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Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

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    #992
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,483 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Just off the phone to Johnny Sexton, Swiwi. He says that it was our double headed thread that inspired his drop goal :pac:

    I'll have whatever you're smoking :p

    'Twas an excellent last 5 minutes or so by Ireland, and especially Sexton. Didn't think I'd see better than NZ vs Ire in 2013, but given the falling rain, that was probably an even better effort. With 3 home games now, Ireland are a real chance to be heading to Twickenham for a grand slam.

    On the downside, I'm not going to hide that I was mighty disappointed by the attack from Ireland in the previous 75 minutes. I genuinely expected better, especially as the game plan played right into France's hands. If the French lock hadn't been so profligate with the penalties, I'm not sure where Ireland's points would have come from. The main area I would look at is the back-row, I don't think in the end that POM or Stander improved on their provincial form. Someone more knowledgable than me suggested 6 Stander 7 Leavy 8 Murphy for Italy.

    Still, the last 5 minutes really were top shelf stuff, the DG was a beauty, but my oh my it doesn't take balls of steel, it takes balls of a titanium-tungsten alloy to try that cross-kick to Earls...and nail it.


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    #993
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,344 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Mark Pougatch & the analysis team were discussing last night's win on ITV HD before the Italy vs England match. Both Wilkinson & Di Laggio were both smiling their heads off in the studio when talking about Sexton's DG at their coverage in Rome.


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    #994
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Adamocovic wrote: »
    Always just been a lurker of the rugby threads on boards, but after yesterday just have to post something.

    Rights, apologies, I'll slip back into my lurking nature, and leave the analysis to those with a better knowledge of the game.

    Stick around cause to be fair most of us haven't a notion what's going on half the time either!!


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    #995
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Rezident wrote: »
    He is one of the best refs in the world, i love watching him ref anyone else, as he is frequently excellent and entertaining and yet every time he refs an irleand game he gets clear calls - massive game changing calls - shockingly wrong. And they always seem to go against ireland. He was doing everything in his power to avoid giving a penalty against france at the end of the game there, no matter what they did. Plus all the other big decisions that would have decided the game, had it not been for that ridiculous kick by sexton at the death.

    Watch it again, your eyes will be drawn to sexton's face as he watches the ball fly towards the posts but instead look at the look on nigel owens' face, that is not the look of an independent referee, he had skin in the game. He looks personally invested in it.

    Hmmm something to think about. Perhaps its all just a long sequence of unbelievably unlikely coincidences.

    He doesn't tend to be bias, but if a team are getting his attention too much, he does show it. Earlier on in the game he did tell Sexton to get away from him. I think he just really loves the game and if anything he showed appreciation for what was needed to lay up that drop goal and get it. He is a fan of the sport after all...


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    #996
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    I wouldnt worry about the integrity of the refs - its an impossible job, and error easily mistaken for bias.

    I would worry about the integrity of French rugby though. After last years shenanigans in the Wales game, I would consider them now shameless cheats in their abuse of the Hia. This must be cut out quickly and definitevely. A harsh sanction must be imposed on them for yesterday before it becomes a regular feature of the game and pays of for some tean to win an undeserved game or championship.


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    #997
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Some bizarre ratings on Rugbyrama.
    Palis gets 2/10. I thought he had a fine game.
    Most of the team get between 2 and 4.


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    #998
    gooch2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭gooch2k9


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Some bizarre ratings on Rugbyrama.
    Palis gets 2/10. I thought he had a fine game.
    Most of the team get between 2 and 4.

    I thought they were a bit harsh aye, and RTE were a bit generous.


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    #999
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Owens is actually quite consistent in interpreting laws against the favour of teams he feels are looking for a penalty, especially at crucial moments of the game. It leaves him sometimes looking inconsistent when you compare isolated calls, but you need to take the broader context of the game into account. You had Ireland needing a penalty to win, and arguably the best 9 in the world engineering things at each ruck. The scope to manufacture a penalty there is huge, and I feel he's right to want a clearer infringement in that situation than he might need earlier on in the game.

    Having said that, he really should have carded Vahaamahina at some stage.


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    #1000
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,337 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Owens is actually quite consistent in interpreting laws against the favour of teams he feels are looking for a penalty, especially at crucial moments of the game. It leaves him sometimes looking inconsistent when you compare isolated calls, but you need to take the broader context of the game into account. You had Ireland needing a penalty to win, and arguably the best 9 in the world engineering things at each ruck. The scope to manufacture a penalty there is huge, and I feel he's right to want a clearer infringement in that situation than he might need earlier on in the game.

    ... New Zealand, 2013.


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    #1001
    Sean Kinsella
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Sean Kinsella


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Nigel basically switched off his 'offside in the breakdown' radar for most of the last 5 minutes.

