Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

OK, so maybe the French unit wasn't collectively enormous, but VdF and POM are not known for their ball-carrying, and Stander just doesn't seem to make the same impact carrying at International level as he does for Munster. All these players obviously have enormous positives elsewhere, but in terms of getting front-foot ball, and contracting the French defense, they just didn't make it happen on Saturday.

And which back row in the 6 Nations currently would be better than ours? Who were the sides last weekend with the big destructive ball carriers?

England were playing an overpromoted winger at number 8!

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And which back row in the 6 Nations currently would be better than ours? Who were the sides last weekend with the big destructive ball carriers?

England were playing an overpromoted winger at number 8!

And a lock at 6, AND against Italy.

I don't need to tell you that the better carriers are currently injured. Plus, I'm not cribbing about our selection, I'm just pointing out why we struggled to create and use space.

Skyfloater

I wasn't having a pop, it's just that in November someone mentioned that the SA pack was huge. Even though, our pack were heavier, if only by a tiny bit.

AbusesToilets

Neil3030 wrote: »

I reckon we are pretty much where we are, tbh, and there's not a whole lot we can do to improve our try-scoring from deep. Our backs are fine - particularly Earls and Stockdale; for example, you could imagine them scoring tries if you put them in the otherwise first choice England or Welsh sides. Our issue is that we lack the threat of a couple of big ball carriers, so we never really contract defenses or get front-foot ball. And thereafter, for all the good things Henshaw does, he really isn't a what you'd call a zippy distributer (as in, a Farrell or a Davies). So when England or Wales get a sniff, the ball can hit the flanks pronto, whereas we just take that split second too long. Not sure what I'd do to rectify it though - Ringrose in for Henshaw? Forget about Joey at 10, and develop him as a playmaking 15? Maybe Larmour at 15 will become the answer?

Just to add - we had a pretty lightweight back row at the weekend, which is why many thought Ryan got the nod over Toner. And France are massive, and were, for once organised. So maybe not the end of the world, all things considered.

We seem to be poor at manufacturing line breaks after a few planned phases. Get bogged down with static receivers or one out runners. Perhaps a greater emphasis on drawing the man and passing before contact would help. I feel like we are still struggling to overcome the difficulties that saw us camped on the Welsh line for 9000 phases a few years ago.

Zzippy

Not sure if it's been posted already, but here's Murray Kinsella's analysis of what went wrong for the French try.

NollagShona

Zzippy wrote: »

Not sure if it's been posted already, but here's Murray Kinsella's analysis of what went wrong for the French try.

Yes, yes it has.

Clegg

Neil3030 wrote: »

I reckon we are pretty much where we are, tbh, and there's not a whole lot we can do to improve our try-scoring from deep. Our backs are fine - particularly Earls and Stockdale; for example, you could imagine them scoring tries if you put them in the otherwise first choice England or Welsh sides. Our issue is that we lack the threat of a couple of big ball carriers, so we never really contract defenses or get front-foot ball. And thereafter, for all the good things Henshaw does, he really isn't a what you'd call a zippy distributer (as in, a Farrell or a Davies). So when England or Wales get a sniff, the ball can hit the flanks pronto, whereas we just take that split second too long. Not sure what I'd do to rectify it though - Ringrose in for Henshaw? Forget about Joey at 10, and develop him as a playmaking 15? Maybe Larmour at 15 will become the answer?

Just to add - we had a pretty lightweight back row at the weekend, which is why many thought Ryan got the nod over Toner. And France are massive, and were, for once organised. So maybe not the end of the world, all things considered.

Jonathan Davies is a brilliant rugby player, but passing is actually a weakness in his game. He's all about picking smart lines.

Bringing in Ringrose won't help the ball get to the back three sooner as he's as much a strike runner as Henshaw or Aki. But he has an outside break the others don't possess and is probably worth a place in the side for that alone. Inside centre is the position where could really use a better passing option. Scannell would be the best choice there but he's all round game isn't as strong as Aki's or Henshaw's.

