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Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

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Comments

  • #1002
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Are you referring to him pinging McGrath? That was a different situation - one where we were ahead, and were trying to kill off the game. But again, it falls under his general philosophy of interpreting the laws in a way that encourages teams to play rugby. So if you're behind, and need a penalty, it needs to be clear cut; if you're ahead and need to recycle a few times to kill off the game, you better be squeaky clean.

    I'm not saying he's right, or wrong, just that he is consistent once you factor in the context, and teams should (and I suspect do) know that.

    There was some obvious penalties to be given to Ireland in that final phase of play..

    But that doesn't really matter now


  • #1003
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Let's all take a moment to appreciate Lamerat's lolariously premature celebration:

    440670.png


  • #1004
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    It surprised me greatly that Vahaamahina managed to get pinged 4 times for pretty much the same infringement and yet didn’t get a card. You’d almost expect a team card for that, but for one player to do it consistently it should lead to a card.


  • #1005
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Okay guys we're straying off topic here. Try to limit the discussion to the game itself.


  • #1006
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    .ak wrote: »
    Okay guys we're straying off topic here. Try to limit the discussion to the game itself.
    Could we move these posts to the laws thread?
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055520903&page=4

    MOD: Done


  • #1007
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I’ll never understand how anyone can say that Ireland were lucky to win that game. Sure France missed a penalty to take it out to 4 points, but we’d missed one earlier ourselves so the two pretty much cancel each other out. Besides that Ireland dominated territory and possession (about 3:1), we had the better set piece, we were better at ruck time and we led for 70 minutes of the game. France got a breakaway try scored through an individual, not a team effort, to put them in the lead when they had never looked like getting in front at all up to that point. They held the lead for just 10 minutes all game. Where exactly can anyone look to in order to come to the conclusion that we were lucky to win that!? I’m genuinely baffled at that opinion.


  • #1008
    Bridge93
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Yeah it was a game deserved to win but could have no complaints had we lost


  • #1009
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Yeah it was a game deserved to win but could have no complaints had we lost

    I wish! :(


  • #1010
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Yeah it was a game deserved to win but could have no complaints had we lost

    I’d agree with that, contradictory though it may sound. We never put the game away and as such <cliche alert> gave a sucker an even break. But we were the better team and leading for almost 90% of the game was a fair reflection of what was happening on the pitch.


  • #1011
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Isabelle still won though right?

    2371783-isabelle-ithurburu-soiree-des-animateu-950x0-2.jpg


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  • #1012
    mangobob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭mangobob


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I’ll never understand how anyone can say that Ireland were lucky to win that game. Sure France missed a penalty to take it out to 4 points, but we’d missed one earlier ourselves so the two pretty much cancel each other out. Besides that Ireland dominated territory and possession (about 3:1), we had the better set piece, we were better at ruck time and we led for 70 minutes of the game. France got a breakaway try scored through an individual, not a team effort, to put them in the lead when they had never looked like getting in front at all up to that point. They held the lead for just 10 minutes all game. Where exactly can anyone look to in order to come to the conclusion that we were lucky to win that!? I’m genuinely baffled at that opinion.

    Look I am absolutely over the moon that we won, and it took me hours to come down off the high of that last four minutes of sheer fupping epicness. As I have said on another site, it was a piece of skill for the ages. I simply cannot say enough great things about it.

    But that shouldn't mask the fact that we got out of there with a win by the skin of our teeth against a side that we were rightly expected to dominate. It was in some ways quite a flawed performance. We were worryingly blunt in attack, never even looked like scoring a try and we failed to put France away after 65 odd minutes of controlling the match. As a team we were vastly more settled and experienced, with a far superior coach and tremendous strength in depth. The French fielded a team with a 19 year old fly half making his first appearance, a raft of unfamiliar combinations, a bench with a combined total of 16 caps (vs 200 odd on ours) and were playing their very first 6 Nations game under a coach whose resume is vastly inferior to ours. The conditions are no excuse, as they were the same for both sides. It should never have been that close.