    The French were offside with some regularity TBH.

    Do that long enough and you can stifle the All Blacks to some extent.


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    #1002
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,295 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Are you referring to him pinging McGrath? That was a different situation - one where we were ahead, and were trying to kill off the game. But again, it falls under his general philosophy of interpreting the laws in a way that encourages teams to play rugby. So if you're behind, and need a penalty, it needs to be clear cut; if you're ahead and need to recycle a few times to kill off the game, you better be squeaky clean.

    I'm not saying he's right, or wrong, just that he is consistent once you factor in the context, and teams should (and I suspect do) know that.

    There was some obvious penalties to be given to Ireland in that final phase of play..

    But that doesn't really matter now


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    #1003
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Let's all take a moment to appreciate Lamerat's lolariously premature celebration:

    440670.png


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    #1004
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    It surprised me greatly that Vahaamahina managed to get pinged 4 times for pretty much the same infringement and yet didn’t get a card. You’d almost expect a team card for that, but for one player to do it consistently it should lead to a card.


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    #1005
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Okay guys we're straying off topic here. Try to limit the discussion to the game itself.


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    #1006
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    .ak wrote: »
    Okay guys we're straying off topic here. Try to limit the discussion to the game itself.
    Could we move these posts to the laws thread?
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055520903&page=4

    MOD: Done


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    #1007
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I’ll never understand how anyone can say that Ireland were lucky to win that game. Sure France missed a penalty to take it out to 4 points, but we’d missed one earlier ourselves so the two pretty much cancel each other out. Besides that Ireland dominated territory and possession (about 3:1), we had the better set piece, we were better at ruck time and we led for 70 minutes of the game. France got a breakaway try scored through an individual, not a team effort, to put them in the lead when they had never looked like getting in front at all up to that point. They held the lead for just 10 minutes all game. Where exactly can anyone look to in order to come to the conclusion that we were lucky to win that!? I’m genuinely baffled at that opinion.


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    #1008
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Yeah it was a game deserved to win but could have no complaints had we lost


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    #1009
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Yeah it was a game deserved to win but could have no complaints had we lost

    I wish! :(


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    #1010
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Yeah it was a game deserved to win but could have no complaints had we lost

    I’d agree with that, contradictory though it may sound. We never put the game away and as such <cliche alert> gave a sucker an even break. But we were the better team and leading for almost 90% of the game was a fair reflection of what was happening on the pitch.


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    #1011
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Isabelle still won though right?

    2371783-isabelle-ithurburu-soiree-des-animateu-950x0-2.jpg


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    #1012
    mangobob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭mangobob


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I’ll never understand how anyone can say that Ireland were lucky to win that game. Sure France missed a penalty to take it out to 4 points, but we’d missed one earlier ourselves so the two pretty much cancel each other out. Besides that Ireland dominated territory and possession (about 3:1), we had the better set piece, we were better at ruck time and we led for 70 minutes of the game. France got a breakaway try scored through an individual, not a team effort, to put them in the lead when they had never looked like getting in front at all up to that point. They held the lead for just 10 minutes all game. Where exactly can anyone look to in order to come to the conclusion that we were lucky to win that!? I’m genuinely baffled at that opinion.

    Look I am absolutely over the moon that we won, and it took me hours to come down off the high of that last four minutes of sheer fupping epicness. As I have said on another site, it was a piece of skill for the ages. I simply cannot say enough great things about it.

    But that shouldn't mask the fact that we got out of there with a win by the skin of our teeth against a side that we were rightly expected to dominate. It was in some ways quite a flawed performance. We were worryingly blunt in attack, never even looked like scoring a try and we failed to put France away after 65 odd minutes of controlling the match. As a team we were vastly more settled and experienced, with a far superior coach and tremendous strength in depth. The French fielded a team with a 19 year old fly half making his first appearance, a raft of unfamiliar combinations, a bench with a combined total of 16 caps (vs 200 odd on ours) and were playing their very first 6 Nations game under a coach whose resume is vastly inferior to ours. The conditions are no excuse, as they were the same for both sides. It should never have been that close.

    The fact is that in the end, we got out of jail BIG TIME and yes luck most certainly played a part in it. Johnny missed a crucial penalty. Then Belleau missed a sitter. Those two events have no relation to each other. Just because one happened, doesn't mean the other must happen to cancel it out. They are totally independent, and it was sheer luck that the French player chosen to kick missed it. We also got lucky that Machenaud wasn't the one kicking it, because you can bet your house on it that he would have got it. Its also fair to say that several of those French penalties were unforced, so a significant portion of our points were gifts.