Carbery would be an interesting choice at 12 or 15. He has the kicking and passing ability to get the most out of our back 3. Probably not big enough for 12 and I think his future is at 10 anyway. I've no idea if Larmour can be used as a second playmaking option. For now he's a strike runner/counterattacker.

For the moment we don't really have a second ballplayer with the all-round game to break into the side. Our best centres are Aki, Ringrose and Henshaw. None of whom are playmakers. At a pinch Carbery could be the second playmaker. The best rugby Leinster played last season involved him at 15 with Sexton at 10. He could drop in as first or second receiver and spray a quick, accurate pass to the wings. But it's clear Schmidt doesn't see him as a long term option at 15.

irishbucsfan

Davies is a very handy passer, he's had one or two poor passes in big games so people often say that its a weakness when it definitely is not. Better than any of our midfielders currently.

prawnsambo

Only back from Paris late last night and although I've followed this thread on and off, I've not really had time to make any contribution about the game.

We had pretty good seats, looking up the pitch slightly off centre of the posts that Jonny put the ball through for his DG. Strangely enough, it was hard to tell what the rain was like because we were under cover, but there was a pretty nasty breeze gusting around the stadium; was frozen towards the end, despite wearing multiple layers and lined trousers etc. I posted earlier about seeing the ball getting caught in a gust of wind and blown slightly off course as it was dropping, and it caught out our back three a few times where they had judged the flight and it moved at the last second. A few hit grass when they should have been caught. You could see it clearly from where we were sitting.

Also the surface must have been like an ice rink. I saw Rory Best snot himself running to join a maul early in the first half and that's what did all the knee injuries. Three knee injuries in one match was a huge attrition rate.

I've only watched the first ten minutes or so of the TV coverage, so my observations are based mainly on what I could see in the stadium; and often that was from a distance, so player identification wasn't always straightforward. Early on, we were getting quick ball and we made some fairly good inroads territory wise, but the French got a lot of leeway from Nigel at the breakdown and were able to slow our ball illegally without getting pinged. I know 'play the ref' is the answer to that, but you really can't do anything about that without some old fashioned rucking and those days are gone.

From our vantage point, those precious extra seconds slowing our ball was huge for the French defence. They were lined up like the chorus line at the Folies Bergeres for every phase and when we tried to go wide, we lost territory to their line speed. So it was one pass to change the point of attack, either close in or out further, but we were only getting small gains from this. People were suggesting a kick over the top, and I was watching for those kinds of opportunities, but the French sweepers and back three were covering space quickly. Keith Earls was very patient at times, hogging the tram line and signalling for the ball, but their defence were very quick to spot when he wasn't covered and were able to close that avenue off within seconds.

That being said, it was clear we didn't have enough penetration from our ball carriers. It needed somebody like Jack Conan to get that small half break and get their hands free for the offload to supporting runners. CJ is good at taking the ball into contact, and making a half yard or so, but it's ruck ball at the end and that was viande et patates for the French. Henderson was probably the best out there, but you need more than one. I also felt that Henshaw and Aki should have switched position more often because Henshaw is good at making those hard yards and getting the ball away and Aki has that little bit more of a step and offload to keep the ball alive.

The thing was that we weren't getting into their 22 enough to put them under pressure and force a mistake or a penalty. Any time we did, we got a result, but we also let some chances slip which is so unusual. Furlong getting turned over was huge for the French. You had to be there to feel the fear from the crowd as we got close to their line and they absolutely erupted when the penalty was given. It was a huge lift for the team, as was Teddy Thomas' try.

The French support was funny at times. Many seem not to know the basics. When we were going through the famous 41 phases, the clock turned red and there were supporters all around us going mad because they thought the game was over. They were absolutely hopping mad, it was hilarious. The drop goal was so good from our point of view because we were being completely drowned out by the French support and it was hard to stay positive. Sexton's 22 drop out to Henderson was unbelievable, I thought the game was over and we'd be defending for the last couple of minutes, but instead we had the ball and started to move up the pitch.

As always though, the French were so gracious in defeat. Shook our hands and complimented Sexton for his fearlessness. We found a tiny little 'spit on the floor' bar at the back of Bastille which had a chanteuse playing the guitar and who sang some 'whiskey in the jar' songs for us and when we were leaving, the barman gave us all a complimentary shot of aged Jameson for the road.