    The fact is that in the end, we got out of jail BIG TIME and yes luck most certainly played a part in it. Johnny missed a crucial penalty. Then Belleau missed a sitter. Those two events have no relation to each other. Just because one happened, doesn't mean the other must happen to cancel it out. They are totally independent, and it was sheer luck that the French player chosen to kick missed it. We also got lucky that Machenaud wasn't the one kicking it, because you can bet your house on it that he would have got it. Its also fair to say that several of those French penalties were unforced, so a significant portion of our points were gifts.

    All of the positives you stated about Ireland's performance are true. But acknowledging that we got lucky isn't diminishing what we achieved out there. Its simply being honest. In every close game you need a little luck, whether that means little things going for you at crucial times or at the very least not going against you when they could have. Its like the infamous loss to the All Blacks in Dublin. The AB's were lucky to win that. How? They got lucky in the sense that Nigel gave them a very kind decision at a crucial time, and then they got lucky again that Luke Fitzgerald charged the missed conversion too early giving them another chance to win it instead of simply drawing. But that doesn't diminish in any way how incredible their last play was, as they still needed the skill and the composure to capitalise on it.

    Saying that Ireland were the better team and yet still were lucky to win is not a contradiction. Its simply the nature of sport.


  • #1013
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    We should have brought Carbery on to close out the game


  • #1014
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    mangobob wrote: »
    Look I am absolutely over the moon that we won, and it took me hours to come down off the high of that last four minutes of sheer fupping epicness. As I have said on another site, it was a piece of skill for the ages. I simply cannot say enough great things about it.

    But that shouldn't mask the fact that we got out of there with a win by the skin of our teeth against a side that we were rightly expected to dominate. It was in some ways quite a flawed performance. We were worryingly blunt in attack, never even looked like scoring a try and we failed to put France away after 65 odd minutes of controlling the match. As a team we were vastly more settled and experienced, with a far superior coach and tremendous strength in depth. The French fielded a team with a 19 year old fly half making his first appearance, a raft of unfamiliar combinations, a bench with a combined total of 16 caps (vs 200 odd on ours) and were playing their very first 6 Nations game under a coach whose resume is vastly inferior to ours. The conditions are no excuse, as they were the same for both sides. It should never have been that close.

    The fact is that in the end, we got out of jail BIG TIME and yes luck most certainly played a part in it. Johnny missed a crucial penalty. Then Belleau missed a sitter. Those two events have no relation to each other. Just because one happened, doesn't mean the other must happen to cancel it out. They are totally independent, and it was sheer luck that the French player chosen to kick missed it. We also got lucky that Machenaud wasn't the one kicking it, because you can bet your house on it that he would have got it. Its also fair to say that several of those French penalties were unforced, so a significant portion of our points were gifts.

    All of the positives you stated about Ireland's performance are true. But acknowledging that we got lucky isn't diminishing what we achieved out there. Its simply being honest. In every close game you need a little luck, whether that means little things going for you at crucial times or at the very least not going against you when they could have. Its like the infamous loss to the All Blacks in Dublin. The AB's were lucky to win that. How? They got lucky in the sense that Nigel gave them a very kind decision at a crucial time, and then they got lucky again that Luke Fitzgerald charged the missed conversion too early giving them another chance to win it instead of simply drawing. But that doesn't diminish in any way how incredible their last play was, as they still needed the skill and the composure to capitalise on it.

    Saying that Ireland were the better team and yet still were lucky to win is not a contradiction. Its simply the nature of sport.

    We’re royally into semantics here now I reckon. I suppose it all depends on the context of the posts when people use the word “lucky”. As you describe it above I’d probably agree. Similar to my last post where I agreed with Bridge93.

    Some people have been using it in the context of “we never should have won it, we robbed the French and we were lucky to do so”. That is really the point I was addressing. France could have considered themselves incredibly lucky had they won it. They stayed in touch for most of the game, not always legally. And then a moment of individual brilliance turned things. It wasn’t a planned move or one that they earned by building pressure etc. They never looked like getting on top before that. Much like people were saying we struggled to break them down, they struggled to break us down. Even more than we did.

