhere with phase play.

kilns · 05-02-2018 11:25am

Some people I guess are never happy but the most important thing is start the championship with a win, no matter what. Some people seem to think no matter what the conditions you can just play free flowing rugby. Also, the first thing any new coach worth their salt would do is work on a teams defence as it is the easiest and quickest thing to get right. I am sure France have worked mostly on that and had hoped for breaks throughout the game to get the win. Their defence was very impressive in many aspects, from the line to their back 3 covering the kicking space to their maul defence.
If we are going to Twickenham for a Grand Slam decider no one will recall that we didnt play lovely on the eye rugby in the first away win. During Englands run over the last 2 years how many times did they win ugly and were praised for their winning mentality, we showed we are up their with the best now when we can come down the field and do what need to, just like what the All Blacks did to us a few years ago.
There are times and places for flowing rugby and we will see it this championship but Paris on Saturday was not it, due to the weather and Nigel Owens mostly.
I expect a few changes for Italy however, I suspect Stockdale could make way for Lamour, OMahoney could be make way for Conan at 8, and Leavy will come in at 7.

awec · 05-02-2018 11:45am

Interesting article in the times this morning.

Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 11:46am

My complaints are nothing to do with free flowing rugby, to be clear.

I do wish I could jump on board and pretend it was all great and that no criticism is necessary, but that's not what I saw.

And absolutely if we win a grand slam Noone will care even slightly about the nature of this victory. But we should still remember it and work on preventing it in future. Just as we should have done in 2009 given our dire performance against England when we limped to victory. Doing that in the cold light of day, maybe a few days after is just a part of being a mature, successful, organisation.

awec · 05-02-2018 11:50am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

My complaints are nothing to do with free flowing rugby, to be clear.

I do wish I could jump on board and pretend it was all great and that no criticism is necessary, but that's not what I saw.

And absolutely if we win a grand slam Noone will care even slightly about the nature of this victory. But we should still remember it and work on preventing it in future. Just as we should have done in 2009 given our dire performance against England when we limped to victory. Doing that in the cold light of day, maybe a few days after is just a part of being a mature, successful, organisation.

Yes the free flowing rugby thing is a complete red herring.

Wanting to see us turn possession into tries at a rate greater than what we do does not mean we want to see us playing like the Harlem globetrotters.

Akrasia · 05-02-2018 11:57am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So the fact they've completely changed their coaching staff a month before the first game is supposed to make them a better team?

This is just silly talk to me. It's the same type of thing as the Babe Ruth curse or whatever else. It was a game of rugby between two sides, one of which is far superior.

And if France had actually put it up to us then maybe it would point so some hint of you being right here, but they didn't. Ireland had 70% possession and 72% territory in the first half, we completely dominated them, because they're far inferior to us. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what the score was between Ireland and France in 2004 or 2006.

We just weren't capable of capitalising on our dominance. Guirado's 31 tackle performance was extremely impressive. But when France's tight 5 combined for the same number of tackles that the entire Irish team made, it goes a long way to showing why a team who dominated possession failed to make a single clean break over 80 minutes. Sexton's kick to Earls was fantastic, and an example of exactly what we should have been doing as soon as it became clear we weren't going to get anywhere with phase play.

The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.

Interested Observer · 05-02-2018 11:58am

awec wrote: »

Interesting article in the times this morning.

Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

Might be a combination of the above but tactics are a massive part of it. Without fail against anyone decent in the 6N we resort to one out passes to try to just run through/over the other team. Yes it was a wet ball etc but it's no different to how we play when it's dry. It doesn't work very well.

We're not down for a single clean break against France. Wales and England will look at that performance and think they can and should beat us.

Bazzo · 05-02-2018 12:00pm

Akrasia wrote: »

France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

This is a bit misleading though isn't it? Haven't most of their home 6 nations openers been against Italy and Scotland?

kilns · 05-02-2018 12:02pm

awec wrote: »

Interesting article in the times this morning.

Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

Would be interesting to see how many tries were scored against us in the same period by England, France and Wales. The six nations are never high try scoring affairs amongst the top teams apart from that freak game between England and France a few years ago

pickarooney · 05-02-2018 12:05pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.