I love Paris.

Edit: My 2000th post :cool:

Buer

Damned statistics. The heaviest players in the Irish pack over recent years have been Mike Ross and Devin Toner. Massive lumps of men but absolutely not in the team for their ability to smash rucks or carry ball. Toner is excellent at winning possession and at securing ruck ball as second man or protecting the ruck but not exactly dynamic.

The French back row wasn't heavyweight at all. The front five was pretty meaty though but also had guys who could use that size and were quite dynamic around the park none more so than Guirado.

Leavy is an example of a guy who is far from the heaviest but uses speed and lines to get over the gain line repeatedly in carries. He was our most efficient carrier in the back row against France despite being the smallest of the three according to the IrishRugby.ie statistics.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

And a lock at 6, AND against Italy.

I don't need to tell you that the better carriers are currently injured. Plus, I'm not cribbing about our selection, I'm just pointing out why we struggled to create and use space.

Yeah, that's certainly fair. I wouldn't think we struggle because of a lack of big ball carriers at all. Certainly you would never turn down an incredible carrier who can create something out of nothing, although I think there's only one in the entire competition...

It's also fine to say that the ball was slow and that prevented us from going wide. That is entirely true. But that is something we have to have an answer for, because it can happen against any team with a decent pack and an organised defense (we used to do it to superior opponents, the Argies used to do it to us etc.).

If I was Wales, I'd be waste deep in videos of Glen Jackson right now. Because at the moment it really looks like we have a major weakness in our attacking game that can be exploited if you can work out a referee's blind spot.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, that's certainly fair. I wouldn't think we struggle because of a lack of big ball carriers at all. Certainly you would never turn down an incredible carrier who can create something out of nothing, although I think there's only one in the entire competition...

It's also fine to say that the ball was slow and that prevented us from going wide. That is entirely true. But that is something we have to have an answer for, because it can happen against any team with a decent pack and an organised defense (we used to do it to superior opponents, the Argies used to do it to us etc.).

If I was Wales, I'd be waste deep in videos of Glen Jackson right now. Because at the moment it really looks like we have a major weakness in our attacking game that can be exploited if you can work out a referee's blind spot.

It seems counter-intuitive to me that the change in the breakdown laws to benefit attacking teams can be negated so easily. Even in the first ten minutes of the TV coverage I watched, I could see prone French players with their hands on the ball in the ruck and Nigel giving them the hands away shout when in reality they were illegal and should have been pinged.

So, very early in the match, they had carte blanche to play the ball on the ground and knew they'd get a warning before getting pinged. Is it really likely that other refs will take the same view?

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

It seems counter-intuitive to me that the change in the breakdown laws to benefit attacking teams can be negated so easily. Even in the first ten minutes of the TV coverage I watched, I could see prone French players with their hands on the ball in the ruck and Nigel giving them the hands away shout when in reality they were illegal and should have been pinged.

So, very early in the match, they had carte blanche to play the ball on the ground and knew they'd get a warning before getting pinged. Is it really likely that other refs will take the same view?

Yes, there's plenty of refs who allow rucks to play out. Particularly French refs like Poite, Gauzere and Raynal. Guys like Wayne Barnes are much stricter mind you. We have Poite this weekend but I'm hopeful Italy won't be able to take advantage as much. Barnes against Scotland so that should suit us.

I'm not sure about Jackson (or Angus Gardner who is our England ref). Can't remember off the top of my head how those lads see things. I feel like they're stricter about it but the breakdown does go differently up here.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, there's plenty of refs who allow rucks to play out. Particularly French refs like Poite, Gauzere and Raynal. Guys like Wayne Barnes are much stricter mind you. We have Poite this weekend but I'm hopeful Italy won't be able to take advantage as much. Barnes against Scotland so that should suit us.

I'm not sure about Jackson (or Angus Gardner who is our England ref). Can't remember off the top of my head how those lads see things. I feel like they're stricter about it but the breakdown does go differently up here.