    We were the better team in pretty much every way. We also gave them that even break I mentioned with our difficulties converting our pressure into points. We seem to always have 1 game each Championship where we have that issue. Remember Wales last year? We had it in the first game this year which we won and can now spend the next few weeks addressing those issues. I don’t doubt that we will.


  • #1015
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I thought we played the first half really, really well. It wasn't expansive but we were very successful in forcing France to start with the ball in their own half and we proved they were totally incapable of threatening from there. The mistakes they made there helped us dominate that first half. The only 3 they got were from a silly error that we made but that can always happen.

    If the 2nd half we completely lost control of the game though and we were outscored 10-3 until that magical bit of play at the end. That is really poor. I could totally accept no line breaks in the first half while we were containing France and taking our shots, but in the 2nd half we should never have lost control of the game (through our own errors, many unforced) and we should have taken our opportunities. It wasn't the referees fault, it wasn't that we were out-committed by some magical French force, we just lost control.

    We didn't necessarily win the game through luck, it was a quality performance in the end to win the game, but in the end we played way beneath ourselves.


  • #1016
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Ok so I love the optimism of Irish fans but really some of the posts on here are deluded. How many times have we won in France?

    I had a quick look at the team that last won in France. Out of the starting 15 we had 7 players left and one of those(Toner) was a sub. So for a lot of those players they have never won in France. Some never even played against France or in France......

    Ireland: R Kearney; Trimble(gone), O'Driscoll(gone), D'Arcy(gone), D Kearney(gone); Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Ross(gone), Toner(sub), O'Connell(gone), O'Mahony, Henry(gone), Heaslip(gone).

    The weather was shocking and exactly what the French wanted. It turned the match into a battle of the front row and the French front row isn't too bad. Rugby is the national sport in France, they have 14 professional clubs to pick from and they have the largest budget in the World.

    Anyone with knowledge of the game said before the match we should win on paper but a number of unknowns. One of the major ones was the French team had a new coach, had a number of weeks together before the match and the weather. It was called out 3-4 days before the match it would be soaking wet. I don't know how many "reviews" I have seen and not one mentions the weather. They put the camera up into the sky and showed it lashing rain so I don't know how people missed it.....

    If you watch the Top 14 then you will know each match is a slugfest, front row and scrums. The french love it, what happened on Saturday was exactly that so it suited the French. Also do you actually think they would roll over and let Ireland hammer them.

    Lets take some history
    2012 Draw
    2013 Draw
    2014 Ireland win by 2
    2015 Ireland win by 7
    2016 France win by 1
    2017 Ireland win by 10

    Don't see many hammerings going on do you?

    All of those games you can the French team was in worse situation, they had to go back to Top 14, didn't have time in camp etc. So why would anyone think this was gong to be a walk in the park?

    Give it 2 months, a nice sunny day in Paris and put the same Irish team out and see what a difference a dry pitch


  • #1017
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Ok so I love the optimism of Irish fans but really some of the posts on here are deluded. How many times have we won in France?

    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.


  • #1018
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Even if you look at the French home losses over the last few years, they generally only lose by a score. NZ beat them by 20 points in November, but that was a complete outlier. For the record, my take on the game on Friday was:
    molloyjh wrote: »
    Maybe they perform really well? It's highly unlikely, but the thing with the French is that it's not utterly unheard of that they buck the trend of recent form to beat a team that are favoured by all and sundry. There are some very talented individuals in that side let's not forget.

    The weather is meant to be a bit crappy tomorrow as well. I don't think that will help us as it could see the game being dragged into a bit of a dogfight, like 2 years ago. And any low scoring game in the 6Ns can go either way. They just need to be stubborn and dogged and they can stay in the game, which is all they'll need up to the last 10. Personally I'd prefer a clear, dry day where we can look to play a bit more.

    Still though, we are rightly favourites for this. If we turn up and deliver even 90% of what we're capable of we should win.

    I don't think we managed to get close to 90% of our potential so in reality the result is probably not far off what I would have envisaged. We have a lot of areas to improve on, but I for one an delighted that people are not simply happy with winning in Paris. It shows where this team is that we expect as much as we do from them.