But by the same token this isn't the same team that lost to SA and drew with Japan. The management and players are completely different so those results are no more relevant than the last few years of the 6N.

robyntmorton · 05-02-2018 12:08pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

This is what I thought of it too. Kick us out to 9 points in front before going for the jugular, as playing open rugby can lead to an interception run in for a try. At least with the cushion, a try against doesn't give away the lead.

That was the plan, but as we know it didn't work out. France, while not a great side right now, are no slouches, and are always more potent at home than maybe they are given credit for.

Did France play well, no. Did Ireland play well, no. Did Ireland somehow get the result, yes. That's how it goes sometimes. We can only hope that the coaching staff and the players get over the performance quickly, settle down, and show some improvement over the next couple of weeks, or then we can start calling Ireland as being one dimensional and not good enough.

molloyjh · 05-02-2018 12:08pm

awec wrote: »

Interesting article in the times this morning.

Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

Is that not normal enough though? Last year England scored 12 of their 16 against Italy and Scotland. It's incredibly normal to only manage a try, maybe 2 at most, against the better sides. We've had a few of games where we've failed to score any (France in Paris twice and Wales in Cardiff), but I don't think it's quite the big issue that people make out. We could do with improving there but we're not miles behind the curve by any means.

EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that on Englands last 2 visits to Ireland they have failed to score any tries.

kilns · 05-02-2018 12:09pm

What needs to be accounted for when a team wishes to play a more expansive game and stretch the opposition is the referee and how they patrol the breakdown. Owens was poor in that aspect on Saturday and allowed France lie all over the ball preventing quick ball, as we actually looked good when we did get quick ball or 1st phase. Its not like we didnt try to play. I remember a move off a line out with Stander and Leavy out in midfield and dummy runners all over the place. But they were too few and far between.

awec · 05-02-2018 12:13pm

Akrasia wrote: »

The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.

Who cares.

This is about as relevant as our past record against France, in that it's not relevant at all.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 12:20pm

pickarooney wrote: »

But by the same token this isn't the same team that lost to SA and drew with Japan. The management and players are completely different so those results are no more relevant than the last few years of the 6N.

Yes, spot on, it isn't. By the same token you're right. The whole point I'm making is that the token is really pretty useless.

kilns · 05-02-2018 12:20pm

awec wrote: »

Akrasia wrote: »

The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.

Who cares.

This is about as relevant as our past record against France, in that it's not relevant at all.

Whats relevant is that we won and are now on an long unbeaten run, as we have seen from England winning is a habit and we are building this mentality nicely.
The more drier the conditions you will see much more wide out rugby from Ireland but you got to earn to go wide first. For all his great attributes I dont think POM is the kind of player for that kind of game and may need to make way eventually for Conan to move to 8 and Stander to 6
NZ won a home world cup final falling over the line but nobody cared as they got the job done.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 12:24pm

Akrasia wrote: »

The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.

Ah come on, the Sexton kick to Earls came at a time where literally any slight error would have resulted in us losing the match.

There is absolutely no argument at all that we couldn't have tried something like this earlier in the game. Especially in a game where the breakdown is allowed to be a mess and France's defense around the fringes was immense. Not moving the ball around was our biggest mistake. Again, their tight 5 made as many tackles as our entire team, that shows exactly where we were playing and it was to our detriment.

No point comparing the game to England v Italy, at all.

Sangre · 05-02-2018 12:27pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

Might be a combination of the above but tactics are a massive part of it. Without fail against anyone decent in the 6N we resort to one out passes to try to just run through/over the other team. Yes it was a wet ball etc but it's no different to how we play when it's dry. It doesn't work very well.

We're not down for a single clean break against France. Wales and England will look at that performance and think they can and should beat us.

It was very reminiscent of the Scotland and Wales games where we had plenty of possession and territory but couldn't convert our chances. We seem to go into our shell when playing away from home.

awec · 05-02-2018 12:31pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Is that not normal enough though? Last year England scored 12 of their 16 against Italy and Scotland. It's incredibly normal to only manage a try, maybe 2 at most, against the better sides. We've had a few of games where we've failed to score any (France in Paris twice and Wales in Cardiff), but I don't think it's quite the big issue that people make out. We could do with improving there but we're not miles behind the curve by any means.

EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that on Englands last 2 visits to Ireland they have failed to score any tries.

No, not at all.

In the 2015/2016/2017 Six nations, the tries scored against France / Ireland / England / Wales by nation are:

Ireland - 6
Wales - 12
England - 18
France - 12

WeleaseWoderick · 05-02-2018 12:40pm

awec wrote: »

No, not at all.

In the 2015/2016/2017 Six nations, the tries scored against France / Ireland / England / Wales by nation are:

Ireland - 6
Wales - 12
England - 18
France - 12

Wouldn't that include the crazy Eng-Fra game on the last day of 2015 too though? England scored 7 that day and France scored 5.

Still not great from us overall though

sydthebeat · 05-02-2018 12:49pm

the big turning point in the game came in and around the 50 minute mark, we were battering away 10 meters out, 12 points to 3 up... when Furlong gets ripped and they kick down field (a note here... Murrays delivery to Furlong was incredibly slow, whether by design or by france slowing it down). Two minutes later sexton catches on our 22 and we set up for an exit.... twice however murray declined that option.... second crash ball and Leavy gets caught not releasing. It was an absolutely terrible penalty to give away, on our own 22, letting the get back into the game at 6 - 12

stephen_n · 05-02-2018 12:57pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I do wish I could jump on board and pretend it was all great and that no criticism is necessary, but that's not what I saw.

.

Total hyperbole, no one has suggested no criticism is necessary, not once. Just that any criticism needs to be tempered by reality.

Sangre · 05-02-2018 12:59pm

Did anyone else think Murray's distribution was below normal standards? A lot of players had to reach high for the ball or check their run. Very unlike him.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 1:00pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Total hyperbole, no one has suggested no criticism is necessary, not once. Just that any criticism needs to be tempered by reality.

Every criticism that has been made has been tempered by reality.

That's actual reality. Not the alternate universe where France weren't dominated in both possession and territory for 80 minutes and still managed to nearly beat us.

Buer · 05-02-2018 1:01pm

Sangre wrote: »

Did anyone else think Murray's distribution was below normal standards? A lot of players had to reach high for the ball or check their run. Very unlike him.

I don't think people are allowing enough leeway for just how sh*te the conditions were for passing. The rain was steadily pouring down. It makes that 41 phase effort all the more incredible

connemara man · 05-02-2018 1:11pm

Buer wrote: »

I don't think people are allowing enough leeway for just how sh*te the conditions were for passing. The rain was steadily pouring down. It makes that 41 phase effort all the more incredible

Why is rain used as an excuse. We're Irish. We train in the wet more than we play in it.

Buer · 05-02-2018 1:13pm

connemara man wrote: »

Why is rain used as an excuse. We're Irish. We train in the wet more than we play in it.

Being used to it doesn't make it a non-factor. We haven't evolved to have webbed fingers and sandpaper palms to better handle the ball. It is still just as slippy. It just gives us more exprience in how to manage those sort of conditions.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2018 1:18pm

Buer wrote: »

Being used to it doesn't make it a non-factor. We haven't evolved to have webbed fingers and sandpaper palms to better handle the ball. It is still just as slippy. It just gives us more exprience in how to manage those sort of conditions.

Eh, yes certainly rain was a big factor, but in the second half we played against the conditions if anything. Should have been playing short phase possessions and forcing France into playing the ball going backwards. Vakatawa and Thomas were there for us to go after. BOD actually also made this point this morning on the twitter-radio.

Schmidt has produced exactly that type of performance out of us as well, for Leinster and Ireland, so its even more disappointing for me that it didn't happen.

Akrasia · 05-02-2018 1:19pm

connemara man wrote: »

Why is rain used as an excuse. We're Irish. We train in the wet more than we play in it.

And what does all that experience teach us? That we should play expansive offloading rugby in slippery conditions?

Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

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