Angus gardner is a good ref. he typically doesnt allow slowing the ball down and his games tend to be fast paced and open.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Angus gardner is a good ref. he typically doesnt allow slowing the ball down and his games tend to be fast paced and open.

Yeah, that's good.

But then again, maybe we want the breakdown to be a mess in Twickenham...

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, that's good.

But then again, maybe we want the breakdown to be a mess in Twickenham...

nah, were going to score 9 tries against them, all coming from intricate back line moves, all finished off by the fast messiah who becomes the first player in history to score a triple hat trick.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

nah, were going to score 9 tries against them, all coming from intricate back line moves, all finished off by the fast messiah who becomes the first player in history to score a triple hat trick.

I hope you're not trying to claim that we have a slow messiah!? :eek:

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

I hope you're not trying to claim that we have a slow messiah!? :eek:

nah, we just need to differentiate between the fast messiah and the tall messiah.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I hope you're not trying to claim that we have a slow messiah!? :eek:

You likely missed this in all the baby-madness but we have a Fast Messiah, Tall Messiah and Squat Messiah

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You likely missed this in all the baby-madness but we have a Fast Messiah, Tall Messiah and Squat Messiah

aka The Holy Trinity

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

nah, we just need to differentiate between the fast messiah and the tall messiah.

As you were so.

NollagShona

https://twitter.com/the1014rugby/status/960810375133319168

Buer

That's incredible from Stander after 80 minutes. Whatever people say about his impact at test level, his work rate and fitness is unrecognisable from the guy who first started playing for Munster and even Ireland.

Similar from Toner but he should be hitting good numbers given his relative freshness. I'm still always impressed at his ability to make ruck after ruck when you're 6'10" though.

Henderson another with huge numbers after 80 minutes and carrying a large frame around the field.

Zzippy

Buer wrote: »

Similar from Toner but he should be hitting good numbers given his relative freshness. I'm still always impressed at his ability to make ruck after ruck when you're 6'10" though.

Sure with legs that long it's like a 5-a-side pitch to him!

The Rape of Lucretia

NollagShona wrote: »

https://twitter.com/the1014rugby/status/960810375133319168

Shows up Leavy as a lazy git.

wp_rathead

Buer wrote: »

Henderson another with huge numbers after 80 minutes and carrying a large frame around the field.

The stats from Henderson are pretty incredible - including the catch from the 22 and the extra roll he managed to win in the 38th or so Phase
A top player

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Shows up Leavy as a lazy git.

Not sure if this is tongue in cheek but you've made some weird posts about Leavy in the past, it's as if you have something personal against him. What's the craic there?

iroced

Long time I haven't posted in here...

Just wanted to say: thank you thank you thank you Mister Jonathan Sexton !


I'm rooting and hoping for a 5 defeats campaign for Les Bleus after Bernard Laporte and Serge Simon Machfiavelian behaviour.

I was full of hope when he became president of the FFR despite knowing his politician side. But oh dear I wasn't expecting this :mad:. He has so much saucepans hanging down his arse he can't even sit :rolleyes:. Excuse my French think it means he's having many skeletons in the closet.

Anyway, he's done nothing for reforming French rugby so far but yeah he signed contracts and used lobbies to get the WC at home :rolleyes:. And he fired Novès to make it a premiere and disgustingly put all the blame on him for our bad results :eek: :mad:. Lièvremont failed but made the WC final with a misunderstanding. Saint André failed. Novès failed. And no one ever questions above? The seats are too comfortable right?! A federation full of "elephants" (both sense). Laporte was supposed to change that. With Serge Simon in control from behind he managed to do worse! That is quite some achievement.

So c'mon Scotland! C'mon Italy! C'mon England! And c'mon Wales! Ireland showed you the way. I feel deeply sorry for our players who do not deserve it but if we want to improve one day, we ab-so-lu-te-ly NEED the wooden spoon this year to stoip this farcically corrupted presidency! Making money while in charge! Bravo Bernard Simon or Serge Laporte! You make me vomit!

irishbucsfan

Can someone please explain this metaphor, its... beautiful

He has so much saucepans hanging down his arse he can't even sit

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can someone please explain this metaphor, its... beautiful

This one is jacoism standard!