  • #1019
    Camilo Creamy Flame
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Camilo Creamy Flame


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Ok so I love the optimism of Irish fans but really some of the posts on here are deluded. How many times have we won in France?

    I don't really care how many times we've won in France. When you look at the players we had out on the pitch, a team full of extremely talented players who have been performing for their provinces, the team did not show up as the sum of its parts. I find that a bit disappointing. We can be much better than that.


  • #1020
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.

    They haven’t been one of the better teams in the last 10 years, they have been getting progressively worse, but have been bad and yet we still struggle against them. Any team that can successfully slow down our ball, will cause us problems. Much as you are willing to ignore it, the weather made that eminently easier for the French on Saturday. Add to that the inability to analyze and prepare for them it was never going to be easy. We play structured rugby, with lots of focus on analysis and research. How could that have been done for Saturday?


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  • #1021
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.

    We have a great record at home against the Boks so how can you point to that game?

    France have been a mess for years and we never got the better of them. Hence why I posted the history.

    France hadn't won in November and sacked the coaching team, yes if the old coaching team was still in place that might be argument but they have gone. Also note the last time Ireland got rid of a coach mid World Cup cycle the following two 6 nations they won it.

    Many a great Irish team has gone to France with lots written about them, except for 2 times those teams have been sent home with tail between their legs.....


  • #1022
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Joslyn Tender Sucker wrote: »
    I don't really care how many times we've won in France. When you look at the players we had out on the pitch, a team full of extremely talented players who have been performing for their provinces, the team did not show up as the sum of its parts. I find that a bit disappointing. We can be much better than that.

    Of course we can do better, as I said put them on a dry pitch and see what the result is.....

    Doesn't matter how many talented players you have on a pitch if the ball is like a bar of soap and the rain is lashing down.....


  • #1023
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    We have a great record at home against the Boks so how can you point to that game?

    France have been a mess for years and we never got the better of them. Hence why I posted the history.

    France hadn't won in November and sacked the coaching team, yes if the old coaching team was still in place that might be argument but they have gone. Also note the last time Ireland got rid of a coach mid World Cup cycle the following two 6 nations they won it.

    Many a great Irish team has gone to France with lots written about them, except for 2 times those teams have been sent home with tail between their legs.....

    So the fact they've completely changed their coaching staff a month before the first game is supposed to make them a better team?

    This is just silly talk to me. It's the same type of thing as the Babe Ruth curse or whatever else. It was a game of rugby between two sides, one of which is far superior.

    And if France had actually put it up to us then maybe it would point so some hint of you being right here, but they didn't. Ireland had 70% possession and 72% territory in the first half, we completely dominated them, because they're far inferior to us. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what the score was between Ireland and France in 2004 or 2006.

    We just weren't capable of capitalising on our dominance. Guirado's 31 tackle performance was extremely impressive. But when France's tight 5 combined for the same number of tackles that the entire Irish team made, it goes a long way to showing why a team who dominated possession failed to make a single clean break over 80 minutes. Sexton's kick to Earls was fantastic, and an example of exactly what we should have been doing as soon as it became clear we weren't going to get anywhere with phase play.


  • #1024
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Some people I guess are never happy but the most important thing is start the championship with a win, no matter what.  Some people seem to think no matter what the conditions you can just play free flowing rugby.  Also, the first thing any new coach worth their salt would do is work on a teams defence as it is the easiest and quickest thing to get right.  I am sure France have worked mostly on that and had hoped for breaks throughout the game to get the win.  Their defence was very impressive in many aspects, from the line  to their back 3 covering the kicking space to their maul defence.
    If we are going to Twickenham for a Grand Slam decider no one will recall that we didnt play lovely on the eye rugby in the first away win.  During Englands run over the last 2 years how many times did they win ugly and were praised for their winning mentality, we showed we are up their with the best now when we can come down the field and do what need to, just like what the All Blacks did to us a few years ago.
    There are times and places for flowing rugby and we will see it this championship but Paris on Saturday was not it, due to the weather and Nigel Owens mostly.
    I expect a few changes for Italy however, I suspect Stockdale could make way for Lamour, OMahoney could be make way for Conan at 8, and Leavy will come in at 7.