    All of the positives you stated about Ireland's performance are true. But acknowledging that we got lucky isn't diminishing what we achieved out there. Its simply being honest. In every close game you need a little luck, whether that means little things going for you at crucial times or at the very least not going against you when they could have. Its like the infamous loss to the All Blacks in Dublin. The AB's were lucky to win that. How? They got lucky in the sense that Nigel gave them a very kind decision at a crucial time, and then they got lucky again that Luke Fitzgerald charged the missed conversion too early giving them another chance to win it instead of simply drawing. But that doesn't diminish in any way how incredible their last play was, as they still needed the skill and the composure to capitalise on it.

    Saying that Ireland were the better team and yet still were lucky to win is not a contradiction. Its simply the nature of sport.


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    #1013
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    We should have brought Carbery on to close out the game


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    #1014
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    mangobob wrote: »
    Look I am absolutely over the moon that we won, and it took me hours to come down off the high of that last four minutes of sheer fupping epicness. As I have said on another site, it was a piece of skill for the ages. I simply cannot say enough great things about it.

    But that shouldn't mask the fact that we got out of there with a win by the skin of our teeth against a side that we were rightly expected to dominate. It was in some ways quite a flawed performance. We were worryingly blunt in attack, never even looked like scoring a try and we failed to put France away after 65 odd minutes of controlling the match. As a team we were vastly more settled and experienced, with a far superior coach and tremendous strength in depth. The French fielded a team with a 19 year old fly half making his first appearance, a raft of unfamiliar combinations, a bench with a combined total of 16 caps (vs 200 odd on ours) and were playing their very first 6 Nations game under a coach whose resume is vastly inferior to ours. The conditions are no excuse, as they were the same for both sides. It should never have been that close.

    The fact is that in the end, we got out of jail BIG TIME and yes luck most certainly played a part in it. Johnny missed a crucial penalty. Then Belleau missed a sitter. Those two events have no relation to each other. Just because one happened, doesn't mean the other must happen to cancel it out. They are totally independent, and it was sheer luck that the French player chosen to kick missed it. We also got lucky that Machenaud wasn't the one kicking it, because you can bet your house on it that he would have got it. Its also fair to say that several of those French penalties were unforced, so a significant portion of our points were gifts.

    All of the positives you stated about Ireland's performance are true. But acknowledging that we got lucky isn't diminishing what we achieved out there. Its simply being honest. In every close game you need a little luck, whether that means little things going for you at crucial times or at the very least not going against you when they could have. Its like the infamous loss to the All Blacks in Dublin. The AB's were lucky to win that. How? They got lucky in the sense that Nigel gave them a very kind decision at a crucial time, and then they got lucky again that Luke Fitzgerald charged the missed conversion too early giving them another chance to win it instead of simply drawing. But that doesn't diminish in any way how incredible their last play was, as they still needed the skill and the composure to capitalise on it.

    Saying that Ireland were the better team and yet still were lucky to win is not a contradiction. Its simply the nature of sport.

    We’re royally into semantics here now I reckon. I suppose it all depends on the context of the posts when people use the word “lucky”. As you describe it above I’d probably agree. Similar to my last post where I agreed with Bridge93.

    Some people have been using it in the context of “we never should have won it, we robbed the French and we were lucky to do so”. That is really the point I was addressing. France could have considered themselves incredibly lucky had they won it. They stayed in touch for most of the game, not always legally. And then a moment of individual brilliance turned things. It wasn’t a planned move or one that they earned by building pressure etc. They never looked like getting on top before that. Much like people were saying we struggled to break them down, they struggled to break us down. Even more than we did.

    We were the better team in pretty much every way. We also gave them that even break I mentioned with our difficulties converting our pressure into points. We seem to always have 1 game each Championship where we have that issue. Remember Wales last year? We had it in the first game this year which we won and can now spend the next few weeks addressing those issues. I don’t doubt that we will.


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    #1015
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I thought we played the first half really, really well. It wasn't expansive but we were very successful in forcing France to start with the ball in their own half and we proved they were totally incapable of threatening from there. The mistakes they made there helped us dominate that first half. The only 3 they got were from a silly error that we made but that can always happen.

    If the 2nd half we completely lost control of the game though and we were outscored 10-3 until that magical bit of play at the end. That is really poor. I could totally accept no line breaks in the first half while we were containing France and taking our shots, but in the 2nd half we should never have lost control of the game (through our own errors, many unforced) and we should have taken our opportunities. It wasn't the referees fault, it wasn't that we were out-committed by some magical French force, we just lost control.

    We didn't necessarily win the game through luck, it was a quality performance in the end to win the game, but in the end we played way beneath ourselves.


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    #1016
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Ok so I love the optimism of Irish fans but really some of the posts on here are deluded. How many times have we won in France?