  • #1025
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Interesting article in the times this morning.

    Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

    We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

    I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.


  • #1026
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    My complaints are nothing to do with free flowing rugby, to be clear.

    I do wish I could jump on board and pretend it was all great and that no criticism is necessary, but that's not what I saw.

    And absolutely if we win a grand slam Noone will care even slightly about the nature of this victory. But we should still remember it and work on preventing it in future. Just as we should have done in 2009 given our dire performance against England when we limped to victory. Doing that in the cold light of day, maybe a few days after is just a part of being a mature, successful, organisation.


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  • #1027
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    My complaints are nothing to do with free flowing rugby, to be clear.

    I do wish I could jump on board and pretend it was all great and that no criticism is necessary, but that's not what I saw.

    And absolutely if we win a grand slam Noone will care even slightly about the nature of this victory. But we should still remember it and work on preventing it in future. Just as we should have done in 2009 given our dire performance against England when we limped to victory. Doing that in the cold light of day, maybe a few days after is just a part of being a mature, successful, organisation.

    Yes the free flowing rugby thing is a complete red herring.

    Wanting to see us turn possession into tries at a rate greater than what we do does not mean we want to see us playing like the Harlem globetrotters.


  • #1028
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    So the fact they've completely changed their coaching staff a month before the first game is supposed to make them a better team?

    This is just silly talk to me. It's the same type of thing as the Babe Ruth curse or whatever else. It was a game of rugby between two sides, one of which is far superior.

    And if France had actually put it up to us then maybe it would point so some hint of you being right here, but they didn't. Ireland had 70% possession and 72% territory in the first half, we completely dominated them, because they're far inferior to us. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what the score was between Ireland and France in 2004 or 2006.

    We just weren't capable of capitalising on our dominance. Guirado's 31 tackle performance was extremely impressive. But when France's tight 5 combined for the same number of tackles that the entire Irish team made, it goes a long way to showing why a team who dominated possession failed to make a single clean break over 80 minutes. Sexton's kick to Earls was fantastic, and an example of exactly what we should have been doing as soon as it became clear we weren't going to get anywhere with phase play.

    The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

    France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

    Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.


  • #1029
    Camilo Creamy Flame
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Camilo Creamy Flame


    awec wrote: »
    Interesting article in the times this morning.

    Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

    We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

    I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

    Might be a combination of the above but tactics are a massive part of it. Without fail against anyone decent in the 6N we resort to one out passes to try to just run through/over the other team. Yes it was a wet ball etc but it's no different to how we play when it's dry. It doesn't work very well.

    We're not down for a single clean break against France. Wales and England will look at that performance and think they can and should beat us.


  • #1030
    Bazzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Akrasia wrote: »

    France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

    This is a bit misleading though isn't it? Haven't most of their home 6 nations openers been against Italy and Scotland?


  • #1031
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    awec wrote: »
    Interesting article in the times this morning.

    Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

    We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

    I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.
    Would be interesting to see how many tries were scored against us in the same period by England, France and Wales.  The six nations are never high try scoring affairs amongst the top teams apart from that freak game between England and France a few years ago


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  • #1032
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.

    But by the same token this isn't the same team that lost to SA and drew with Japan. The management and players are completely different so those results are no more relevant than the last few years of the 6N.


  • #1033
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

    This is what I thought of it too. Kick us out to 9 points in front before going for the jugular, as playing open rugby can lead to an interception run in for a try. At least with the cushion, a try against doesn't give away the lead.

    That was the plan, but as we know it didn't work out. France, while not a great side right now, are no slouches, and are always more potent at home than maybe they are given credit for.

    Did France play well, no. Did Ireland play well, no. Did Ireland somehow get the result, yes. That's how it goes sometimes. We can only hope that the coaching staff and the players get over the performance quickly, settle down, and show some improvement over the next couple of weeks, or then we can start calling Ireland as being one dimensional and not good enough.


  • #1034
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Interesting article in the times this morning.

    Since 2014 Ireland have scored 37 tries in the Six Nations. 31 of these have been against Italy and Scotland.

    We will dispatch of poor tier two sides with ease, hammer the poor six nations teams and get big results in one off Autumn games. But as of yet we haven’t cracked the nut on how to develop a cutting edge against the good six nations side, and turn possession into points consistently.

    I don’t know what the problem is. Maybe it’s the tactics, maybe the players aren’t as good as we think, maybe it’s a mental issue. We never have a problem getting ourselves up for individual big matches that we target, but we don’t seem capable of stringing 5 clinical performances back to back.

    Is that not normal enough though? Last year England scored 12 of their 16 against Italy and Scotland. It's incredibly normal to only manage a try, maybe 2 at most, against the better sides. We've had a few of games where we've failed to score any (France in Paris twice and Wales in Cardiff), but I don't think it's quite the big issue that people make out. We could do with improving there but we're not miles behind the curve by any means.

    EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that on Englands last 2 visits to Ireland they have failed to score any tries.


  • #1035
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    What needs to be accounted for when a team wishes to play a more expansive game and stretch the opposition is the referee and how they patrol the breakdown.  Owens was poor in that aspect on Saturday and allowed France lie all over the ball preventing quick ball, as we actually looked good when we did get quick ball or 1st phase.  Its not like we didnt try to play.  I remember a move off a line out with Stander and Leavy out in midfield and dummy runners all over the place.  But they were too few and far between.


  • #1036
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

    France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

    Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.
    Who cares.

    This is about as relevant as our past record against France, in that it's not relevant at all.


  • #1037
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    pickarooney wrote: »
    But by the same token this isn't the same team that lost to SA and drew with Japan. The management and players are completely different so those results are no more relevant than the last few years of the 6N.

    Yes, spot on, it isn't. By the same token you're right. The whole point I'm making is that the token is really pretty useless.


  • #1038
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    awec wrote: »
    Akrasia wrote: »
    The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

    France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

    Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.
    Who cares.

    This is about as relevant as our past record against France, in that it's not relevant at all.
    Whats relevant is that we won and are now on an long unbeaten run, as we have seen from England winning is a habit and we are building this mentality nicely.
    The more drier the conditions you will see much more wide out rugby from Ireland but you got to earn to go wide first.  For all his great attributes I dont think POM is the kind of player for that kind of game and may need to make way eventually for Conan to move to 8 and Stander to 6
    NZ won a home world cup final falling over the line but nobody cared as they got the job done.


  • #1039
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The Sexton to earls kick was a low percentage play that is just as likely to result in a counter attack than a try for Ireland, Ireland played the conditions, our game plan was probably to keep it tight until we were at least 7 points up and then take some more risks to open up the game. Unfortunately the French were more dogged than most gave them credit for, and one or two heroic performances lifted them and kept them in the game.

    France never lost a home 6 nations opener before, they are always up for it at home and they have the calibre of players to stifle the gameplan of any opposition on their day.

    Compare this with England's performance, they cut loose at the end but for 60 minutes they were in a real dogfight with a team made up mostly of players playing for the 2 worst clubs in European professional rugby, and a Welsh team who beat Scotland who seemed unable to string more than 10 phases together without an unforced error.

    Ah come on, the Sexton kick to Earls came at a time where literally any slight error would have resulted in us losing the match.

    There is absolutely no argument at all that we couldn't have tried something like this earlier in the game. Especially in a game where the breakdown is allowed to be a mess and France's defense around the fringes was immense. Not moving the ball around was our biggest mistake. Again, their tight 5 made as many tackles as our entire team, that shows exactly where we were playing and it was to our detriment.

    No point comparing the game to England v Italy, at all.


  • #1040
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,179 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Joslyn Tender Sucker wrote: »
    Might be a combination of the above but tactics are a massive part of it. Without fail against anyone decent in the 6N we resort to one out passes to try to just run through/over the other team. Yes it was a wet ball etc but it's no different to how we play when it's dry. It doesn't work very well.

    We're not down for a single clean break against France. Wales and England will look at that performance and think they can and should beat us.

    It was very reminiscent of the Scotland and Wales games where we had plenty of possession and territory but couldn't convert our chances. We seem to go into our shell when playing away from home.