    I had a quick look at the team that last won in France. Out of the starting 15 we had 7 players left and one of those(Toner) was a sub. So for a lot of those players they have never won in France. Some never even played against France or in France......

    Ireland: R Kearney; Trimble(gone), O'Driscoll(gone), D'Arcy(gone), D Kearney(gone); Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Ross(gone), Toner(sub), O'Connell(gone), O'Mahony, Henry(gone), Heaslip(gone).

    The weather was shocking and exactly what the French wanted. It turned the match into a battle of the front row and the French front row isn't too bad. Rugby is the national sport in France, they have 14 professional clubs to pick from and they have the largest budget in the World.

    Anyone with knowledge of the game said before the match we should win on paper but a number of unknowns. One of the major ones was the French team had a new coach, had a number of weeks together before the match and the weather. It was called out 3-4 days before the match it would be soaking wet. I don't know how many "reviews" I have seen and not one mentions the weather. They put the camera up into the sky and showed it lashing rain so I don't know how people missed it.....

    If you watch the Top 14 then you will know each match is a slugfest, front row and scrums. The french love it, what happened on Saturday was exactly that so it suited the French. Also do you actually think they would roll over and let Ireland hammer them.

    Lets take some history
    2012 Draw
    2013 Draw
    2014 Ireland win by 2
    2015 Ireland win by 7
    2016 France win by 1
    2017 Ireland win by 10

    Don't see many hammerings going on do you?

    All of those games you can the French team was in worse situation, they had to go back to Top 14, didn't have time in camp etc. So why would anyone think this was gong to be a walk in the park?

    Give it 2 months, a nice sunny day in Paris and put the same Irish team out and see what a difference a dry pitch


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    #1017
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Ok so I love the optimism of Irish fans but really some of the posts on here are deluded. How many times have we won in France?

    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.


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    #1018
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Even if you look at the French home losses over the last few years, they generally only lose by a score. NZ beat them by 20 points in November, but that was a complete outlier. For the record, my take on the game on Friday was:
    molloyjh wrote: »
    Maybe they perform really well? It's highly unlikely, but the thing with the French is that it's not utterly unheard of that they buck the trend of recent form to beat a team that are favoured by all and sundry. There are some very talented individuals in that side let's not forget.

    The weather is meant to be a bit crappy tomorrow as well. I don't think that will help us as it could see the game being dragged into a bit of a dogfight, like 2 years ago. And any low scoring game in the 6Ns can go either way. They just need to be stubborn and dogged and they can stay in the game, which is all they'll need up to the last 10. Personally I'd prefer a clear, dry day where we can look to play a bit more.

    Still though, we are rightly favourites for this. If we turn up and deliver even 90% of what we're capable of we should win.

    I don't think we managed to get close to 90% of our potential so in reality the result is probably not far off what I would have envisaged. We have a lot of areas to improve on, but I for one an delighted that people are not simply happy with winning in Paris. It shows where this team is that we expect as much as we do from them.


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    #1019
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Ok so I love the optimism of Irish fans but really some of the posts on here are deluded. How many times have we won in France?

    I don't really care how many times we've won in France. When you look at the players we had out on the pitch, a team full of extremely talented players who have been performing for their provinces, the team did not show up as the sum of its parts. I find that a bit disappointing. We can be much better than that.


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    #1020
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.

    They haven’t been one of the better teams in the last 10 years, they have been getting progressively worse, but have been bad and yet we still struggle against them. Any team that can successfully slow down our ball, will cause us problems. Much as you are willing to ignore it, the weather made that eminently easier for the French on Saturday. Add to that the inability to analyze and prepare for them it was never going to be easy. We play structured rugby, with lots of focus on analysis and research. How could that have been done for Saturday?


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    #1021
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    When was the last time we went to France to play a French team who haven't won in 8 games while we were also ranked 3rd in the world? Never, so this really isn't that relevant.

    The reason we rarely win in France is because they've historically been one of the better teams in the competition. If that was still true, I'd have a lot more time for this sort of argument. In truth, France couldn't beat Japan a couple of months ago, nor probably the worst Springbok team in living memory, and still managed to nearly beat us. You can't just wave that off with a reference to the history books.

    Just as we wouldn't have accepted a lack of performance against that woeful Springboks team last November, despite us historically also having trouble against Southern Hemisphere sides.

    We have a great record at home against the Boks so how can you point to that game?

    France have been a mess for years and we never got the better of them. Hence why I posted the history.

    France hadn't won in November and sacked the coaching team, yes if the old coaching team was still in place that might be argument but they have gone. Also note the last time Ireland got rid of a coach mid World Cup cycle the following two 6 nations they won it.

    Many a great Irish team has gone to France with lots written about them, except for 2 times those teams have been sent home with tail between their legs.....


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