  • #1041
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Is that not normal enough though? Last year England scored 12 of their 16 against Italy and Scotland. It's incredibly normal to only manage a try, maybe 2 at most, against the better sides. We've had a few of games where we've failed to score any (France in Paris twice and Wales in Cardiff), but I don't think it's quite the big issue that people make out. We could do with improving there but we're not miles behind the curve by any means.

    EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that on Englands last 2 visits to Ireland they have failed to score any tries.
    No, not at all.

    In the 2015/2016/2017 Six nations, the tries scored against France / Ireland / England / Wales by nation are:

    Ireland - 6
    Wales - 12
    England - 18
    France - 12


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  • #1042
    WeleaseWoderick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭WeleaseWoderick


    awec wrote: »
    No, not at all.

    In the 2015/2016/2017 Six nations, the tries scored against France / Ireland / England / Wales by nation are:

    Ireland - 6
    Wales - 12
    England - 18
    France - 12

    Wouldn't that include the crazy Eng-Fra game on the last day of 2015 too though? England scored 7 that day and France scored 5.

    Still not great from us overall though


  • #1043
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the big turning point in the game came in and around the 50 minute mark, we were battering away 10 meters out, 12 points to 3 up... when Furlong gets ripped and they kick down field (a note here... Murrays delivery to Furlong was incredibly slow, whether by design or by france slowing it down). Two minutes later sexton catches on our 22 and we set up for an exit.... twice however murray declined that option.... second crash ball and Leavy gets caught not releasing. It was an absolutely terrible penalty to give away, on our own 22, letting the get back into the game at 6 - 12


  • #1044
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    irishbucsfan wrote: »

    I do wish I could jump on board and pretend it was all great and that no criticism is necessary, but that's not what I saw.

    .



    Total hyperbole, no one has suggested no criticism is necessary, not once. Just that any criticism needs to be tempered by reality.


  • #1045
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,179 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Did anyone else think Murray's distribution was below normal standards? A lot of players had to reach high for the ball or check their run. Very unlike him.


  • #1046
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Total hyperbole, no one has suggested no criticism is necessary, not once. Just that any criticism needs to be tempered by reality.

    Every criticism that has been made has been tempered by reality.

    That's actual reality. Not the alternate universe where France weren't dominated in both possession and territory for 80 minutes and still managed to nearly beat us.


  • #1047
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Sangre wrote: »
    Did anyone else think Murray's distribution was below normal standards? A lot of players had to reach high for the ball or check their run. Very unlike him.

    I don't think people are allowing enough leeway for just how sh*te the conditions were for passing. The rain was steadily pouring down. It makes that 41 phase effort all the more incredible


  • #1048
    connemara man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭connemara man


    Buer wrote: »
    I don't think people are allowing enough leeway for just how sh*te the conditions were for passing. The rain was steadily pouring down. It makes that 41 phase effort all the more incredible

    Why is rain used as an excuse. We're Irish. We train in the wet more than we play in it.


  • #1049
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    connemara man wrote: »
    Why is rain used as an excuse. We're Irish. We train in the wet more than we play in it.

    Being used to it doesn't make it a non-factor. We haven't evolved to have webbed fingers and sandpaper palms to better handle the ball. It is still just as slippy. It just gives us more exprience in how to manage those sort of conditions.


  • #1050
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Buer wrote: »
    Being used to it doesn't make it a non-factor. We haven't evolved to have webbed fingers and sandpaper palms to better handle the ball. It is still just as slippy. It just gives us more exprience in how to manage those sort of conditions.

    Eh, yes certainly rain was a big factor, but in the second half we played against the conditions if anything. Should have been playing short phase possessions and forcing France into playing the ball going backwards. Vakatawa and Thomas were there for us to go after. BOD actually also made this point this morning on the twitter-radio.

    Schmidt has produced exactly that type of performance out of us as well, for Leinster and Ireland, so its even more disappointing for me that it didn't happen.


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  • #1051
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    connemara man wrote: »
    Why is rain used as an excuse. We're Irish. We train in the wet more than we play in it.

    And what does all that experience teach us? That we should play expansive offloading rugby in slippery conditions?


This discussion has been closed.
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